Yet Another Veil Thread

Vansittart

Tael said:

I don't really understand how making veils completely useless in cities (and possibly forests) is a smaller nerf than making people being followed detectable. That would preclude individuals infiltrating cities or walking around forests and the like more secretly, which seems like exactly what veils should be for.

Being detectable in cities seems like a comparatively gigantic nerf to veils. If that's the only option, I guess I'd rather see nothing changed.

I really disagree with this.  Infiltration is entirely possible unveiled, and should rely on timing, stealth, misdirection etc.   There are a number of skills that prevent veiled "infiltration" already if the defenders are wise to you.  It's not a gigantic nerf at all, and I think the city improvement idea is a really good one.  A nice balance to keeping almost all the functionality of the veil but addressing the obnoxious bits for city defenders.

Katia

The problem with these threads is always the same. Veil owners trying to protect their investment, the vocal haters making shit up, and everyone else who doesn't give a frap.

Seftin

Delete veils. Replace with armoured attack helicopter.

Dodder

I spent several hours coding anti-veil tracking, that'd be wasted if they got deleted.

I'm on the edge here.

Mishgul

 As a veil owner I would be perfectly fine with the deletion of veils, or at least making demon trace work again. I own a veil, but i can't demon trace other people who own a veil, and I dislike this immensely. I thought veils were meant to put me on the same footing as other people with veils?

Artefacts shouldn't buy immunity to such things, and they definitely shouldn't buy immunity to artefacts that I paid 2000cr for.

veils do detract from the game, and I completely agree with Nim's post.

Seftin

If you had an attack helicopter it would come with veil guided eliminate

Talonia

I agree with @Nim, and have little more to add about why veils should go. But I do want to suggest a few options that you could use to get rid of them instead of just issuing a refund.

1) Discontinue veils as an artefact. Create a 600cr artefact that allows one to locate veil users. Eventually, the population of veil owners will dwindle (some will also trade in because locating veiled people will have become cheaper) and the problem will solve itself within 2-3 years (obviously there will still be a few dozen combatants with veils, but that's a trifling compared to the legions that have it now. At this point it's becoming ridiculously hard to locate even my ordermates or established-player citymates to drop in for some impromptu roleplay. This is also the case with almost anyone who is high-up in an enemy faction, especially Targossas...it's just suppressing net interaction).

2) Set a decay timer on all veils of about 1-2 years. Reduce trade-in value as you get closer to the deadline. The initial 2000 credits people spent might be a lot, but they were never guaranteed a particular advantage forever, and it's certainly not an "investment" because it was never intended to provide a monetary return. After 1-2 years, veils are no longer a problem.     

Vansittart

Katia said:

The problem with these threads is always the same. Veil owners trying to protect their investment, the vocal haters making shit up, and everyone else who doesn't give a frap.

"Vocal haters"?  Is that really the best you can do?  I have owned a veil in the past.  Realistically, as Santar says, veils aren't going to be deleted.  Not just because it would be an administrative nightmare, but it's a really attractive and expensive artifact and it would be a sucky business decision.

Rendering veils less useful in a city seems a useful compromise to me, particularly if it requires a city upgrade which is quite balanced.

Aepas

I hate veils quite a bit. What I hate more is veiled classes that allow for area wide attacks like monks or occultists.

I want to see them gone. So very, very, very gone. They are completely unimaginative, boring, and ruin a sense of balance during raids or defence, as well as stealth. The whole veil model is purely pay to play, or pay to match up with your opponents who also payed that much money. It's so smart it's scary. And it works.

That rant being said, there is little to nothing we can really do about veils. The only thing to me seems that maybe summoning a spark removes it, and leaving the room puts it back on. Remember, this is a huge investment that many people have paid for, and I am sure the money has gone to a good use between coders, server costs, etc etc. I actually support the veil idea, I just absolutely hate them. So, keep them as is. They are effective, they work, they are annoying. That's their job, it's what they are here to do.

I will buy a veil if Sarapis uses the money on strippers.

Vansittart

I guess I just don't understand: "There is little to nothing we can really do".  Did Sarapis, who let's remember is the King Boss, Daddy's Home, Dictator-for-Life, not *just* post that he is open to looking at meaningful change?

Expensive artifacts get tweaked regularly.  They don't get deleted, but they do get changed.

Xli

What makes me chuckle is that the Veil is listed in HELP ARTEFACTSDEFENSIVE

Silvarien

I read the title as "Yet Another Veiled Threat." Hear that @Sarapis and @Tecton? Tael is coming after you guys with a rusty screwdriver.

Iocun

Katia said:

The problem with these threads is always the same. Veil owners trying to protect their investment, the vocal haters making shit up, and everyone else who doesn't give a frap.

Why is it "protecting their investment" though? If they deleted veils, it's pretty much guaranteed that current veil owners would get full compensation, so essentially you'd get your whole investment back on top of still having profited from owning it for possibly quite a long time.

Personally, I'd love if Thoth's Fangs (or really all artie dirks) were deleted and I got my credits for it back. That way I would have credits and still wouldn't have to feel inadequate compared to more artied serpents. AND it would facilitate upping the normal dstab speed without making artie dirks OP as a side-effect. The existence of certain arties (and high stat forged weapons) makes improving combat balance for some classes extremely difficult, so in many cases we end up with underpowered default abilities.

Lukan

A good way to see the power of a Veil from an outsider's point of view, is Lusternia. All of their powerful abilities are limited by a resource called 'power', and only one class(an infiltration class, at that) has an ability called 'veil', which makes them unlocateable for 5 minutes. Five minutes, for five power(which means you are limited in what you can use until that power is recovered). Of course, it won't change anyone's opinions on the matter, just thought I'd share.

Silvarien

Mishgul said:

 As a veil owner I would be perfectly fine with the deletion of veils, or at least making demon trace work again. I own a veil, but i can't demon trace other people who own a veil, and I dislike this immensely. I thought veils were meant to put me on the same footing as other people with veils?

Artefacts shouldn't buy immunity to such things, and they definitely shouldn't buy immunity to artefacts that I paid 2000cr for.

veils do detract from the game, and I completely agree with Nim's post.

I am not sure if we're talking about the same thing here, but one of the things I always told everybody who was making a long-term character and needed artie advice was to immediately buy a Bowl of Scrying. It allows any class to detect, and unless you can stand bashing to Dragon (which has Dragonsense) you'd need the Bowl for sure -- especially as a Veil user. If you don't immediately need it, you might someday classchange to something that does. And, the Bowl lets you use your Veil/Hood to its maximum potential. I reasoned if you're willing to part with 2000 cr, you shouldn't suffer too much regret at spending 6 crowns more.

Unfortunately, the Bowl was removed, but I think it would be a lot more fruitful to request that some variety of bowl possessing the same effect be brought back than to request that Veils be deleted. Stationery kits get replaced in this manner, and they seem a permanent fixture in the SoW in some form or another. So, if the Bowl of Scrying was to be a permanent fixture, I think that might solve some of the complaints you guys have. Literally anybody can detect with that item, it doesn't matter what class you are.

(corrected by Antonius: the Bowl was NOT removed, you can still buy it. Look to Scrying Bowl in HELP SHOP OF WONDERS, I tried to look at Bowl of Scrying at

I personally doubt they'll ever remove Veils though.

Antonius

@Silvarien: Not sure what you're on about, the Scrying bowl is still available.

Silvarien

Antonius said:

@Silvarien: Not sure what you're on about, the Scrying bowl is still available.

You're right. Checking the list I checked at B rather than at S. Man I am absent-minded. I thought they finally took it out.

But yeah, Scrying Bowl + Veil = win.

Antonius

Agreed. I don't own one, mainly because I do have access to Dragonsense and spend the majority of my time in Dragonform, but I always miss it when I switch to lesser. It's on the list just not immediately at the top (though getting close these days).

Penwize

@Nim:
Aside from the veil bit, I'm not sure why you say wings detract from the game.  I can maybe see the argument that they provide an escape that only others who have wings can access, but honestly wings are fairly inexpensive and are a reasonable goal for people to obtain even with solely IC gains.  They're so common I'd hardly say they detract from things.  Still, that said, I think it would be an absolutely wonderful change if the heron feathers were sold by some NPC somewhere for like 5k each, so that people had a less expensive means of accessing the clouds before they can afford the jump to buying wings.

As for the artie dirks, while I agree they are a huge jump in effectiveness, I'd honestly rather see them nerfed slightly and the base abilities brought up to them.  Serpent dstab should have its baseline increased and the dirk's change lessened, and forged dirks should have their speed stats increased such that a forged dirk is roughly equivalent to a soulpiercer in terms of artie versus forged item viability.  I wouldn't want to see artie dirks done away with, they could use some stat balancing but I think things should be brought up to its level, not have it dropped down.

For veils, I think I'd rather see things work with their functionality, rather than removing or nerfing them directly.  My flare idea is an example of that, but more can be done to lessen the impact veils have on detection while still preserving their value.  Perhaps a twist on the idea for single-person use, a consumable item you can purchase, that when used allows you to pierce through a person's veil defense for a minute (allowing that person's detection abilities to function), but when you use it it alerts the target that their veil/hood has been compromised by the person.  Something like that, that preserves much of the usefulness of veils while trying to close the gap between those who have them and those who don't.

Eld

Silvarien said:

Mishgul said:

 As a veil owner I would be perfectly fine with the deletion of veils, or at least making demon trace work again. I own a veil, but i can't demon trace other people who own a veil, and I dislike this immensely. I thought veils were meant to put me on the same footing as other people with veils?

Artefacts shouldn't buy immunity to such things, and they definitely shouldn't buy immunity to artefacts that I paid 2000cr for.

veils do detract from the game, and I completely agree with Nim's post.

I am not sure if we're talking about the same thing here, but one of the things I always told everybody who was making a long-term character and needed artie advice was to immediately buy a Bowl of Scrying. It allows any class to detect, and unless you can stand bashing to Dragon (which has Dragonsense) you'd need the Bowl for sure -- especially as a Veil user. If you don't immediately need it, you might someday classchange to something that does. And, the Bowl lets you use your Veil/Hood to its maximum potential. I reasoned if you're willing to part with 2000 cr, you shouldn't suffer too much regret at spending 6 crowns more.

Unfortunately, the Bowl was removed, but I think it would be a lot more fruitful to request that some variety of bowl possessing the same effect be brought back than to request that Veils be deleted. Stationery kits get replaced in this manner, and they seem a permanent fixture in the SoW in some form or another. So, if the Bowl of Scrying was to be a permanent fixture, I think that might solve some of the complaints you guys have. Literally anybody can detect with that item, it doesn't matter what class you are.

(corrected by Antonius: the Bowl was NOT removed, you can still buy it. Look to Scrying Bowl in HELP SHOP OF WONDERS, I tried to look at Bowl of Scrying at

I personally doubt they'll ever remove Veils though.

Scrying bowl doesn't mitigate anything, unless you're asking for its functionality to be enhanced to partially counter veils. As it is, a scrying bowl in itself does no more to help with the team of veiled raiders problem than does Farsight.

Silvarien

Eld said:

Silvarien said:

Mishgul said:

 As a veil owner I would be perfectly fine with the deletion of veils, or at least making demon trace work again. I own a veil, but i can't demon trace other people who own a veil, and I dislike this immensely. I thought veils were meant to put me on the same footing as other people with veils?

Artefacts shouldn't buy immunity to such things, and they definitely shouldn't buy immunity to artefacts that I paid 2000cr for.

veils do detract from the game, and I completely agree with Nim's post.

I am not sure if we're talking about the same thing here, but one of the things I always told everybody who was making a long-term character and needed artie advice was to immediately buy a Bowl of Scrying. It allows any class to detect, and unless you can stand bashing to Dragon (which has Dragonsense) you'd need the Bowl for sure -- especially as a Veil user. If you don't immediately need it, you might someday classchange to something that does. And, the Bowl lets you use your Veil/Hood to its maximum potential. I reasoned if you're willing to part with 2000 cr, you shouldn't suffer too much regret at spending 6 crowns more.

Unfortunately, the Bowl was removed, but I think it would be a lot more fruitful to request that some variety of bowl possessing the same effect be brought back than to request that Veils be deleted. Stationery kits get replaced in this manner, and they seem a permanent fixture in the SoW in some form or another. So, if the Bowl of Scrying was to be a permanent fixture, I think that might solve some of the complaints you guys have. Literally anybody can detect with that item, it doesn't matter what class you are.

(corrected by Antonius: the Bowl was NOT removed, you can still buy it. Look to Scrying Bowl in HELP SHOP OF WONDERS, I tried to look at Bowl of Scrying at

I personally doubt they'll ever remove Veils though.

Scrying bowl doesn't mitigate anything, unless you're asking for its functionality to be enhanced to partially counter veils. As it is, a scrying bowl in itself does no more to help with the team of veiled raiders problem than does Farsight.

I was talking Bowl + veil, not bowl alone. I thought I saw someone say that veil alone does little, that's why I put my post down.

Sena

Silvarien said:

I was talking Bowl + veil, not bowl alone. I thought I saw someone say that veil alone does little, that's why I put my post down.

The point is that certain abilities are always stopped by the target having a veil, even if the user also has a veil.

Having a veil doesn't let you angel/demon trace other veiled people, for example.

Trevize

Nim said:

• Artefact wings. I'd be cool with them if they just functioned as a convenient travel power, but they give people a place to escape/hide from people without wings.

Make people start slowly sinking through the clouds. If you stay up there long enough... you fall through.

Rispok

Sena said:

Silvarien said:

I was talking Bowl + veil, not bowl alone. I thought I saw someone say that veil alone does little, that's why I put my post down.

The point is that certain abilities are always stopped by the target having a veil, even if the user also has a veil.

Having a veil doesn't let you angel/demon trace other veiled people, for example.

As far as I can tell, this isn't a problem with veils, it's a problem with trace (or whatever other skills) that should be fixed faster than regular classleads.

Sena

Rispok said:

Sena said:

The point is that certain abilities are always stopped by the target having a veil, even if the user also has a veil.

Having a veil doesn't let you angel/demon trace other veiled people, for example.

As far as I can tell, this isn't a problem with veils, it's a problem with trace (or whatever other skills) that should be fixed faster than regular classleads.

Changing it has been suggested before, and denied. It's explicitly listed in the help file as how it's intended to work.

Rispok

Should still be changed.

Halos

No comment.

Kyrra

Maybe angels and demons need to wear the veils for it to work!

Shirszae

You know, I actually agree with whoever it was that suggested dividing veils into two, one for hiding, and one for seeking. Obviously, each would have to be at half the price of current veils, and all current owners would get the set of two, while making it possible for everyone else to actually have a chance of getting the type of veil they are most interested in.

Aerek

That would also proliferate the "can't find me" halves, and while I'm the last one to wage a class war on folks fortunate enough to be able to throw down 1000 credits for something like that, $300 is still not a small amount for something that would become increasingly necessary to participate in combat against the "in crowd".