Combat Logs

Xinna

Is blaming losses on the opponent being "auto" the new thing now? Kinda like "You beat me so your class is OP"?

Will be better off if you just learn how to fight whatever is killing you.

Exelethril

Xinna said:

Is blaming losses on the opponent being "auto" the new thing now? Kinda like "You beat me so your class is OP"?

Will be better off if you just learn how to fight whatever is killing you.

Yep, I've started to realize I do have an outdated mindset along with the need to learn and adapt better in today's environment - which I plan on fixing.

In my defense, I've never complained about losing/automation or turned down fights except when it comes to occultists. But yeah, I plan on doing the latter part of your post.

Talysin

I don't think your mindset is outdated. I think that overly optimized/auto offenses take the fun out of combat.

Atalkez

Then you might as well not fight. That's the way combat is these days. To me though, It's a pride thing for me personally. Doing it myself instead of mashing 1 button makes me feel like I'm doing more. Some people work on their automated offense for hours at a time so it's still an accomplishment for them. To each their own.

Xinna

Talysin said:

I don't think your mindset is outdated. I think that overly optimized/auto offenses take the fun out of combat.

I would say that a good number of people think this, but that's a reason for you to do your own manually. Why does it really matter what your opponent is doing? If they have fun with it their own way, who cares? Letting people each do it the way they enjoy means more people to fight, which means more fun.

It's just the idea that somehow some people automating makes it less fun for those who manual - that's really not true. Have the people complaining about Seragorn fought Ayoxele? Fully manual occie who pwns just as many people.

Jovolo

I think it's probably more the satisfaction in the fight, be it victory or defeat. I don't think it's a valid excuse for defeat, but that doesn't change how it would feel. When I tried to come back with my Priest Jaelyth, I was fighting mostly manual just on the old Paving system and just could not keep up against some of the more automated fighters. Sure there are some that are just plain better than me, like I can't even get near to beating Xinna, but there were also others I felt I was better than in terms of creativity/knowledge but still got beaten. It sucked the fun out of it and was basically the final nail in the coffin for me. This is of course a failure of my own to adapt and isn't at all an attempt at disparaging those who have adapted to the more automated nature of todays combat, but I thought I'd at least give that perspective of the discussion.

Atalkez

Part of your problem is longevity too. From what I can tell you never can settle down in a character and class long enough to fully flesh out how you fight as that class. Maybe I'm wrong, just my perspective. Knowledge alone isn't going to win a fight for you anymore. I think that's part of the changes too. Used to if you didn't know how to cure right, you were dead 100% given a setup. Now it's really easy to do a quick prior swap and save yourself from that situation. Serverside has made alot of this worse kindof because people can cure probably better than ever. Practically makes it so that you can rely on your offense without even concerning yourself with what your opponent is doing except for the "oh shit" scenarios to watch for. It's an odd dichotomy right now.

Talysin

Xinna said:

Talysin said:

I don't think your mindset is outdated. I think that overly optimized/auto offenses take the fun out of combat.

I would say that a good number of people think this, but that's a reason for you to do your own manually. Why does it really matter what your opponent is doing? If they have fun with it their own way, who cares? Letting people each do it the way they enjoy means more people to fight, which means more fun.

It's just the idea that somehow some people automating makes it less fun for those who manual - that's really not true. Have the people complaining about Seragorn fought Ayoxele? Fully manual occie who pwns just as many people.

I get where you're coming from, but it's about as fun from my perspective as playing chess with a computer vs. a person. I enjoy the psychological aspect of combat, and it's incredibly difficult to get into your head if a computer is making decisions for you. It's sort of a hollow loss, as if your opponent was using steroids or something.

I understand the incredible work it takes to make an automated system, and it's really cool such a thing is possible. However, I feel there is something lost in the original intent of Achaean combat when people auto their offenses.

Nizana

I like controlling what things I attack with, but I prefer to automate my venom selection/song choice/harmonics upkeep as much as possible. Whenever I fight, I remember some 5 or 10 things I forgot to do, and proceed to automate/make big flashy lights on the things I need to remember so that I fight as best as I can. Otherwise, I just get overly excited and spam jab jab jab jab JAB!! and don't even realize I haven't been singing any voicecraft skills, my harmonics were down, and my songbird flew away for the next 5 minutes before I die. (newbie combatant 4lyfe

Jacen

I'm considering automating my offense more since the new monk changes just due to the variety of combinations you can use. I haven't had much time to look at it, been far more focused on estimating the limb counter equations, but right now its a bit overwhelming and I'm not sure how I'll be able to choose and string together the kick|throw/stance/punch/punch inside of the 2-3 second balance times.

Austere

We should have a poll that's "Are you automated?". I think the results would be surprising for a magnitude of reasons.  Problem is, half the people that are automated would lie and the other half would click the "partial" answer.  

Atalkez

Well, you would have to decide to what degree of automation you are okay with before you call it automation.

If auto tumble on a double break automation? Or auto restore/smoke rebounding versus an Infernal when your 2nd limb breaks? Or if you even use serverside curing at all?

There are lots of ways that we all use some form of automated logic for something at this point in the game, and to say anyone is 100% manual would be wrong (unless there is still someone out there, which I doubt).

Vakvyr

@Atalkez
Defense is not the issue. The issue is "press a button and watch someone die."

Kuy

Vakvyr said:

@Atalkez
Defense is not the issue. The issue is "press a button and watch someone die."

No one does this, no matter how much people think they do.

Exelethril

Kuy said:

Vakvyr said:

@Atalkez
Defense is not the issue. The issue is "press a button and watch someone die."

No one does this, no matter how much people think they do.

Well, there are reasons why games disallow things like aimbots - since you're not actually killing people with your own personal decisions/reaction times but rather, a program is helping you choose and perform actions to kill other players more efficiently than the norm. In Achaea, it's hard to draw the line with what's considered "automation" and certain classes amplify this problem more so than others.

Not shameless self-promotion but rather an example of what unautomated combat looks like, it can be fun even if flawed and less efficient -

Mizik

How do you record?

Mishgul

Kuy said:

Vakvyr said:

@Atalkez
Defense is not the issue. The issue is "press a button and watch someone die."

No one does this, no matter how much people think they do.

Very easy to code this for apostate. Can even chase people who run, and thanks to serverside queuing, can do it with almost minimal latency, barely losing any time on offence. 

Whatever I am going to do, I am reacting to something that the opponent does. Making a trigger for this is way more efficient. Building a series of triggers to react exactly how I would when I am hitting macros is trivial. 

Andregor

Exelethril said:

Kuy said:

Vakvyr said:

@Atalkez
Defense is not the issue. The issue is "press a button and watch someone die."

No one does this, no matter how much people think they do.

Well, there are reasons why games disallow things like aimbots - since you're not actually killing people with your own personal decisions/reaction times but rather, a program is helping you choose and perform actions to kill other players more efficiently than the norm. In Achaea, it's hard to draw the line with what's considered "automation" and certain classes amplify this problem more so than others.

Not shameless self-promotion but rather an example of what unautomated combat looks like, it can be fun even if flawed and less efficient -

@Exelethril how do you move the limb counter to the next line?

Brean

Exelethril said:

Kuy said:

Vakvyr said:

@Atalkez
Defense is not the issue. The issue is "press a button and watch someone die."

No one does this, no matter how much people think they do.

Well, there are reasons why games disallow things like aimbots - since you're not actually killing people with your own personal decisions/reaction times but rather, a program is helping you choose and perform actions to kill other players more efficiently than the norm. In Achaea, it's hard to draw the line with what's considered "automation" and certain classes amplify this problem more so than others.

Not shameless self-promotion but rather an example of what unautomated combat looks like, it can be fun even if flawed and less efficient -

Those echoes, jelly.  Found my next project

Kuy

Note: I did not say no one can do this. I said no one [who is a current threat] currently does.

Mishgul

It's definitely been done by prominent pvpers. 

Xinna

Since this boring conversation involves no combat logs!

Super @Medi gank protection (what happens when I trash talk a huge group of Targossians while standing alone at a smudged defendable):

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/60c7d5ce

And my perpetual state of "almost dead" during a raid on Targossas:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d3dbd8b4

Antidas

Xinna said:

Since this boring conversation involves no combat logs!

Super @Medi gank protection (what happens when I trash talk a huge group of Targossians while standing alone at a smudged defendable):

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/60c7d5ce

And my perpetual state of "almost dead" during a raid on Targossas:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d3dbd8b4

Ugh those logs both make me so depressed. Mostly the second. There were like 4 priests, and not one of them would make you headslam or kick or something to drop that goddamn lyre. They just stood there smacking your barrier. Weep.

Mizik

@Xinna pvp combat logs please.

If I wanted to see PvE bashing logs I'd ask Penwize.

losers

Achilles

Antidas said:

Xinna said:

Since this boring conversation involves no combat logs!

Super @Medi gank protection (what happens when I trash talk a huge group of Targossians while standing alone at a smudged defendable):

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/60c7d5ce

And my perpetual state of "almost dead" during a raid on Targossas:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d3dbd8b4

Ugh those logs both make me so depressed. Mostly the second. There were like 4 priests, and not one of them would make you headslam or kick or something to drop that goddamn lyre. They just stood there smacking your barrier. Weep.

Truth, every time I see us with dragons and devotionists flailing against a lyre I wonder if it would be more fun to play a FPS.

That's why I added this.

send ("PT LYRE - Blast or force " ..matches[2])

Antidas

Mizik said:

@Xinna pvp combat logs please.

If I wanted to see PvE bashing logs I'd ask Penwize.

losers

Low blow

Xinna

Mizik said:

@Xinna pvp combat logs please.

If I wanted to see PvE bashing logs I'd ask Penwize.

losers

It's a gank thread! Does it only count if the gank succeeds?

Rangor

How do you get the.

Lua error:[string "if limbtarget == "left leg" then..."]:7: attempt to index field '?' (a nil value)

line?

Jovolo

Set up an alias that does display(limbtarget) and see if the echo returned is null

Tharvis

woop : https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/32768d18

(yes I know the echo is wrong)