Targossas Subdivision Petition

Antidas

As there does not appear to be one yet, this is an official petition to -please- remove Shallam's subs from Targossas, and allow us the chance to start a brand new one. If there are any serious issues with doing this, at the very least tell us what they are and allow us to try to address these problems. Its better than just being stuck with the old subdivision with absolutely no explanation or apparent reason.

@Tecton @Sarapis @Aurora @Deucalion

Achilles

Nevermind, Jacen not worth it.

Anyways, yes there is a problem with magically moving our entire subdivision from Shallam to Targossas.  This is pretty surprising because the one thing admin hasn't done to this point is cut corners until now but this was one huge corner.

Silas

Yes, please.

I don't want to sound ungrateful, but I liked the flavour of Shallam's subs where they were, floating amidst the wreckage of the fallen city, and I really like how Targ's subs are designed to be one of the islands. But having the Shallamese plots and houses randomly appear, reskinned, in a brand new city on a brand new island with no explanation is just weird. Plus, even with the reskinning, the existence of those plots and houses stops us doing anything with the subs, since we have to build around Shallam's crappy layout.

As Delphinus said in rants, it's not like the functionality isn't there to allow people to move their plots should they wish given that housing relocation was added like a week ago, so I really just don't understand why this decision was made.

Katzchen

Plot moving is only within a subdivision, not into another. I'm sure most cities would love a chance to get rid of dormant player houses, and redesign their subsdivisions rather than dealing with what was put in like a decade ago. Shallam gets a shiny new city, that's fair, but is there really any reason they should get this and others shouldn't?

Antidas

@Katzchen from an IC standpoint, it makes no sense for Targossas to magically have Shallams old subs. From an OOC standpoint, why not? New cities always have new subdivisions. Its true for every single one. Why should Targossas be any different, just because its citizens are going to be 90% the same as an old city that got destroyed?

Lianca

Maybe because a lot of the owners of houses in the old Shallam subs would be complaining that they now have to build a second/third/whatever house in the new, Targossan subs or stay in the ruins, because the house transfer only works within a single subdivision and they may not be able to afford a second 4-500 credit build?

Katzchen

@Antidas if the argument is that Targossas should get a brand spanking new subdivision, that's fine. But if you then say that owners should get to move their houses in/rebuild there for free, that's a really crazy flavour advantage for the city and for individual owners, depending on how it's done. Kind of unfair considering ALL subdivisions are a huge mess made years ago.

And if you say they can't move their houses, well people are kind of going to be pissed?

Targossas already has a 10 year design knowledge advantage, if they get that for EVERYTHING, and make it all awesome now, other cities are going to look shit in comparison. At least the Divine have been making some changes to the actual cities lately, but if they're going to get to re-do the subs, I think everyone should get that chance.

It makes total sense from an IC standpoint, but seems incredibly unfair from an OOC perspective. At least to those of us who care about flavour & layout - and actually some of those issues have combat/defense implications as well.

Kyrra

I spent 5-6k credits on my house in Cyrene and rebuilding in Ashtan royally sucked after trading in housing upgrades. Still haven't replaced the 8 or so rooms I am missing.

Antidas

@Katzchen there's already the possibility to move houses, I don't see why it'd be difficult to offer an option to move houses from shall am subs to targ subs, for some sort of moderate price. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but it sounds like your only reason for not wanting Targossas to have this is that the other cities can't have it. And tbh, thats a pretty bad reason.

@Lianca if thats the only reason why admins didn't want to give Targossas a new subdivision, then as I said above to Katzchen, I see no reason not to allow them to move houses into Targossas for a moderate price. At the very least I would like to hear this from the admins to make sure that is the reason. Personally I'm all for giving us a brand new sub and not allowing houses to be transferred, but I admit I'm slightly biased on that particular thing.

Sothantos

The solution seems fairly simple. Allowing Shallam-Targossas relocation is far better than just straight up plopping Shallam's subdivisions into Targossas, regardless of whether it's free, half price, full price, or whatever.

It's not as if people are losing their houses that will still exist in the Shallamese ruins. The underwater subdivision was a great idea, as it was pretty much a piece of floating history that should have remained for novices in the future to learn about -- it's a shame to both remove that, and mess up Targossas's subdivision in one move.

Delphinus

Katzchen said:

Plot moving is only within a subdivision, not into another.

I'd forgotten this bit, and it seems like a serious flaw -- not just for Targossas's sake, but for the system in general. For the life of me, I can't think of any reason as to why this is the case.

Katzchen

@Antidas wanting balance is a bad reason?

Katzchen

Delphinus said:

Katzchen said:

Plot moving is only within a subdivision, not into another.

I'd forgotten this bit, and it seems like a serious flaw -- not just for Targossas's sake, but for the system in general. For the life of me, I can't think of any reason as to why this is the case.

I do wish they'd make it cost more to move from one subdivision to another... maybe 200 credits instead of 50? It would be amazing if you could do this.

Achilles

@Katzchen - I don't see how people wanting their houses moved from their old city to their new city creates an imbalance.

@Antidas - Pretty sure those people who have spent thousands of credits would be upset if their house is not even connected to their home city.

Antidas

@Katzchen balance for the sake of balance is, yes. I don't know if you are a parent, but if you have kids, then you deal with it when one sibling demands to get whatever the other gets. When they grow up, its far less amusing, and viewed as childish behavior. Targossas having a new subdivison doesn't affect you or any other city in any way, and so I see no reason why them getting one means that everyone else has to get one.

@Achilles I agree, hence giving an option to move houses from Shallam sub to Targ sub for a price. I was just saying I personally wouldn't care :P

Katzchen

Achilles said:

@Katzchen - I don't see how people wanting their houses moved from their old city to their new city creates an imbalance.

@Antidas - Pretty sure those people who have spent thousands of credits would be upset if their house is not even connected to their home city.

Having one city have a brand new subdivision designed to modern standards with the care we put into achaea these days, and being able to move in only the houses their players want, when the others are a total mess full of odd rooms all over the place, (which are owned, so you can't really just re-design them) and seriously dormant empty houses which not only make it difficult to find a decent plot, but are also a security risk? I think that is an imbalance, yes.

Sothantos

It's a new city. It makes sense that we would have a new subdivision. The whole point of blowing up Shallam and being Targossas is that we should actually be Targossas, not Shallam.

edit: If you want to take the route that this is unfair because Targossas gets to start over, well, that's the whole idea of the city. Should we then not get new Houses or new streets or a new ideology because no other city gets one?

Katzchen

Antidas said:

@Katzchen balance for the sake of balance is, yes. I don't know if you are a parent, but if you have kids, then you deal with it when one sibling demands to get whatever the other gets. When they grow up, its far less amusing, and viewed as childish behavior. Targossas having a new subdivison doesn't affect you or any other city in any way, and so I see no reason why them getting one means that everyone else has to get one.

@Achilles I agree, hence giving an option to move houses from Shallam sub to Targ sub for a price. I was just saying I personally wouldn't care :P

Look at Ashtan when they had the effigy, and the combatants, and their 'freedom/carefree' ideology. Balance in achaea is a good thing, and imbalance means one faction will have an advantage, and have more of a draw to new players/alts/converts. No, we're not children, but while 'unfair' is something you have to deal with in life, it's not something that should be encouraged in game mechanics. This is why we balance classes and combat.

Now on it's own one thing like this isn't going to have this effect, but they also have indoors entrances from what I've been told, making infiltration harder, and modern design for the city, and I'm not sure if they have the effigy? Achaea is more fun when all factions have things relatively even, not when some are top heavy, or have more of a draw card.

Achilles

Katzchen said:

Achilles said:

@Katzchen - I don't see how people wanting their houses moved from their old city to their new city creates an imbalance.

@Antidas - Pretty sure those people who have spent thousands of credits would be upset if their house is not even connected to their home city.

Having one city have a brand new subdivision designed to modern standards with the care we put into achaea these days, and being able to move in only the houses their players want, when the others are a total mess full of odd rooms all over the place, (which are owned, so you can't really just re-design them) and seriously dormant empty houses which not only make it difficult to find a decent plot, but are also a security risk? I think that is an imbalance, yes.

Over time Targ subdivisions will have dormant houses everywhere as well.  Could cities have some kind of way to dealing with this issue, sure that's another topic of discussion.

And Mhaldor benefited by being one of the newer cities, the older cities like Shallam and Ashtan are a mess designed before the current war system and a lot of skills were created.

Sothantos

For the last time, we no longer have an indoors entrance.

The rest of the city is not any more defensible than any other city, either.

Katzchen

Sothantos said:

It's a new city. It makes sense that we would have a new subdivision. The whole point of blowing up Shallam and being Targossas is that we should actually be Targossas, not Shallam.

edit: If you want to take the route that this is unfair because Targossas gets to start over, well, that's the whole idea of the city. Should we then not get new Houses or new streets or a new ideology because no other city gets one?

No, because there's nothing wrong with most houses and ideologies. They aren't stuck in some half-arsed design from 2000 unless it still works. Their househalls, ethics, laws can all change.

Katzchen

Sothantos said:

For the last time, we no longer have an indoors entrance.

The rest of the city is not any more defensible than any other city, either.

Sorry, I'm not actually allowed in Targossas, so I didn't notice this changed. :P

Antidas

@Katzchen giving Targossas a new subdivision is hardly going to unbalance things, and thinking it will is ridiculous. No one is going to join the city just because we have more modern subs, and if they do, then frankly I don't want them. I won't address the rest of your post beyond simply saying that I agree with what Sothantos wrote.

Blujixapug

It makes sense that they don't want to stiff people out of their houses after destroying Shallam, but it makes no sense to undermine all the work that went into giving Targ a fresh start by importing unnecessary baggage. Offer people a full refund in room credits on houses in the Shallam subs, or let people in Targossas import houses from the Shallam subs, or whatever - there are better options than a full cut/paste job.

Veldrin

I'd have preferred the option of purchasing a plot in the subdivision and be able to transfer the old house over to the new (except that I actually liked having my house in the remains of Shallam and would prefer to build a new one in the new)

Tahquil

Targossas in the new city in which the Garden is experimenting with new things, finding what works and what doesn't. I think this is a clear way of saying, this didn't work for a lot of people. But at the same time those people will need to be patient, because it's not something that can be resolved very quickly and adequately to everyone satisfaction.

Halos

what pikachu said

Rystal

Want nothing to do with Targ in character.. don't want my house there in character.. This change was forced on my character without my want or need for it and truly limits my RP as usual as my character has said multiple times he will not set foot in Targ.

Full refunds, or leave my old home under the sea. At least there would be an RP aspect to WHY my house was there. Targ.. meh.

Sherazad

Damnit, @Antidas. If this petition works, I'm gonna make a new thread titled "Targossas needs something nice Petition," and just ask for a Sartan we can keep. >.>

Cahin

Veldrin said:

I'd have preferred the option of purchasing a plot in the subdivision and be able to transfer the old house over to the new (except that I actually liked having my house in the remains of Shallam and would prefer to build a new one in the new)

Veldrin was double wronged.  I will not stand for this injustice.

Kazu

Rystal said:

Want nothing to do with Targ in character.. don't want my house there in character.. This change was forced on my character without my want or need for it and truly limits my RP as usual as my character has said multiple times he will not set foot in Targ.

Full refunds, or leave my old home under the sea. At least there would be an RP aspect to WHY my house was there. Targ.. meh.

But then you'll have to deal with those noisy neighbors and their hippidy hop music.