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The Big Ship Thread

JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,830Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
So, following the major ship changes last year, ships sort of just stopped as far as an evolving dynamic. I think this is partially due to the departure of the Celani that was over ships. Regardless, the admins have a ton of shit going on, and ship aren't top of the list, so I thought a thread where we could discuss issues with ships, ways to fix them, or just general ideas for improvements.

Problem 1- Ships is almost entirely DPS, if a ship with 3-4 people on it attacks a ship with 1 person, that person is screwed barring inexperience on the part of the opposing crew.

Proposed Solution- Defensive forceboard. It would work only if the opposing ship hookshotted you. This gives the victim the chance at some last ditch effort to fight back. Open to more eloquent solutions.

Problem 2 Shiplogs don't include plunder rewards

Proposed Solution- Add plunder rewards to shiplogs

Problem 3 lots of random ship items left over from trades, plunders, etc, and no way to put it on another ship to combine it. 

Solution 3- allow ships at the same dock to transfer ship trade goods, or to hookshot each other and transfer adjacent.

Problem 4- Galleys have an exponential leaking rate, that is nearly impossible to stop if hull gets below 40%.

Solution- I'm blank, but it really is overkill.




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LoalaineShimiNazihk
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Comments

  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,627Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Some thoughts from a relatively inexperienced (but keen) seafarer:

    Problem 1: Frustrating as it is, it's not really a problem. It's the same as if you're jumped by three people when hunting, you either fight back and hope to get lucky, or you run. Admittedly, there are easy ways to prevent a target ship running, but seafaring was never intended as a solo pursuit.

    Problem 2: Agreed, and also include the amount plundered in the victim ship log

    Problem 3: I'm on the fence about this one. The issue I see here is a ship-based trade - one ship loads up with extra cargo, does all the sailing around, other ships receive the final cargo and complete the trades. Perhaps an alternative would be some kind of warehousing system, where a captain can order cargo to be stored on a dock somewhere (Thraasi and Tasur'ke could have docks). The warehousing system could come with a monthly / annual storage fee, with a maximum capacity of 20 or so, so it's for storing odd bits, not stocking up on loads of furs from Suleil, etc.

    Problem 4: Agreed, once a galley's leaking, you're SOL unless you have hordes of people on board to maintain hull.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • AccipiterAccipiter Posts: 263Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Same boat as Klendathum I sail a fair bit but don't do much combat.

    Problem 1: I think this is more how hard it is to get a crew if the intent is to not-combat. Being on a ship is damn boring if you aren't the captain and if people are going to idle why not do it in a city? 3v1 should always be heavily in favour of the 3 but the chances of having more crew than the other is pretty high and I think that should be addressed. Let more people do stuff on the boat at it might be easier to get a crew. Granted seamonsters has helped this a fair bit

    Problem 2: How is this even a thing? Of course there should be a log of it

    Problem 3: Trading between ships has problems, I think the least problematic solution would be to be able to sell all commodities back to Tasur'ke and Thraasi for cost. So Wool gets you 1k and Spices gets you 12k.

    Problem 4: No idea, but it sounds like an issue if it works as described.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,627Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Accipiter said:
    Same boat as Klendathum I sail a fair bit but don't do much combat.
    Who gave you boarding perms? :dizzy:

    Accipiter said:
    Problem 3: Trading between ships has problems, I think the least problematic solution would be to be able to sell all commodities back to Tasur'ke and Thraasi for cost. So Wool gets you 1k and Spices gets you 12k.
    Not at cost, should be a loss, otherwise people would sail about to get the spices to make 12k from 1. Maybe pay 100 per cargo, regardless of what it is.



    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    Shirszae
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellaterePosts: 2,604Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    100 per cargo sounds outrageously cheap. :x did you mean 1000


  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,627Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 16
    Skye said:
    100 per cargo sounds outrageously cheap. :x did you mean 1000
    Nope. It's 100 more than you currently get for dumping the cargo.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • AccipiterAccipiter Posts: 263Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I made the assumption that to get 1 spices you would need to start with 12 cotton, which would cost you 12k, forgetting that you can't trade 1:1 and my calculator rounds up. I just meant that the stuff you buy at 1k you could sell back for that and each level up would give you the higher price, making you break even for the left over cargo, maybe sell it for 500 then the multiplier for safety.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,627Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Accipiter said:
    I made the assumption that to get 1 spices you would need to start with 12 cotton, which would cost you 12k, forgetting that you can't trade 1:1 and my calculator rounds up. I just meant that the stuff you buy at 1k you could sell back for that and each level up would give you the higher price, making you break even for the left over cargo, maybe sell it for 500 then the multiplier for safety.
    I know what you meant. Why should you break even though? If you've plundered them, you're getting reward for someone else's spending, if you miscalculated, you're getting something back instead of the current nothing. 

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • AccipiterAccipiter Posts: 263Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Why should you do anything? The current system is annoying because you are forced to keep some higher end goods because the numbers don't work out or because you got a weird amount in plunder. Sure you can just dump it but that feels bad. If we are making it less annoying it would be to sell it and not make something with abuse potential like homeport just had.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,215Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    More seriously:

    1) Not a problem, intended design as stated by admins in past since sailing is supposed to be a group endeavor.

    2) agree

    3) probably abuseable somehow and the current way is likely intended

    4) no opinion

  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,267Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Klendathu said:
    Problem 2: Agreed, and also include the amount plundered in the victim ship log
    The plunderer should know that info, of course.

    But, ambiguity is the consequence for being the victim plundered. Same reason city logs report who blew up the room only to the attackers, but not to the defenders.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • AnariaAnaria Posts: 180Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    1. Not a problem. Disagree with the proposed solution.

    2. Agree entirely with proposed solution.

    3. Admin has said no to this already in the past. I agree it should be possible to transfer cargo, but you are yelling into the wind on this one.

    4. Like Kiet I also have no opinion. I've been in a few battles with my war galley and haven't noticed excessive leakage being a thing, relative to the seastrider. This is actually the first time I've heard it brought up.

    Siduri
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,267Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Are the leak numbers from being hit with Weapons V aura bonus, maybe?
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,830Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 16
    Krypton said:
    Are the leak numbers from being hit with Weapons V aura bonus, maybe?
    No. I've tested while hopping back and forth using no aura and not dipped darts. I stopped firing on a galley at around 50%, and jumped on the galley to ship repair, maintained. Immediately docked, with anchor down, it got all the way down to like 18% and nearly sank with no new or additional damage. It was hitting 2% leak ticks extremely fast.


    Also guys, this is for you guys to express concerns and ideas. Please add new ideas and problems, no need to address just mine.

    As to the responses that 1. is as intended. That's the thing with proposed fixes, they may be working as intended but may not be the most elegant implementation. Just because something isn't broke doesn't mean it doesn't need to be tweaked. Also because of the flat DPS nature, if you have a fully crewed strider, and a galley with 6 people rolls up, you're getting owned, no point in fighting back. There's not a lot of interplay between the sizes by design, but it's still really dull at times. I know that there have been times where I'm on a galley with one other person and a strider of 2 rolls up and we're screwed. That doesn't make a ton of sense, either. Like I said, I don't think my solution is eloquent, but I do think the options of 1. don't hookshot the person if you're worried about a hard fight on the other end, or 2. bring a huge crew still play directly into the strategic nature of ship combat without opening up a dumb mechanic like boarding decks.



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  • KietKiet Posts: 2,215Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A strider can also easily outmaneuver a ship and gtfo, though, and a galley is really bad at chasing in anything but a straight line. The only ship type that is screwed is a windcutter cause they can't even equip real weapons, and they're also really easy to get away with.

    The entire point is that a fully crewed galley is a floating weaponized fortress. If they're not fully crewed, they're pretty vulnerable and that's the point.
  • AccipiterAccipiter Posts: 263Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I agree that number 1 is a problem. If you go group bashing, sure there is movement that you don't have much control over but that is like 20% of the activity at maximum. Same with raiding or anything. But with sailing, if you aren't steering then like 50-60% of your time is doing something unrelated to what you are supposedly there for. If what you are there for is fighting other ships then you make that sacrifice for the sweet plunder. If what is happening is trading, well why are you going to hang around? I guess what I am saying that the benefit for having more crew is PK is easier, so if you aren't intending to PK the benefits don't outweigh the detriments so you don't take the crew.

    If you made ships with bigger crews have a benefit in the movement part, which as I have said it the majority of time spent sailing, then you will find bigger crews for all of the activities, evening out the crew sizes between the different types and have it more likely to be a test of skill.

    Granted, the down side for that may be making ships to be irritating if you just want to be a passenger, maybe they tried it that way already and it failed during the times I wasn't around. But the 'group' part of ships never made much sense to me when I am mostly reading reddit while someone else is steering.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,215Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 16
    Ships are meant to be social--socialize. By design, you're at a disadvantage if you have no friends or socializing skills. Adding more advantages for more people hardly seems a solution, eitherr.
  • BannBann Posts: 381Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Hmm...I really like how onagers work in ship combat. They are essentially ways to afflict the target ships, which the crew on the other ship essentially has to 'heal'. Dipped darts are the same, with the on-fire effect. I always liked that, despite how much it frustrates me when -I- am the one on fire :'(

    I feel like 2 ships v 1 ship is always basically a get-fucked scenario, unless the one ship is a fully crewed galley. In which case I hope you have 3-4 people per strider, or else you're probably going to get burnt, and burnt hard. I am, in general, okay with the discrepancy between Striders and Galleys. The only thing that really kinda sucks is that Cutters are such easy targets. I'd probably be okay with Cutters being harder to hit or something. It'd give people a reason to run the Harpooner trait as well as the Helm maneuvers that increase accuracy.

    I have a lot of feelings about ship trades. I feel like the ones that go to Karbaz or Orilla or Suliel could probably pay a little better. Not only are those trades super risky, but they're also kinda shitty sails. Orilla and Suliel especially, unless you're in a cutter maybe. Karbaz isn't as bad, but it's still a hell of a long way around. It'd also be neat if the rewards were a little more varied as well, or didn't decay/die or anything like that. i know there are a couple that give like, birds and kittens and things like that, but those decay/die or something? That's kinda silly. Also the ship morale trades suck a LOT. The only one worthwhile is crew experience.

    You also can't hunt seamonsters in a Cutter, which kinda blows. A Strider and Galley are fairly easy to level up by killing seamonsters. Throw on some helm aura, pew pew, and golden. Put up some good rations and pay, and you can watch your morale and crew xp skyrocket. Not saying it's easy to hit elite 50 rank, but it's a lot easier than it is on a Cutter imo. It'd be cool if there were some seamonsters small enough for an armed Cutter to bash, that don't give any kind of gold reward or something like that. Could maybe increase Cutter armament limits to allow for 2 throwers, too.

    As far as giving cargo to other ships...I don't really see an issue with it. If anything, I feel like this might somehow make seafaring a bit more lively? For example...hire soandso to sail the trade routes and do the trading for you, then they come back in and give you the goods for some gold or credits or whatever, where you turn them in. Making it so that you can take the extra leftovers from trades or plunder and sell them would be pretty cool too. I don't think it would be too difficult to put the plundered goods in a separate cargo hold from the ones you would normally have left over. Normal goods can be sold at equal cost to their purchase depending on what level they're at. So like if it's just extra ore, you'd just sell it for 1k. Plundered goods might give half of a return. Hell maybe it'd depend on where you sell them at.

    Last, but not least....we need a goddamn Tortuga!!

  • KietKiet Posts: 2,215Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Taco hunted seamonsters just fine on her cutter
  • BannBann Posts: 381Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Also, wardiscs could use a mechanic similar to how you can dip darts. Something like, load thrower with wardisc 4 curare 2 voyria or similar. The way it is right now seems...kinda clunky.

    Shimi
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,267Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Wardiscs don't hit adventurers anymore, you're just wasting venoms...
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,474Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Something less crucial but would make me happy. Allow ships, or at least Striders/Galleys to hoist more then one flag. So like I can fly my personal flag and a PoM/Mariners Guild or Ashtan flag too. Super cosmetic but I think it would be neat.

    Artie dragons tears tank: Doesn't even have to generate tears just a nondecay tank I can fill would be hot AF.
    ShimiBannValkyn
  • BannBann Posts: 381Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Krypton - You can't actually envenom anymore, tried a bit ago. Was just a sad hope :(

  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,830Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Also I want the ability to take over harbours. With defensive land ballistas to fight back.
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    ShimiBannTysandr
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,215Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pick a flag, punks.
  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,790Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    Taco hunted seamonsters just fine on her cutter
    I was in the top 10 sea monster hunters as well until the rankings where changed.
  • ShimiShimi Posts: 106Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Daeir said:
    I have (wet) dreams sometimes about a pirate citystate accessible only via sailing that derives its gold purely through port transactions and supplying "goods" to other naval citystates.
    Jinsun said:
    Also I want the ability to take over harbours. With defensive land ballistas to fight back.
    These two things together, yes please!! Would give more impetus to combat between Pirates and Mariners/Navy and would make it awesooooome
    JinsunBann
  • AnariaAnaria Posts: 180Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 17
    Shimi said:
    Daeir said:
    I have (wet) dreams sometimes about a pirate citystate accessible only via sailing that derives its gold purely through port transactions and supplying "goods" to other naval citystates.
    Jinsun said:
    Also I want the ability to take over harbours. With defensive land ballistas to fight back.
    These two things together, yes please!! Would give more impetus to combat between Pirates and Mariners/Navy and would make it awesooooome

    The very last thing seafaring needs is more incentive for pirates to hide in harbours and cherry pick which helpless ships they ambush while taking absolutely no risk whatsoever themselves. One pirate sitting in a major port can shut down everyone's sea trading for as long as he feels like sitting there, because what few defenders there are can't retaliate. He either won't come out, or he'll just re-dock. We don't need to give those people shore batteries. 
    Siduri
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