State of Magi

Kuruvar

So I've been back in Achaea for a little while now, somewhat unsure what to do with my character. One of the things I've been considering is becoming a magi, and although I know I'm straying a little close to flamebait here, I'd really like to hear a little bit about the state of the magi class in Achaea at the moment. The Matsuhama Arena category here is not entirely correct as I'm also interested in the state of Enchanting and how it interacts with the current economy, but it seemed at least more appropriate than just sticking it in NoT.

So these are simplifications and I'd be happy to hear more, but my primary questions boil down to: 

• How do magi fare in 1v1 combat these days? I've always simultaneously loved and hated Crystalism, and the sheer setup time and so on does bother me, but nevertheless in my day magi were at least capable combatants. I have heard that Svo just perfected curing in Retardation, though, so perhaps that's not so true anymore.
  
  
• Same question but for group combat - obviously Cataclysm is likely still strong, though do correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I'm also interested in hearing about them more generally since raids seem to be a pretty regular occurrence these days.
  
  
• Where's their utility at? I may well have been spoiled by being a monk, but if the class just sucks at bashing or can't get around very well these days or has no non-combat abilities that are worthwhile, I'd like to hear it.
  
  
• How is Enchantment as a trade skill at the moment? Can you actually make genuine money as a magi? Is a Medallion of Enchantment realistically required?
  
  
• Whatever question I didn't ask but should have.

Oh also if there are big classlead changes scheduled for them or something that I haven't noticed, that'd be nice to know!

Mishgul

magi probably oen of the few classes that can do well against any class in a 1 v 1, and if you artie out you can just mash one button

Jonathin

Retardation is the great equalizer. Without it, it's pretty tough. Enchantment is decent enough, there are some paying customers, but you're not going to artie yourself out quickly at all.

Ognog

The market for bulk enchantment for shops is extremely tight, and the going rate is break even at best. Better opportunities are one off enchantments on demand, like weapon and armour augments and resistance rings. Sometimes tips for such services are very generous.

Also, a medallion is needed for the bulk sigils and meteors market, but of little value for other things.

Magi are great for bashing - staffcast is effective, and stormhammer is excellent for multiple targets. Reflections and adduction vibe can help with difficult situations.

I don't really share Mishgul's view on 1v1 combat though. I find I struggle against the two afflictions per action type classes, and vibes take time to establish and are difficult to bring to bear on a moving target.

Aerek

I'd say Magi is probably one of the easiest classes to learn how to be effective against most anyone in 1v1. I don't mean that in a bad way, either, it's just that the class's tactics are fairly easy to learn, and retardation makes a lot of things that would be impossible in this day and age possible again. Yeah, Svo can cure well enough in retardation, but if they're just curing, that means your opponent is doing nothing to you, which lets you do whatever you want to them. Once you know a few of the tricks and tactics that exist for Magi in Retardation, you'll probably find a surprising measure of success. A lot of folks just don't know what to do in it.

In group combat, Magi are highly sought after for Cataclysm, (Staffcasts and Transfix become area-wide, outdoor attacks, but you need 3 Magi to spin the vibration) and they can really hurt in a melee, but I have a suspicion that they're kind of one-trick ponies outside of that. This could just  be because most Magi I see in Cyrene are largely non-combatants, so a more experienced combatant Magi can correct me.

Class hunts pretty well, has travel skills, and a smattering of other utilities.

I don't think Enchantment is much of a money-maker, at the moment, but I don't understand why. Perhaps there's just an abundance of selfless Magi in the world, because no one really seems to charge anything for it. As Ognog mentioned, I try to tip reasonably, because most Magi seem willing to do it for peanuts. If you're trying to make money, though, I would say a Medallion would be necessary.

Crystalism means needing a House with a master crystal, (Unless you're going to buy them from Tasur'ke) and I don't know of any other than the Kindred, Warlocks, Congregation, and Merchants that have them. It's my opinion that Magi have some of the fewest options of any class when choosing your desired House atmosphere. (Which is ironic, since they were one of the few classes with a guild in every city) The Congregation and Merchants have pretty specific lines of RP that just happen to be the "Magi Houses" in their respective cities. The Kindred have great Magi flavor, but I find them cliquish and their requirements unreasonable in practice. The Warlocks are pretty open, I think, but I've also never heard anything from/about them that really impressed me.

Kuruvar

Aerek said:

It's my opinion that Magi have some of the fewest options of any class when choosing your desired House atmosphere. (Which is ironic, since they were one of the few classes with a guild in every city) The Congregation and Merchants have pretty specific lines of RP that just happen to be the "Magi Houses" in their respective cities. The Kindred have great Magi flavor, but I find them cliquish and their requirements unreasonable in practice. The Warlocks are pretty open, I think, but I've also never heard anything from/about them that really impressed me.

I'm actually finding this a problem with monk at the moment. I've been Houseless monk for RL years, but like I said I'd quite like to actually give Kuruvar a bit of purpose again, and I think a big part of that is finding a good House. Unfortunately, though, I've had a lot of difficulty locating one that I'd actually want to be a part of. So if that's likely to be an issue with magi as well that's definitely something worth considering.

Edit: Oh, I forgot to ask one thing that occurred to me - is there actually even a reason to learn Holocaust? I mean, trying to use it 1v1 would be annoying, trying to use it in a group would do as much harm as good... am I missing something?

Sidonia

Faking a retreat into a holocaust-prep'd room = most fun thing in the game when it works.

Trevize

Kuruvar said:

Edit: Oh, I forgot to ask one thing that occurred to me - is there actually even a reason to learn Holocaust? I mean, trying to use it 1v1 would be annoying, trying to use it in a group would do as much harm as good... am I missing something?

Bback when races had real stats, my fire resistance and high health as a Xorani meant I could pop them like nothing else and ignore the effects.

Terra

This might be the only time I ever got a kill with holo:

http://pastebin.com/R5Pkn3PL

Was totally worth it.

If you plan to have artefacts, holocausts can be pretty insane, as well. Cain basically oneshotted me from full health with holo/stormhammer. They're also used in some group situations to get a lot of kills.

Huyen

You should ask Earionduil how many Shallamese he's killed with retardation+holospam.

Ada

Magi is awesome once you learn to jab with an envenomed weapon in retardation. Oh, having a bow is nice too!

Blujixapug

I think mage PK benefited from the recent Trait changes that made people less tanky across the board. Mages are like 70% straight damage (28% Retardation, 2% wiles) so anything that means most people have less constitution, sip healing, moss healing, and elemental resistance benefits them considerably. Magi did suffer from the implementation of traits, prior to which everyone was a raja with fire weakness and a sip penalty, but what can you do. Magi scaling with artifacts is still exponentially strong.

Between Fog, Flood, walls, and reflections, you always have something to do in a raid. Cata is still one of THE raid skills, if you can get it up.

Mage utility = strong resistances, reflections, portals, crystalhome. You're in a House with an MC right?

Enchantment's problem is idiotic nice-guy tendency of people in general to not value their work, and enchant for free in exchange for comms. Its benefit as a tradeskill is marginal at best. If you own a shop, or can supply one, slightly better. If you're Trans Enchanting and around on a reliable basis it could actually be worth approaching some shop owners and asking if they're interested in you supplying Enchantments - most will say "no" or "who are you" but who knows.

Velociraptors controlled by hyperintelligent brain-leech cephalopods.

Zeon

Blujixapug said:

Velociraptors controlled by hyperintelligent brain-leech cephalopods.

Xith

First glance, I'm going to say that "quality" Magi are in demand as far as combat goes. Depsite being theoretically the best 1 vs X class (though it needs buffs to that these days), Magi still need other Magi to do maximum well, the rule being 3. That being said, if someone were able to get a synergistic Magi kill squad going, it could be jaw-dropping.

Quality or not, cataclysm spinners will always be needed, and any Magi with at least Freeze in Elem is of use. Just have to stand in a room and point. Also not die. Cataclysm IS strong, but you want to be decent if you're considering holding one. Lots to tank when the other team decides you need to die. So again having 2 other Magi to bear down on enemies with staffcasts might help keep you alive.

Enchantment.

I'm gonna say yes. A) Shop prices are higher as they should be. So you can always cut a little off those prices, but usually when people neeeeeed an enchanter it's for their shoes or some special order and they'll be so happy to have their needs met they'll overpay/tip you.

For the LOVE OF MUD please don't undercharge. If you enchant for free to anybody who isn't immediate family, I will hunt you down. Can't even stand when citymate Magi don't take my money.

1v1 - It is easy. You have the advantage of being practiced in retardation and therefore knowing when to begin your next ability so that it goes through right after eq comes back, almost as though there was no sluggish.

That being said, some people also know how to do that and will know exactly how to burn you. Shaman for example just has to smack you with an amnesia and you're gonna have a bad time. But typically pre-vibes can help you for a few seconds to get the upper hand. Attempt to prep them in some way before actually putting retard down.

General rules: not against classes with entities unless you're quick on the monkshood, not against other passive effects, not against a well-crafted puppet, etc.

Dunn

Huyen said:

You should ask Earionduil how many Shallamese he's killed with retardation+holospam.

I would bet that my count for that quadruples his easily. Magi is so fun. FK there's that class change itch.

Berenene

I sometimes wonder if the problem with enchantment money making has come about because of the dissolution of the enchantment treaty that used to be held by the 4 magi guilds.  While I do know that it was enforced in our guild at the time, I also wonder if it was enforced by the other 3.

Drauka

Fsck this thread. I won't jump classes, I won't jump classes, I won't jump classes.

Veldrin

Berenene said:

I sometimes wonder if the problem with enchantment money making has come about because of the dissolution of the enchantment treaty that used to be held by the 4 magi guilds.  While I do know that it was enforced in our guild at the time, I also wonder if it was enforced by the other 3.

It held until the Crown Merchants broke it with the introduction of Ourobori in Tasur'ke (because now there was public ourobori it was 'impossible to force people to set a specific price for it') which made the Arcane Kindred stop supporting it which in turn made Warlocks stop supporting it. The Crystalline still used it as recommended prices but didn't enforce the pricing nor did it stop the creation of 'illegal' enchantments, it just sorta turned taboo. 

The purpose of the treaty was to keep the price artificially up so we wouldn't just be throwing our enchantments at people, plus ensuring enchantments that would harm Magi wouldn't get out to the public.

And that's that for that history lesson.

Aliath

Veldrin said:

Berenene said:

I sometimes wonder if the problem with enchantment money making has come about because of the dissolution of the enchantment treaty that used to be held by the 4 magi guilds.  While I do know that it was enforced in our guild at the time, I also wonder if it was enforced by the other 3.

It held until the Crown Merchants broke it with the introduction of Ourobori in Tasur'ke (because now there was public ourobori it was 'impossible to force people to set a specific price for it') which made the Arcane Kindred stop supporting it which in turn made Warlocks stop supporting it. The Crystalline still used it as recommended prices but didn't enforce the pricing nor did it stop the creation of 'illegal' enchantments, it just sorta turned taboo. 

The purpose of the treaty was to keep the price artificially up so we wouldn't just be throwing our enchantments at people, plus ensuring enchantments that would harm Magi wouldn't get out to the public.

And that's that for that history lesson.

Actually there was several warlocks and kindred that were selling inside their own city when the CM 'broke' it, and the breaking basically involved one person that jumped the gun before talking with the rest of the House, and just happened to be married to the HL.

Not sure why people say Cataclysm is that strong, can be countered by shielding, which magi can do nothing about, or merely by being indoors, so if anyone dies to magi one on one due to cataclysm, they are doing something horribly wrong.  In group situation though, it can force a group indoors if you have more magi/(sylvans) than them, albeit cataclysm is a lot stronger tool for cities with priests (remote cure blind).

Rangor

Mage is at a good spot atm. Good for raids. Strong 1v1 if you learn retardation. Scales well with arties.

Iocun

Also, they can do magic.

Triak

Berenene

Triak said:

That is really creepy

Drauka

Love that skit! http://www.hulu.com/watch/19687