Combat Logs

Kenway

Kalila said:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/rsdsC8P3

This was fun. What do?

Be bard! Trueparry left!

Exelethril

DWB is probably hard to balance, the lack of hinder (which gets you destroyed by a majority of momentum classes if you get poor rng) is compensated for by the playstyle being skewed heavily towards fast breaks and damage, which destroys non-artied people harder than most classes otherwise would.

I mean, if you were to place the two extremes against each other - a heavily artied occie with auto-follow vs an artied DWB, I think the occie would win 80% of the time because of clumsiness/lethargy/hierophant hecate speed/DWB momentum necessity but if the occie wasn't artied, it's a different story. It's a P2W problem 

Jovolo

Could all of DWB use a rework? It was my least favourite during the design process and after release it's the most uninspired and least creative/interesting Knight Spec imo. Maybe back to the drawing board

Llesvelt

Apostate VS Runewarden
Very long fight with him constantly running around and seemingly me unable to stop him from mount jumping over runewarden stone walls into runes over and over and over again as my stack progressed. Any tips on how to combat this? Thanks
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/rpskS2eI

Amranu

Daeir said:

Random thought, wonder of gem of negation severs Shaman attunements. Hmmm.

It doesn't

Dochitha

Kalila said:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/rsdsC8P3

This was fun. What do?

Yeah for that round I stacked thurisaz into damage kills. You got me after that when I wanted to go a longer route doing pulp. Also, if you I hit distort most setups and kills are lost.

Like @Exelethril said, DWB can't afflict hence balanced with quick breaks and damage. Totally hard to balance I agree. Even myself against another DWB I die to the same thing, I am all artied, still died. Defensive arties can't beat DWB's damage output / breaks.

Atalkez said:

I don't believe so, but unsure. Could have abused reflect to force his first hit to miss, which would have let you stand before the mangle came in.

Oh nice, this is a good one. Also, tumble with distort alone screws up knights. I will have to break all 4 limbs to max out tumble time and hope to get a kill within that time frame.

Atalkez said:

5.2k health died in 7 hits.

Dont feel bad, 7.2k health I die in 8-9.

I think the break > mangle on next whirl has to go. It's way too much prone time for a class that already has the most guaranteed kill sequence in the game.

Break > Mangle can go, just has to be compensated with another kill path. DWB currently have a single kill path, the pulp, and this kill path, due to momentum requirement, can't be innovative at all. Damage is just bully. I'd give up damage for more variety of kill paths and open up more defensive challenges for people fighting against a DWB, aside from room hinders, kai cripple spams, apply head on leg breaks (ah this alone needs damage kill as an alternative punish, so damage can't go).

I think an alternative is to have assault torso path turned into instakill like pulp, now assault torso is just damage bully again.

I also hope momentum 7 and momentum 8 (full) has different messages, now both are same message and so many times I went ahead breaking everything to realize I lack 1 momentum to assault...

More people should play DWB and maybe it can be shaped better.

Dochitha

For everyone else, DWB pulp sequence requires full 8 momentum, anything less the sequence will fail. Double breaking at the same time expend leg to prone will consume 3 momentum, DWB has to then doublewhirl once to get back to 7, which is required by assault head. Without 7, assault can't happen, pulp can't happen. Assault pushes head break to a full level, and pulp requires mangled (L2 head) and prone. DWB also has to complete this within 8s (before people stands up) and within that 8s, rebounding will show up once, the sequence is very tight, but if well executed and target didn't tumble out of room hinder or use weird curing (Iakimen!), it's no escape.

For education purposes, this is the chart of common pulp route:
0 doublewhirl LL expend RL (breaks both legs) 
2.1 doublewhirl head head (breaks head)
4.2 assault head
7.0 pulp
(please factor in fracture once to take down rebounding, or needing to leap over a wall some times)

This time chart is assuming L3 morningstar, without L3 star I am not sure anyone can do both fracturing rebounding and leaping over wall and still get to pulp.

Antonius

Pulp goes through rebounding. Rebounding takes 8.5 seconds to come up. Max momentum fracture is about 1 second, I think. There's nothing tight about the execution at all, at least in terms of rebounding. The only time rebounding causes problems is if you screw up and start your execution way too late.

You also don't need level 3 morningstars to do it. The timing was also really lenient with level 2s, at the very least.

Dochitha

Antonius said:

Pulp goes through rebounding. Rebounding takes 8.5 seconds to come up. Max momentum fracture is about 1 second, I think. There's nothing tight about the execution at all, at least in terms of rebounding. The only time rebounding causes problems is if you screw up and start your execution too late.

You also don't need level 3 morningstars to do it. The timing was also really lenient with level 2s, at the very least.

I kept forgetting that. Thanks, gonna improve on my rebounding handling during the sequence. So after assault I will ignore rebounding. yush. Still L2s. I bought L3s and didn't feel much difference from L2 tbh...L1 to L2 is like 1 hit less to prep if I recall correctly... 

Armali

Hint: You can also explore options that don't require 8 momentum to pulp. They exist. They're also terrifying.

Farrah

Yeah, but if overused, it would likely just get further nerfed. Gem of negation is likely still very overpowered against certain classes. It's one of those things nobody really bothers using.

It does not heal limb damage or restoration level broken limbs anymore, though, to answer @Jovolo.

Llesvelt

Apostate vs vkeep curseward prep class
Wondering what I can do against this as this was stupid
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/jPsEcsuo

Calira

Give more confusion. Confusion ups the curseward EQ time massively

Exelethril

I think your problem is you're ramming "F1" before knowing what "F1" does

Llesvelt

Exelethril said:

I think your problem is you're ramming "F1" before knowing what "F1" does

If your speaking of the functions I have implemented to choose and afflict my target, it is a bit more complicated then a simple 'do-repeat' function

Calira said:

Give more confusion. Confusion ups the curseward EQ time massively

Thank you for your input it is of great help

Dochitha

Llesvelt said:

Apostate vs vkeep curseward prep class
Wondering what I can do against this as this was stupid
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/jPsEcsuo

Same problem with many momentum classes. Those breach that you have to do completely slows down your affliction output. That's why I find it hard to convince myself to play affiliation classes anymore, I come from affliction classes background and now totally like monk in full plate. 

Llesvelt

Dochitha said:

Llesvelt said:

Apostate vs vkeep curseward prep class
Wondering what I can do against this as this was stupid
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/jPsEcsuo

Same problem with many momentum classes. Those breach that you have to do completely slows down your affliction output. That's why I find it hard to convince myself to play affiliation classes anymore, I come from affliction classes background and now totally like monk in full plate. 

I feel the problem is that it is repeatable on such a quick balance that (at least in the case of Apostate) zero offense alone can be garnered. It was brought up in this round of classleads so hopefully it will be noticed

Taryius

Even if someone spams curseward, you should be able to afflict faster than they cure but it'll be a lot slower..

Try using mana drain strategies, constant cursewarding will hit their mana so let your dagger and fiend lose on them to rack bleeding and damage.
Can also belch, just let them simmer in that while they stand still
Stick confusion, to drastically increase the time it takes them to curseward

Atalkez

Also doesn't look like you're using queue'ing which will help you keep pace with cward better.

You're likely not going to see much change in how curseward works. It just recently got changed to actually be useful, as it's supposed to be the shield equivalent for curses. Breach/Aff is the same as raze/flay etc.

Llesvelt

Taryius said:

Even if someone spams curseward, you should be able to afflict faster than they cure but it'll be a lot slower..

Try using mana drain strategies, constant cursewarding will hit their mana so let your dagger and fiend lose on them to rack bleeding and damage.
Can also belch, just let them simmer in that while they stand still
Stick confusion, to drastically increase the time it takes them to curseward

From what I have seen and have been told by those that know more than me about the class, that is not the case. I will get exact numbers to check myself very soon but as I see it while constant curseward will drain mana a bit it is not a substantial drain. Also even with fiend and daegger hunt, with the inability to stack affliction to hide hemophilia it will go no where (please note that this in in 1v1 situations). The belch strat would work IF you dont keep food with you but most who have seen the strat do. I have yet to try confusion but again, as I am told it will not do much in 1v1.

Atalkez said:

Also doesn't look like you're using queue'ing which will help you keep pace with cward better.

You're likely not going to see much change in how curseward works. It just recently got changed to actually be useful, as it's supposed to be the shield equivalent for curses. Breach/Aff is the same as raze/flay etc.

I am using queue actually. I just gag the server replies. It also seems to me that curseward raises faster than aura but again I will have to get the hard numbers.

EDIT: so aura takes roughly 8.5 seconds to come back up while curseward is instant with roughly 4.5 (4.0) second balance

Farrah

Llesvelt said:

Dochitha said:

Llesvelt said:

Apostate vs vkeep curseward prep class
Wondering what I can do against this as this was stupid
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/jPsEcsuo

Same problem with many momentum classes. Those breach that you have to do completely slows down your affliction output. That's why I find it hard to convince myself to play affiliation classes anymore, I come from affliction classes background and now totally like monk in full plate. 

I feel the problem is that it is repeatable on such a quick balance that (at least in the case of Apostate) zero offense alone can be garnered. It was brought up in this round of classleads so hopefully it will be noticed

Curseward is a shield equivalent that is .5 seconds slower than shield. It's not actually "quick" by achaean standards.

Ryzeth

Curseward on keepup is easier for Shaman/Apostate to deal with than it is for pretty much any other class to deal with shielding on keepup. I wouldn't expect any nerfs to curseward considering, as Atalkez said, it only recently got changed to actually be worth using.

Curseward is also equivalent to shield, not rebounding.

Farrah

Ryzeth said:

Curseward on keepup is easier for Shaman/Apostate to deal with than it is for pretty much any other class to deal with shielding on keepup. I wouldn't expect any nerfs to curseward considering, as Atalkez said, it only recently got changed to actually be worth using.

Curseward is also equivalent to shield, not rebounding.

Though, now that we're mentioning rebounding, some classes have to deal with both shield (4 sec eq) and rebounding (every 8.5-9 secs, no eq). Compared to apostate dealing only with curseward (4.5 sec eq), a weaker version of shield.

Ryzeth

Farrah said:
Though, now that we're mentioning rebounding, some classes have to deal with both shield (4 sec eq) and rebounding (every 8.5-9 secs, no eq). Compared to apostate dealing only with curseward (4.5 sec eq), a weaker version of shield.

Exactly my point. Quite a few of those classes also have to contend with parrying. Hell even tumble isn't a factor for Apostate.

Llesvelt

may I ask how tumble is not a factor?

Ryzeth

You can fear to stop it. Can also stop it with deadeyes sleep/sleep, especially potent if you're using nightmare and you've stuck hypersomnia on them. Metawake's deadly to use against an Apostate.

If you have the luxury you can also soulspear them while they're still off balance from tumble/touch cloak. Of course not 'reliable' unless you're getting a lot of spears, but yeah.

Calira

Ryzeth said:

Farrah said:
Though, now that we're mentioning rebounding, some classes have to deal with both shield (4 sec eq) and rebounding (every 8.5-9 secs, no eq). Compared to apostate dealing only with curseward (4.5 sec eq), a weaker version of shield.

Hell even tumble isn't a factor for Apostate.

If the Apostate has to spend resources dealing with the tumble, then it's definitely a factor

Alrena

You can outpace curseward keepup. Generally it's breach, breach again, double curse in, breach again. You get used to the rhythm. Note also that it means they're not (often) attacking. Note that it will drain their mana, and if they don't have L3 mana regen, sip ring or insane amounts of mana, you can probably get them in trouble this way. Remember to use Demon Stain to lower their Int by 2, making curseward cost even more (in terms of percentage of max mana). Again depending on how artied they are, you can get a sap or two in there if you see their mana drop, or a taint to keep them sipping health.

That said, sticking confusion isn't that simple with curseward keepup. First you need to stick impatience, then confusion. Your target is also using tree and may have passive curing. At that point you're better off sticking physicals first, because one goldenseal eat and they'll focus it away. Confusion is also not as big of a delay as it used to be, further diminishing the worth. Still good, certainly, but it's not as simple as some people make it out to be.

As for tumble, fear/cowardice can stop it. But only if they're not paralysed or prone. If they are either of these, then the tumble will still work, and you wasted momentum. Sometimes it's better to just let them go. Or if you're close to a lock, just to follow and keep attacking.

I don't think curseward in itself is an issue, because as said before it's the same thing that other classes have to deal with in the form of shields. It's just as annoying for them to fight someone with touch shield on keepup to slow prep you as it is for us to fight someone who does the same with curseward. There's ways around it, but you need to be a little creative. It's really not easy to fight someone who gets that defensive with passive curing -and- an active cure that's hard to stop. I won't say it's impossible, just not easy.

Ryzeth

There's also quite a number of people who don't realise/forgot they put curseward on keepup. Not saying that's the case with Anze, but I found too many to keep track of when I was Shaman. And a few when I was messing around with Apostate while using Lucrescents.

Saw a couple from Imperian who did it too, since curseward doesn't cost balance there (but can only be put up every 10s or so), so they think it functions the same way here.

Curseward on keepup is gonna get you killed versus smart people.

Xaden

Has gotten me killed several times before. Have since removed it from keepup