Yet Another Veil Thread

Antidas

Tael said:

New idea: please just hire Santar.

and Bluwatchamacallit

Batang

If IRE decided to write me check for $500, I would take it in a heart beat and give up my Veil forever. 

It was great 2 years ago when EVERYBODY didn't have one.  Now it is kind of meh....

However, I would probably pay another $500 for a lvl 2 veil.

Batang

Hell if IRE would cut me a check for 75% of the credits I have spent,  I would quit playing Achaea for ever

Nizaris

Somewhat easy fix that allows for veils to not work in enemy cities, as per @Sarapis's remarks, but also allows for infiltration, as per @Tael's response to the proposal:

Disable veil usefulness in enemy cities when the city font is empowered.

Due to the cost associated with the font, it will not be left on permanently. Therefore: infiltration still possible.

Aerek

Now that's an interesting idea. My only concern is that a usual "raid" that I've seen is actually several smaller raids. They come in, they leave or die, they come in again, the leave or die, they come in again...until one side or the other gets bored. Not having used a font more than once, I can't remember the details of its operation. Can it be turned on/off, or is it a one-shot deal; empower and then have to refill it? If the latter, it won't really solve the problem, as the raiders can duck in, annoy you until you blow your font, then duck out and wait for the effect to end before the real raiding begins.

Eld

Aerek said:

Now that's an interesting idea. My only concern is that a usual "raid" that I've seen is actually several smaller raids. They come in, they leave or die, they come in again, the leave or die, they come in again...until one side or the other gets bored. Not having used a font more than once, I can't remember the details of its operation. Can it be turned on/off, or is it a one-shot deal; empower and then have to refill it? If the latter, it won't really solve the problem, as the raiders can duck in, annoy you until you blow your font, then duck out and wait for the effect to end before the real raiding begins.

Empowering a font uses half its power, and it stays empowered for about an hour.

Trevize

Nizaris said:

Somewhat easy fix that allows for veils to not work in enemy cities, as per @Sarapis's remarks, but also allows for infiltration, as per @Tael's response to the proposal:

Disable veil usefulness in enemy cities when the city font is empowered.

Due to the cost associated with the font, it will not be left on permanently. Therefore: infiltration still possible.

I like that.

Nizaris

Eld said:

Aerek said:

Now that's an interesting idea. My only concern is that a usual "raid" that I've seen is actually several smaller raids. They come in, they leave or die, they come in again, the leave or die, they come in again...until one side or the other gets bored. Not having used a font more than once, I can't remember the details of its operation. Can it be turned on/off, or is it a one-shot deal; empower and then have to refill it? If the latter, it won't really solve the problem, as the raiders can duck in, annoy you until you blow your font, then duck out and wait for the effect to end before the real raiding begins.

Empowering a font uses half its power, and it stays empowered for about an hour.

Hrm. Problem with that then is that it makes it harder to re-infiltrate for an hour after the first one.

In any event, I think that the operation ought to work like  a font. There should be some cost associated with using it for the city in question, to prevent using it as a preventative measure. Not sure what I feel about my idea after @Eld pointed out that it disables after about an hour. I was hoping that it was similar to disabling after people left, the same way that we get a log note/area emote when every last raider pulls out.

EDIT: Possible change to font functionality to allow for something like this: using font takes 50% fill and lasts for one hour, OR until every last raider pulls out, whichever comes first. At that point, font usage is prorated (eg. 30 minutes takes 25% fill, 15 minutes takes 12.5%, etc).

Benefits:

* Saves on the chore of bashing, limiting RP.

* Allows elegant solution to above-stated veil problem.

* Re-uses code! Code already exists to determine when raiders have left the area.

Draw backs:

* For all we know, the "all or nothing" approach to font usage is part of the calculated risk to using it. Proration may have been considered before, but thrown out by the admin as not conducive to the game theory behind font usage.

* Having to run to and from the font during subsequent attacks of a single larger raid will likely be annoying.

Eld

Nizaris said:

Eld said:

Aerek said:

Now that's an interesting idea. My only concern is that a usual "raid" that I've seen is actually several smaller raids. They come in, they leave or die, they come in again, the leave or die, they come in again...until one side or the other gets bored. Not having used a font more than once, I can't remember the details of its operation. Can it be turned on/off, or is it a one-shot deal; empower and then have to refill it? If the latter, it won't really solve the problem, as the raiders can duck in, annoy you until you blow your font, then duck out and wait for the effect to end before the real raiding begins.

Empowering a font uses half its power, and it stays empowered for about an hour.

Hrm. Problem with that then is that it makes it harder to re-infiltrate for an hour after the first one.

In any event, I think that the operation ought to work like  a font. There should be some cost associated with using it for the city in question, to prevent using it as a preventative measure. Not sure what I feel about my idea after @Eld pointed out that it disables after about an hour. I was hoping that it was similar to disabling after people left, the same way that we get a log note/area emote when every last raider pulls out.

Might be worth double checking that I'm right about that. My comment was based partly on HELP CITYDESTRUCTION and partly on my recollection of how it's worked when I've used it in the past, but it's been a while since I defended against a sanctioned raid. You do get an area emote and a log note when it's empowered, and an area emote when it wears off; not sure whether there's a log note for it turning off, though.

Aerek

Nizaris said:

Eld said:

Empowering a font uses half its power, and it stays empowered for about an hour.

Hrm. Problem with that then is that it makes it harder to re-infiltrate for an hour after the first one.

Actually, I don't consider that a "problem". If that's the case, then I think the Font disabling Veils is perfect.

I prefer raids that are one large engagement, rather than the series of in-and-out, "I'm not touching you" routines that drag on for an hour or more, and I think almost all defenders would agree. Not that this would stop that, but if you're going to do it, at least we don't have to deal with your undetectable self for an hour.

If it ends when all the raiders leave, then veiled raiders can just duck out and duck back in, wasting your font empowerment, and the Admin would never "prorate" font empowerment so low that you could just keep empowering it in that situation. This would make intentionally baiting your font to run it dry before the "real" raid begins a "valid tactic".

No, I like the Font negating enemy veils for an hour, along with its other effects. This would preserve the Veil's use for infiltration, since we can't always have a Font active, but once we know you're here, you're not immune and untouchable. And the small number of eidolons for filling a font does mean that we couldn't keep the Font perpetually active. If it needs another balancing factor, it could negate ALL veils in the city, not just enemies'.

This gets my stamp of approval.

Dortheron

Why don't veils just get changed to something similar like the Life vision mask? Instead of it being a passive ability by wearing it, why not have a command (something like VEIL ME) that turns on a temporary def that veils you from other tracking abilities? It would have a timer, and depending on how it is set up, a cool-down. Maybe some drains, or possible make it strippable. This would give raiders/infiltrators that have it the ability hide, without making so that people can't ever find you. Make it be less effective in the long term so that using it to good effect is about tactics and risk instead of how rich you are.

As to eagle wings: it much less of a problem than veils, simply because you can either follow someone else or hand it of and a different person use it. While you can still find times were no one around owns one, this is becoming less and less of an issue.

Nizaris

Aerek said:

Actually, I don't consider that a "problem". If that's the case, then I think the Font disabling Veils is perfect.

I prefer raids that are one large engagement, rather than the series of in-and-out, "I'm not touching you" routines that drag on for an hour or more, and I think almost all defenders would agree. Not that this would stop that, but if you're going to do it, at least we don't have to deal with your undetectable self for an hour.

If it ends when all the raiders leave, then veiled raiders can just duck out and duck back in, wasting your font empowerment, and the Admin would never "prorate" font empowerment so low that you could just keep empowering it in that situation. This would make intentionally baiting your font to run it dry before the "real" raid begins a "valid tactic".

No, I like the Font negating enemy veils for an hour, along with its other effects. This would preserve the Veil's use for infiltration, since we can't always have a Font active, but once we know you're here, you're not immune and untouchable. And the small number of eidolons for filling a font does mean that we couldn't keep the Font perpetually active. If it needs another balancing factor, it could negate ALL veils in the city, not just enemies'.

This gets my stamp of approval.

------------

I suppose that I am fine with my original suggestion, so long as it doesn't cause too much heartache for current veil owners and prospective buyers. 

I am firmly of the opinion that what is best for Achaea as a game is also what is best for Achaea as a business; when someone makes a sizable investment to purchase a veil, that money means more coder-hours, and more uptime, and more features. While I doubt that I will ever purchase a veil short of winning the OOC lottery (which I never buy tickets for, ha!), I want people to buy veils and other expensive artefacts because it keeps the game running.

EDIT: What you see is sooo not what you get ... damn you quotes!

Kenway

Couldn't we just have it so once aggressive action is taken on another adventurer the Veil no longer hides your location within the area?

Still wouldn't appear to anyone outside the area but say someone was, oh, I dunno, in the vineyards in Cyrene and wanted to remain hidden while he set up vibes *COUGH COUGH* they could do so, but the second someone walked into said vibes, they would be visible through farsight/falcon observe/angel thing/etc so long as the ability was used while within the same area.

Also make deathsights drop veil? Seeing as how we can see who and how, where doesn't seem all that far fetched. This would be kinda like a ping on sonar, if you farsee/whatever withing x time of them killing you can see their area if you're elsewhere or their room if you're in the area.

Seftin

Use to hate veils. Now have a veil. Veils are fine. #veilenvy.

I think making veils stop working if you enter enemy territory, but make it so that farsee etc doesn't work, instead its the npcs and denizens feeding you information when you use something like city locate

Reports file in that Seftin has been sighted at the Blacksmiths.

Batang

I think you people need to get off the forums and get to bashing so you can buy a veil and leave mine alone.

 

What this comes down to is those that cant afford it, bitch cause they don't have one. 

 

Some of us spent hard earned money buying these.  Achaea is a pay for perks game.  If you cannot pay for the perks, don't bitch about the people that can.   Quit discriminating against those that have disposable income.  I swear to god this give me generation....

 

 There is nothing OP about veils.  I don't even mind Profit's veil. 

Iocun

Batang said:

Quit discriminating against those that have disposable income.

Ah, yes, always the people with disposable income getting the short end of the stick in life. The world always so unfairly favours the poor.

Batang

Iocun said:

Batang said:

Quit discriminating against those that have disposable income.

Ah, yes, always the people with disposable income getting the short end of the stick in life. The world always so unfairly favours the poor.

So they should be punished for having more than someone else?  Very Marxist of you.

Iocun

That's right. Nerfing veils means that people with money get less than people without.

Also, Marx was cool!

Batang

Iocun said:

That's right. Nerfing veils means that people with money get less than people without.

Also, Marx was cool!

I'm fairly sure I am being trolled now -.-

Nerfing veils means that people that paid up are punished because of people that can not or will not.

Iocun

You seem to have a weird definition of the term "punishment".

Antonius

Not being able to find somebody you're fighting is annoying, but only really becomes a problem when coupled with the absurd ranged capability of certain classes. Should it be easier for non-veiled people to find veiled people they've been engaged in combat with? Probably, and I'd have no issue with that. However, taking veils out of the equation entirely, I think a more pressing issue is the ability for certain classes (especially when artied) to stand on the opposite side of the area and still deal huge amounts of damage.

Ideally, from my perspective, attacking another player would remove the benefit of my veil against them alone for a certain period of time (say, 2 minutes). That would eliminate the problem of people I'm actually fighting from being able to locate me if I move away, but would still make it more difficult for other people to join in (giving veil owners a slight advantage when engaging groups, if they can separate them).

My initial suggestion of Veils being deactivated when you're within enemy territory would be sufficient for raids inside cities, temples, House halls and the forests (for forest enemies).

Border raids? By definition the list of locations is limited to a few rooms, so I'm not sure there's really an issue here. If they're that far from your city that you don't know where they are then I don't see a problem.

Xer

Border raids include the entire island for Mhaldor most times. There have been people standing 20 rooms away and choking/Hanged Man/Healing people at the defendable and killing them, so we just sit at our gates (and think of stuff to get to them - but options are fairly limited at times). Less so these days, but it's still a problem that makes it very difficult to engage. People with veils can just fly around ranging all over Mhaldor island and it becomes very difficult to touch them without a veil user in our group. And if they're constantly moving, I need a constant search ent, instead of having him fight (unless it's a Monk with Mind sense... but veiled Monks in Mhaldor? )

Dontarion

I agree with everyone else in this thread: delete veils.

Think about it this way: Achaea just sent out an email detailing how they gave out like a million credits for level upgrades.  Even if 400 people had veils that would be 800,000 credits.  Granted, not a revenue stream for achaea and it would remove one of their best revenue streams but it would help balance things out so much more.

However, I also think deleting gems of cloaking would be good too.

Dontarion

While we're at it delete Mhaldor.