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Auto-following target calls is bad, somehow, I guess

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  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 2,673 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Auto targeting is great! Just make sure you can easily turn it on or off. 
    image
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    If at your 'simplest' level, the only input you have is "I'm gonna do this strat." then no, you're not 'playing the game'.

    That's like saying pushing F1 every 5 seconds to make your character move rooms while bashing, is you playing the game, while your script handles everything that isn't that single button push to move. You're not; you're skirting as close as you possibly can along the automation rules, so that you don't have to play the game.

    If you can't understand that basic logic, I don't really know what to tell you sorry. There's a reason Blizzard did a colossal banwave on players who were using bots to control their characters while they raided/pvp'd. You handling 1 small part while a bot does the rest, is not you playing.

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,405 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shred auto dudes all day over here.

    AnedhelRomLelum
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    My time and effort spent doing things results in my character doing things. Just like the dude who does everything the other way spends time and effort doing things that result in his character doing things. The difference? I do the things faster and more efficiently than the dude who does them the other way.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    I think the difference between the two types of players boils down to something like "I want to make all of my decisions and forecast all outcomes beforehand, and see if it works flawlessly" and "I still want to actively make a fair number of meaningful decisions on the fly, and maybe there will be some real surprises sometimes".  And there I am talking about people who are more than capable of building an awesome system themselves.  People near the top.

    As I'd said a bit above, it seems like the two types can coexist (to a point?) at the very upper tier, but the more stuff is standardized and coded up and (and sometimes even handed out as "here, use this"), the more ordinary guys are going to tend to have a less satisfying experience if they like that "I reacted" part of gaming, and it's awfully hard to say "nah, I will just use my playskool thing I made" when everyone else is using an absolutely gorgeous, impressive, standardized system that does its job with deadly precision.  
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    See above post. Point is quite clearly lost on you.

    Flashbacks to Ernam are starting to happen, I'm pulling out before it gets too far into that.

  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    Kiskan said:
    I think the difference between the two types of players boils down to something like "I want to make all of my decisions and forecast all outcomes beforehand, and see if it works flawless" and "I still want to actively make a fair number of meaningful decisions on the fly, and maybe there will be some real surprises sometimes".  
    But you can make a script that makes meaningful decisions on the fly. Adaptation and intuition is not something that is exclusive to human beings. An easy example can be found in the server-side curing and how it handles aeon. "Oh, hey, I'm aeoned now. Better start sending commands one at a time instead of all at once!" That's a (remarkably simple) example of adapting to new variables.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • VenderVender Member Posts: 134 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Rangor said:
    Auto targeting is great! Just make sure you can easily turn it on or off. 
    ya, but see she keeps arguing that you never need to turn it off.

    outside of the forums, she mentioned that if something is not working properly, she will bring up the trigger menu during a melee in a raid. that alone is reason enough to turn it off and start manualling and if you solely rely on auto then you won't be much use but at least you will be 100% more useful than a soldier who goes completely braindead in the middle of the battlefield.
    Currently reading - The Steel Remains by Richard K. Morgan
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    Vender said:
    Rangor said:
    Auto targeting is great! Just make sure you can easily turn it on or off. 
    ya, but see she keeps arguing that you never need to turn it off.

    outside of the forums, she mentioned that if something is not working properly, she will bring up the trigger menu during a melee in a raid. that alone is reason enough to turn it off and start manualling and if you solely rely on auto then you won't be much use but at least you will be 100% more useful than a soldier who goes completely braindead in the middle of the battlefield.
    Literally none of this happened, by the way. I mentioned that I can recode my system on the fly -- not literally in the middle of a melee, but during pauses (i.e. moving out a few rooms.) Bring up the script menu, keep one eye on the screen and the other on the code, make changes where necessary (usually to just one or two functions.) It's not impossible to do.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • VenderVender Member Posts: 134 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    i'd rather the soldier behind my back be able to fight until he or she is dead and not because that soldier is unable to type t name
    Currently reading - The Steel Remains by Richard K. Morgan
    MorsulAtalkezViho
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Vender said:
    i'd rather the soldier behind my back be able to fight until he or she is dead and not because that soldier is unable to type t name

    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,300 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    I'd be a lot more interested in seeing an infallible automatic offence/defence if it weren't an Alchemist :( 

    That class is terrible :( 

    ETA: Terrible to play against. 
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 3,765 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What are you going to do when your group gets split up, you want to attack an enemy in your room, and the leader keeps calling other targets in their room? Maybe that never happens in Hashan, but it happens all the time for me.

    What are you going to do when the way your script wants to approach your offense is incapable of killing somebody? Yes, you can tweak it, but only after the fight. That's an entire fight that you're totally incapable of winning because you can't adapt on the fly.

    Ultimately, if you want to automate everything, and you still feel like you're playing the game and you enjoy it, go ahead. Don't be surprised when nobody thinks you're actually any good, even if you are killing people, though
    Vender
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    Antonius said:
    What are you going to do when your group gets split up, you want to attack an enemy in your room, and the leader keeps calling other targets in their room? Maybe that never happens in Hashan, but it happens all the time for me.

    What are you going to do when the way your script wants to approach your offense is incapable of killing somebody? Yes, you can tweak it, but only after the fight. That's an entire fight that you're totally incapable of winning because you can't adapt on the fly.

    Ultimately, if you want to automate everything, and you still feel like you're playing the game and you enjoy it, go ahead. Don't be surprised when nobody thinks you're actually any good, even if you are killing people, though
    1. Turn off auto-target following. Easy fix.
    2. Move away a few rooms, tweak code so it works, re-enter fight. If it stops working, repeat. Later on, maybe code a special offense that's specific against that person's curing.
    3. I don't care if other people don't think I'm good. They'll be the ones dying!
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,300 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reisen said:
    <stuff> They'll be the ones dying!
    Maybe, uh... get the kills first, then brag? 

    Jhui's got 15,000, you have some catching up to do to be the best. 
    Aereidhna
  • VenderVender Member Posts: 134 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    it's a lot smarter and easier to make a GUI which puts party tells in a place which is easily read than to make a system which needs quite a lot of checks and balances only to replace typing t name

    when people give you advice, perhaps it is better to just listen instead of bragging about how many people you've killed (0)
    Currently reading - The Steel Remains by Richard K. Morgan
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Anedhel said:
    Reisen said:
    <stuff> They'll be the ones dying!
    Maybe, uh... get the kills first, then brag? 

    Jhui's got 15,000, you have some catching up to do to be the best. 
    Oh, I'm not worried about being the best! I'm here to have fun.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
    Anedhel
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,300 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh. No problem, then :D 
    Reisen
  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 2,673 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    Reisen said:
    Vender said:
    Rangor said:
    Auto targeting is great! Just make sure you can easily turn it on or off. 
    ya, but see she keeps arguing that you never need to turn it off.

    outside of the forums, she mentioned that if something is not working properly, she will bring up the trigger menu during a melee in a raid. that alone is reason enough to turn it off and start manualling and if you solely rely on auto then you won't be much use but at least you will be 100% more useful than a soldier who goes completely braindead in the middle of the battlefield.
    Literally none of this happened, by the way. I mentioned that I can recode my system on the fly -- not literally in the middle of a melee, but during pauses (i.e. moving out a few rooms.) Bring up the script menu, keep one eye on the screen and the other on the code, make changes where necessary (usually to just one or two functions.) It's not impossible to do.
    Just make quick aliases for the things you would have to edit the script for.
    atar - Auto targeting on/off toggle.
    rlead (\w+) - Raid leader change.
    lead - Toggle your own target calls.

    Colour trigger to avoid illusions.
    Name database check if you are really paranoid.

    This' great when starting out with raid combat in achaea, which is a mess to a new player. Once you get more accustomed to it you can start picking your own target, usually mirroring the raid leaders.

    Most Eleusians uses triggers to follow targets, it's not mandatory, those that don't want to don't have to. Whenever I don't announce targets, someone asks me if I could start doing so. 

    For some situations auto targeting doesn't work that great, like the CTF. Didn't seem to be a problem, people found their own targets.

    image
    Vessil
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Vender said:
    it's a lot smarter and easier to make a GUI which puts party tells in a place which is easily read than to make a system which needs quite a lot of checks and balances only to replace typing t name

    when people give you advice, perhaps it is better to just listen instead of bragging about how many people you've killed (0)

    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Rangor said:

    Just make quick aliases for the things you would have to edit the script for.
    atar - Auto targeting on/off toggle.
    rlead (\w+) - Raid leader change.
    lead - Toggle your own target calls.

    Colour trigger to avoid illusions.
    Name database check if you are really paranoid.

    Yeah, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about tweaking my offense on the fly, like, say, if someone has a really weird curing order that I want to bypass/take advantage of.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • RomRom Member Posts: 464 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Most people enjoy the game the regular way because they didn't login to play as a computer. Nothing is stopping you from being fully automated, and lots of people automate a lot of combat while others automate next to none. We all know that some super-system is capable of being made, and that a 'perfect' automated combat system would perform better than humans.

    If that's what you want to do then go for it, but don't expect everyone to think it's as cool as you do. I'd imagine most people are into combat because they enjoy the thrills of human performance, it is what got most people hooked in the first place. The gotta-code mindset is pretty new to Achaea on a large scale, I know it is more the norm in other IRE games, but even simple things like automated affliction choice have only recently become widespread.

    I'm not a fan personally but most people enjoy the more narrow barrier of entry, so it's nice to see more people fighting at least.
    AnedhelBannNikholAereidhna
  • ArmaliArmali Member Posts: 512 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    I don't think Reisen gives a whit at what any of us think, and including disclaimers that 'ppl won't like you' is just masturbatory at this point.
    Reisen
  • KezKez Member Posts: 630 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    And there you have it.
    If you're going to fight AI, might as well be denizens for the xp/gold/etc. Back to button mashing! Mush! Wait... was that a different thread?
  • RomRom Member Posts: 464 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Armali said:
    I don't think Reisen gives a whit at what any of us think, and including disclaimers that 'ppl won't like you' is just masturbatory at this point.
    Right, that's fine and all but what would be the point of the thread then? You already know the answer to the OP is that of course you can fix it up with enough checks and balances that it doesn't cause you any trouble. Anything besides that is just going to be baiting arguments (see above) and opinions regarding why one might not automate despite it being faster/superior/whatever, like the "mindset" mentioned in the OP. If the response to that is not caring then everything is already settled.
    AnedhelBann
  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 2,673 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reisen said:
    Rangor said:

    Just make quick aliases for the things you would have to edit the script for.
    atar - Auto targeting on/off toggle.
    rlead (\w+) - Raid leader change.
    lead - Toggle your own target calls.

    Colour trigger to avoid illusions.
    Name database check if you are really paranoid.

    Yeah, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about tweaking my offense on the fly, like, say, if someone has a really weird curing order that I want to bypass/take advantage of.
    I have a few different "stacks" or "strategies" that I pick between depending on the curing prios of my targets. If none of those seem to fit I make a new one after the fight.
    image
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    Cooper said:
    It's not very skillful to create triggers that decide what to do for you at the push of one button.
    Oh, man, yeah, dude. Programmers have zero skill! All that time and effort they spent learning how to code in their programming language of choice is meaningless, because it takes no skill to press the button they coded to run the script they code that enters the commands they typed that does the thing they want it to do. As opposed to typing out all the exact same commands manually, which takes REAL skill and is for PROS.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,300 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Definitely doesn't give a whit :D 
    AereidhnaAziik
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