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DWC + general newb questions

VallieVallie Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
While I'm some time away before looking very much into combat, I've been trying to find answers to some questions/discussions on the forums and been having some difficulty. Any information is very much appreciated!

Context: I have 0 arties, currently racial/trait specced to con for hunting. I've only ever done affliction class combat in Lusternia (balance lock --> crucify, TK heartburst stuff). I know stuff has to change, but I'd like to start locking away info in my head, sooner rather than later!

Limb Breaks:
- Limb breaks are cured by apply restoration, right? What happens if a limb is broken through limb damage, and also afflicted with a break from poison? Does one cure have to go through first?
- What's the difference between a L1 vs. a L2 break? Are they both cured in the same time?
- If you deal damage to a broken limb, and they apply restoration to it, does limb damage persist afterwards?
- Does two broken legs automatically cause prone?
- Are there any innate affs that you cause when you break chest or head? (I've seen references to concussion and increased dragon bite damage)
- Is L2 the max break level? (like, break->mangle->amputate)

DWC:
- I've found a number of 2h, SnB, dwb logs, but never any for dwc. Is there any I could look through to see how they do things?
- Do you break multiple limbs by doing like a jab lleg/jab rleg combo? Or do you dsl rleg, and then lleg? If the latter is the case, how can you possibly get two broken limbs and chest before apply restoration finishes?
- Can you time your falcon, or ents in general? eg. if ent attacks on 10s timer, order ent kill target, wait at 9.7s, order ent passive so on your spike for damage/shenanigans you order ent kill to sync it?
- Is loki a venom that can be used on weapons? Are there any venoms that afflict silently/without an aff message?
- Does impale stop any actions (i'm assuming movement)? Can you impale someone when they try to tumble to stop the tumble?

Runie-flavoured DWC:
- Are L2 scimitars pretty much necessary? Let's say at a midbie level.
- When would I use arc?
- How much bleeding does DWC generally do with the runes? Is it enough to pressure mana?
- Does eihwaz on runeblades fire often enough to be problematic?  If it's only an occasional diagnose then I would doubt it, but if a large portion of venoms are masked..
- I've previously seen a lot of comments about sketching hugalaz/thurisaz + fire meteor arrow and such for an opening, but I'm not sure that's recent. Is this still a thing?
- Is hugalaz scaled to weapons - specifically, is it worth fishing for a double hugalaz proc with dwc?
- Is a sleep lock(ish) strategy possible? I would be guessing double pith to drain mana to keep it low vs. metawake, then chained delph. Not sure how the insomnia is stripped.

I've heard that Runewardens can have other methods to kill besides disembowel, but not much explanation besides that. While I'll probably eventually switch to str spec, I'm curious where those routes might lie. I've spoken with @Aerek in game and it was helpful for giving me a look, but it mostly boiled down to get more strength. I've heard kelp stacks, 'focus' lock through mana drain and pith, but these both seem more like paths to a dsb, and my dsb is only going to tickle right now. They also don't sound like they prevent your opponent from continuing their offense?

Thanks much!
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  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 324 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2016
    I can't answer all the stuff specific to dual cutting, but I'll take a stab at the others (and probably inevitably post after someone else has made a better one).

    Limb Breaks:
    1. A limb that is broken through damage requires restoration to be cured, yes. After the restoration finishes, it will always be left with a mending break. Since venoms deliver mending breaks, they're redundant when the limb is broken through damage.

    2. The actual break terminology differs a little, depending on the help file/person you ask. Essentially there is one level of mending break, and then two levels of restoration breaks, usually either referred to as level 1, 2, and 3, respectively, or as a mending break and then level 1 and 2. When cured, only the highest level can be cured at one time. So, if a limb is mangled (level 3 break/level 2 resto break), the first application of restoration will take it to a level 2 break, the second will bring it down to a mending break, and then mending will cure it. You can't cure the mending break before the restoration break finishes, and you can only have one thing being cured at a time. Additionally, torso/head only have the two levels of restoration break, and no mending break at all.

    3. No. While you can continue to damage a limb after the restoration is applied but before it gets cured (the restoration only goes through after the four seconds are up), unless you bring it up to the next full level, any remaining damage will be removed. Essentially, restoration will lower the break a level and remove any extra extra damage, setting the limb to the next lowest full level.

    4. No. One broken limb will make the target hobble if they try to move, and two will prevent movement, but they'll remain standing until something has made them prone (though you can't stand with any variety of broken leg).

    5. The first level of head break will deliver stupidity, curable like normal. The second will give a concussion (1s relapsing aeon), which persists until the head is brought down a level. I'm less certain about torso breaks, but essentially, each level of torso break will make the target take a small amount of additional damage from all attacks, and a level two break will add some bleed on every attack as well. Head/torso breaks also often modify the damage of other attacks, such as dragon bite, skull bash, bbt, brain, and most importantly for you, disembowel. Generally this bonus damage scales with the level of the break.

    6. The second level of restoration break is the highest.

    Ayup, just checked, and Dunn posted first. I'll try and skip what he already answered.

    DWC: 

    1. There are a few dual cutting users with logs floating around. Anedhel is paladin, but the disembowel setups are about the same, and he posts pretty regularly, so I'd check around/ask him. Dunn is too, as he mentions.

    2. Dual cutting can only target one limb at a time, so you have to break one leg, break the other, then impale. This means that you have to apply the torso break earlier, but torso breaks give no announcement to the target until they diagnose, so most low-mid tier combatants won't notice (especially if you finish torso then immediately go into it). A few changes have been suggested to this, so it may not always be the case, but it will be for the foreseeable future.

    3. Falcon attacks passively, beyond its movement and utility skills, you just put it on someone for passive damage, so you can't time it to your attacks (Occie/sent is the only class with controllable ents, I believe).

    4. I hadn't actually realized that Loki couldn't normally be used, but it generally wouldn't be a good choice, anyways. While no, there are no innately hidden venoms you can use with your weapons, you'll outspeed the opponent's curing like other aff classes, so you can easily stack normally.

    5. Impale stops almost everything (similar to ropes and web), with the exception of tumble. You can't stop someone from tumbling, but battle cry (I think that's the right skill, one of the weaponmastery ones), can be used off balance when you prone the target to delay their tumble. There's a very small window where they'll have a chance to make it out (almost every prep class has a window like this), but otherwise you'll be able to get the disembowel off. And while it won't stop their movement, it will deal a solid chunk of damage (though less then dsb) if they do tumble while impaled.

    I think Dunn got the specific runie dwc questions better then I ever could, but I'll just add that arc is also used to stop shatter, which a few classes will use as a part of break strategies (apply paralysis, arc). It can also be used to interrupt timed kills in the same way, if you're not fully locked.

    VallieShirszae
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,049 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2016

    Terminology on limb breaks is inconsistent at best. For the purposes of this post, broken means cured by mending, damaged means cured by a single restoration application, mangled means cured by two restoration applications.

    Limb breaks:

    Yes, damaged limbs are cured with restoration. You can't afflict with a damaged/mangled leg and a broken leg at the same time; if you break a leg and doubleslash with epseth, it will break the non-damaged leg (assuming it's not also broken).

    For most people, level one is what I'm calling damaged, level two is what I'm calling mangled. Basically, the level refers to the number of restoration applications taken to cure. Mending breaks are considered "level zero". Restoration takes four seconds to take effect (you lose salve balance when you apply it, but it doesn't cure until you regain balance after four seconds). Damaged takes four seconds, mangled takes eight; though in practice you'll have applied restoration prior to it becoming mangled - dual cutting Knights can't really mangle (outside of shatter), so don't need to worry about this for your offense (though it's relevant against a couple of classes/specs for your defence).

    Applying restoration without any afflictions for it to cure is a waste*, it won't lower the amount of limb damage. Limb damage decays after 3 minutes from the last time that limb was dealt damage to, and it also resets when the resulting affliction is cured.

        *You can do what's called "pre-applying" where you apply restoration, hoping that it becomes damaged within that four second window.

    No, two broken/damaged/mangled legs doesn't prone. You'll need to use delphinium or some other method to prone them.

    Damaged head causes stupidity at the point of it becoming damaged, mangled head/concussion causes relapsing amnesia. Torso has a small amount of bleeding associated with it.

    Yes, level two is the maximum.

    DWC:

    Take a look for Anedhel's posts in the Combat logs thread, he's about the only DWC Knight who has posted logs recently that I recall.

    Dual cutting can only target a single bodypart per doubleslash. Damaged torso is hidden, so they'll either need a self limb counter to tell their curing that they have the affliction or diagnose when they think they have it or manually apply restoration when they think they have it. Against a lot of people, you can break torso first, then break both legs, without them applying to torso and allowing the impale prior to the first restoration fixing a leg.

    Falcon hits on a timer, I don't think it saves up a hit if it's not aggressive when it would normally hit. It doesn't do enough damage to really be worthwhile anyway.

    Loki - and a few others - can't be envenomed. Voyria is the only hidden venom that I can think of that can be used on weapons, but it has a ton of symptom messages before it becomes threatening.

    Impale stops movement, outrifting, a lot of attacks, a lot of defensive abilities. Pretty much anything that requires both arms free should be stopped by impale. Impale itself won't prevent or cancel tumbling.

    Runewarden questions:

    Artefact scimitars aren't required at all now, especially at a midbie level.

    As a Runewarden, not sure. Can be used prone and off equilibrium, but requires (I think) at least one arm free. Useful for preventing shatter, instant kills, etc. in a state that you otherwise couldn't.

    Bleeding alone isn't enough to pressure mana, I suspect. Combined with Pithakhan to remove all of their mana it does add up though.

    Eihwaz probably isn't worth taking. Nairat or Pithakhan are your best options as dual cutting. Hugalaz doesn't do enough damage on scimitar hits to really justify not using one of those two.

    You can still do hugalaz + thurisaz/meteor, sure, but it's going to be a lot less effective nowadays than it was pre-Weaponmastery. Might kill some people, but won't kill anybody worthwhile, especially with zero artefacts.

    Not generally possible, no. Kola is a basic defence that allows them to wake up instantly (different to metawake), and since you deal damage when you attack, you'll wake them up and put them back to sleep rather than stripping it (damageless sleep abilities will strip kola if they're already asleep). If you can get them asleep post-starburst before they put kola up then it can work, or if they walk into a totem.

    If you can get them without mana, you can essentially get a (temporary, if they have passive mana regen) truelock, since 0 mana does the same thing as impatience (prevents focusing as an alternative form of curing anorexia). That means they can't cure anything, which in turn means you can give afflictions to prevent them from attacking you. Also means they can't sip health, so you can just straight up damage them out with doubleslashes. Adding additional focus cured afflictions reduces the odds of focusing curing anorexia, keeping the lock longer, if they do regain enough mana to focus.

    VallieShirszaeExelethril
  • VallieVallie Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    On mobile, sorry in advance for not directly quoting.

    First of all, thanks for the info everyone, clears up a lot!

    @Dunn I'll take you up on that offer in the future for sure, it sounds way more suited to my interests than disembowel!

    Is othala always better than thurisaz? Since othala would be repeated? And is sketched hugulaz a one time thing or also ongoing in the room?

    I also keep forgetting anorexia can be venom delivered here. Speaking of which, what affects venom delivery chance? Most of the logs I've seen, poisons on weapons seem like they always deliver.

    Can you actually just...walk around with a totem and set it up quickly? I'm getting some WoW  Tauren vibes :D

    What are things that stop people from being able to tumble, or stop a tumble in progress? Is this any different from somersault? 

    Can you barge someone who's off balance?
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 688 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2016
    Pretty much nothing stops a tumble from starting short of being off-eq/bal. You can stop a tumble by forcing the target to move in a direction via a force command.

    Venom delivery is 100%.

    You can just walk around with a totem. Propping is a channeled action.
    SzanthaxVallie
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,813 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2016
    Man, only 4 hours past and I'm late to a DSL shop-talk? Some assorted points:

    I usually refer to limb breaks in 3 levels, as they appear on Diagnose:
    Level 1: crippled (mending salve)
    Level 2: damaged (restoration salve)
    Level 3: mangled (restoration salve)
    Fixing any stage just moves it down to the next stage, so an L3 limb would be cured completely with restoration, restoration, mending.

    Straight Thurisaz stacks (Thurisaz x3, Hugalaz, DSL ad nauseum) aren't as effective now that scimitars are 53 damage (compared to the 70-90 damage rapiers we used to use) though you could still kill inexperienced enemies with battleaxes this way. More effectively, a quick Hugalaz sketched right before your Disembowel setup to add some damage to ensure that kill. With 18 STR (reasonable unartied) you're going to deal about 92% of their max health with your Lagua bonus, so you do need to make sure they're missing that 8-10% at the time the Disembowel lands. The leg breaks and Impale can often cover this, but Hugalaz, since they start dealing damage the moment you regain balance from sketching them, are good for guaranteeing it.

    Othala is more like Hugalaz than Thurisaz, and they serve different roles. Thurisaz is a single hit with a 10-sec delay, starting the moment you finish sketching, good for out-of-room damage like metoers. Othala and Hugalaz are both 3-4 hits, 2 seconds apart, starting immediately after finishing sketching, but only in-room. Hugalaz is a bit more damage, but Othala breaks shields and prismatic barriers. It also works for the tactic above.

    Eihwaz can be marginally useful for hiding the kelp affs that are usually on your right-hand sword, (Left sword always hits first, so you generally want to put curare on that one. If the first sword hits and paralyzes, there's no chance of them Dex-dodging the second sword) but I wouldn't say it fires often enough to really have a huge impact. You would be better served with Pithakhan for the mana drain, or Nairat for the hindrance/parry bypass if you want to go that route. The nairat route requires epteth spamming, so you don't get any other affliction benefits, though. Not my favourite tactic for that reason. Hugalaz, of course, should always be on your axes, if you choose to carry them.

    DSL Runewarden unfortunately does not have much going for it other than Disembowel. I wish that was different, but for now they don't really have a way to punish good Disembowel dodging, and don't have much in the way of non-Disembowel kills. Mana locks are often cited, but it's my personal opinion that manalocks only work against reckless or inexperienced foes. Defensive-minded fighters can just step away from you to heal mana when it gets <30%. They have to kinda -let- you mana lock them.

    Runewarden has no real way to stop a Tumble, but Tumble time is extended by the number of damaged limbs they have. It's usually 4s to tumble out, (+1s to regain balance) +.5s per damaged arm/leg. Intimidate (the Weaponmastery skill) lengthens Tumble time by +1s if they have 2 damaged legs. The end result is that you can never completely prevent someone from Tumbling off an Impale, but you can make it take long enough that they must tumble very quickly after the 1st leg break in order to get out in time. Most don't.

    Since everything else has been covered, here's a pretty clean log, DSL vs slightly dated Monk. (They have new tricks now.) Few things to note:
    • Note clear highlights of the target's salve applies. While applies can be faked, this is still your best indication of breaks.
    • Note how, in the first Disembowel attempt, he applied to legs before I Impaled. This means one of his legs was fixed before my Impale, which is why he escaped. Writhing off an Impale takes 2.5s normally, but 5.5s if you have 2 damaged legs at the time of Impale. This is why you need both legs damaged.
    • This log took place back when scimitars were just a hair too slow to use efficient leg>leg>Impale setups. I saw this in the first failed attempt, and thus for the rest of the fights I was breaking arms/heads before legs to pad my Impale window. (They apply to the arm/head, and cannot apply immediately on the leg break, giving me more time) This is no longer the case, you can go leg>leg>Imaple with forged weapons now if you queue, but it's good to know that you have the option to pad your time as I do here.
    • Note that while I actually don't queue my regular attacks, I do queue my Disembowel setup, for this reason.
    • Note euphorbia use to bypass parry. Note how I watch for ginseng eats to tell me they don't have euphorbia. I hit parry a fair few times, and it almost always occurs after they touch Tree, since I don't know if it cured the euphorbia or not. I don't use a scripted affliction tracker, but by coloring the different cures, I can roughly keep track of key afflictions.
    • Note how often Pithakhan procs. This guy was probably redlining mana most of the fight, especially if he was using any of Kaido's mana-draining defenses. I'm not using Contemplate here because I'm choosing to Engage after each DSL instead, but if you have it in Vision, then you can use Contemplate after each DSL (uses EQ, doesn't require balance) to see where their mana is. This is how you get the most out of mana locks, if you want to try them.
    • This was also back when RSL was a set speed, so using battleaxes during RSL was optimal. This is no longer the case, now RSL is weapon-dependent, so RSL'ing with scimitars is good because it's fast, and RSL with battleaxes is good(?) because it hurts. (I haven't used it since this change, it may be too slow to be useful at all.)
    Case study for nuances and follies in limb counting, if you want to get into the nitty gritty: 
    • If it's not apparent, my prompt limbcounter (which is SvoF's standard) is ordered: left arm, right arm, left leg, right leg, head, torso. (With the assumed breakpoint in white)
    • After the first Disembowel that triggers his Vitality, I hit his head with battleaxes, but count those hits the same as my scimitars. Because of this, later in the fight when I'm prepping his head, it breaks before I expect it to. (My count says 8/11, but he applies to head and focuses. (The focus being a pretty good indication that was not a faked apply)
    • Note my failure to reset his head count at that point, even though I use Predict to verify his head was undamaged. Because of this, when I hit his head a bit later, my count says it "broke" when that obviously isn't the case. At that point, I realize my error, and move to prep the arm instead.
    • This is a common situation in limbcounting. When you break a limb in error, or when your assumed breakpoint is in error, you must remember to reset your count when the limb is reset. Predict is good for verifying this.
    • Also, you must be careful about hitting limbs while they're being fixed. Others have mentioned that the limb damage is cured when restoration takes effect. This means when you break a limb (and reset your mental count to 0) and they apply restoration to it, but then you hit that limb again, (setting your mental count to 2) when their restoration salve takes effect, your 2 hits will be fixed alongside the actual limb damage. Thus you will think you have 2 hits on that limb that you actually don't, and if you don't realize this, your count will get more and more inaccurate as you keep breaking that limb late, confused as to why.
    • Remember, remember, remember, the limbcounter just does math, it can't tell you the truth. Trust what you see with your eyes, not what your counter tells you.
    Just as everyone else has offered, my door's always open. Feel free to PM me or look me up in-game.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    ShirszaeVallieDochitha
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,350 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I honestly think you would be surprised by the number of people that get manalocked.


    AnedhelMizikFinkleDochitha
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The mana drain with Pithakhan's super strong. Mizik totally kicked my ass with it.

    Nairat change also makes two-leg damage setups a bit more viable, since you can't stand up if you're off-eq and the guaranteed nairat proc on a prone opponent basically guarantees you're going to get a shiver before you cure two broken legs (not to mention Isaz'll probably tick while you're on the floor). If you set up both legs, and sketch Hugalaz, break leg one, break leg two, and hammer away with sensitivity, darkshade during the day, and euphorbia, you can probably kill a lot of people who aren't artied/have crazy resistances (specially if you also have Nauthiz down, which in most cases you probably ought to). You'll definitely need a strength-spec, though, for that. 

    Runie DWC pretty strong!
  • VallieVallie Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Aerek wow, that's an awesome resource, thank you! The explanation really helps me follow what's going on. Seems like monks setup crazy fast, and you just need to always have a wunjo/nairat setup next door.
    - Wow, pith fires all the time. Definitely curious to see how Dunn takes advantage of it now!
    - I noticed a few spots you disengaged immediately after engage, is there a particular reason?
    - I thought paralysis stopped parry already, is the paralysis+nausea for alternating on every other combo to keep one effect on them? So you advance the kelp stack one poison every other combo?
    - It didn't seem like he used rebounding?
    - Does vitality always trigger, even if your disembowel would take them below 0%?

    @Anedhel Oh, I didn't even know about this 100% thing on prone, that's pretty cool!
    - Does hugalaz disappear after it's activated? Otherwise there'd be 3 runes in the room (isaz hugalaz nauthiz), and truesketch only allows for 2?
    - My initial read for nauthiz implied to me a hunger attrition thing because of previous experience...I'm guessing that's not the case.
    - Is darkshade damage % based? Does it tick on time or when a certain event occurs? Does nausea from euphorbia also cause damage?
    - Deaf doesn't block sensitivity here, right?
    I'll totally be scanning in combat logs for your dwc logs when I have a chance :)!

    Thanks everyone for the awesome in-depth replies - this blows everything out of the water in terms of other info I've seen around the forums.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hugalaz doesn't count toward the three-in-a-room limit, afaik (I might be wrong, though!).

    Nauthiz increases hunger, but it's pretty quick (a little under three minutes from 'utterly satiated' to passing out, from anecdotal experience, but I don't have the exact time on it, so I might again be wrong) and it's also silent, which means unless your opponent's specifically checking, they might not notice until they're unconscious.

    Darkshade ticks on a timer, but I don't know the frequency, someone can probably help you with that. Euphorbia's also on a timer (gut feeling tells me it's between ten and twelve seconds, but I could be wrong, I haven't paid super close attention. It's quick, though), and it does pretty massive damage (15% last I checked). Deaf does block sensitivity (as in the first dose of the sensitivity venom, prefarar, strips deaf, and then the second dose gives you the affliction, as long as you're not deaf when you're hit with it. Deafness takes time to come up after eating the herb to gain it or using a skill to put it up, so there's a window to stick sensitivity in). 

    Re: mana drain from Pithakhan, there are two main advantages. The first is that having low mana blocks your use of focus, because it has a cost to use, which means that venoms that you can normally cure using focus are suddenly venoms you have to wait for herb balance to get rid of. Anorexia's a big pain in the ass (prevents sipping health/mana elixirs and eating anything) if you can't focus it away, that's probably the most dangerous thing you can get stuck with (there are other venoms that focus helps you deal with easily, though, that also become a problem if you suddenly don't have focus available anymore). The other thing is that because of the way Runeblades are currently set up, you get a bonus to the bleeding each DSL causes, even if you're not targeting anything. It doesn't -seem- like a big deal, bleeding 300ish health... until you can't clot it, because you're out of mana. Suddenly, a class that already hurts is hurting an extra half-DSL's worth of damage every so often, and that's a big deal if your health isn't massive. Also, DSB gives you a pretty big bleed, and if you can't clot it right away, depending on the Runie's strength, it can definitely kill you. 

    Mostly, the big thing with Pithakhan (apart from the proc rate, which is I think better than any other rune's except Nairat when you're on the floor) is how much mana damage it does. It's 10% of a target's mana each time it fires (I think it still is, but I might be outdated), and you can have two of them at a time as a DWC knight. It's also silent, which means a target can't see that they're getting their mana drained (you have to be paying attention to notice it before it's a problem), but the Runewarden does see it. 
    Vallie
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,813 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dunn said:
    I honestly think you would be surprised by the number of people that get manalocked.
    I don't know if I would. Achaean combat in general has shifted more and more toward hyper-offensive, who-cares-about-defense atmosphere, to the point that I don't really know anyone that fights "defensively" anymore. The Tiracs and Santars have all gone dormant, and I don't know many others that follow my defense-first school of thought. Still, I don't get manalocked and all I do is walk away, so anyone could avoid it easily if they wanted to. Nothing wrong with using an easy tactic against easy opponents, but you gotta have a backup plan vs targets that play defense.
    Vallie said:
    @Aerek wow, that's an awesome resource, thank you! The explanation really helps me follow what's going on. Seems like monks setup crazy fast, and you just need to always have a wunjo/nairat setup next door.
    - Wow, pith fires all the time. Definitely curious to see how Dunn takes advantage of it now!
    - I noticed a few spots you disengaged immediately after engage, is there a particular reason?
    - I thought paralysis stopped parry already, is the paralysis+nausea for alternating on every other combo to keep one effect on them? So you advance the kelp stack one poison every other combo?
    - It didn't seem like he used rebounding?
    - Does vitality always trigger, even if your disembowel would take them below 0%?
    • Disengage is subject to a well-known bug that does that. It's irritating, but unless they happen to run at just that moment, it usually doesn't decide a fight.
    • Paralysis does stop parry, but because herb balance is faster than your DSL balance, and people usually prioritize it first, it's pretty tricky to stick paralysis for a whole balance to take advantage of. Euphorbia, however, is easy to bury under paralysis, and gives you pretty close to a 100% bypass. No matter if they prio nausea or paralysis, you still get through parry.
    • My kelp stacking in this fight was very lazy, because Kisharo wasn't hurting much with his combos, and he was curing paralysis>nausea>asthma, so clumsiness wasn't necessary and kelp stacking wasn't helping stick nausea. Against someone that cures paralysis>asthma>nausea, (fairly common) you can bury nausea under asthma for long periods of time, and just keep kelp stacking to replace lost affs.
    • No, he wasn't using rebounding because in earlier fights, I'd intentionally hit his rebounding to break my own limbs, fouling his setups. Rebounding is double-edged like that when you're fighting a weapon-using opponent.
    • Yes, Vitality will save you from a killing blow. I'm 99% sure that Disembowel would have killed him if he -didn't- have Vitality up.
    Other trivia:
    • Thurisaz, Hugalaz, and Othala all ignore the sketch limit. They're "instantaneous" runes, even if they have a small duration to their effect.
    • Hugalaz runeblades scale off weapon damage. Specifically, it deals additional damage equal to a normal hit of that weapon, (so a DSL that procs Hugalaz proc is like getting hit with 3 scimitars, or 3 battleaxes) but that hit deals acid damage instead of cutting damage. This bypasses cutting damage resistance (which is usually respectable) and gives hugalaz its signature sting.
    • While Pithakhan's use for mana locking is obvious, I get my mileage out of it via hindrance vs mana-using classes, (hard to fight back back when you're red-lining mana) and significantly extra damage once they can't clot anymore. (You asked earlier if the bleed from Lagul is significant. It's manageable while they can clot, but once they don't have mana to clot, it builds very quickly)
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Vallie
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,049 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I was under the impression that vitality never procs if you would bw killed by the attack. It only triggers if you would survive with health low enough to trigger it. I may be wrong, but I've never had my (very high strength) disembowel trigger vitality, it's always killed.
    Cooper
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2016
    Antonius said:
    I was under the impression that vitality never procs if you would bw killed by the attack. It only triggers if you would survive with health low enough to trigger it. I may be wrong, but I've never had my (very high strength) disembowel trigger vitality, it's always killed.
    Definitely won't help if you're going to kick the bucket. DSB's an obvious one, but magi golem pummel with sensitive didn't activate it, either, and I've seen monks die to sensitive dragon bites. If it's enough to kill you in one hit, vitality won't save you.

    ETA: Aerek's DSB must've been very close to kill, but not quite high enough strength to one-shot Kisharo when he went for it, if vitality kicked in. 
    XadenVallie
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,375 Achaean staff

    Vitality won't fire if the attack would kill you.

    Oops, truesketch abfile wasn't updated. Fixed now.

    VallieDochitha
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,813 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I can't really argue with that, if Antonius says he's never had a Monk using Vitality survive his DSBs, but that wouldn't make much sense to me. Kisharo had suffered 8 consecutive DSLs, plus the Impale damage at the time of the Disembowel, and I kill armour-plated Knights with only 3-4 DSLs leading in. He wasn't using Transmute or Kai Heal, so I don't see any way a Monk would be above 90% when that hit. The only other explanation would be that he somehow didn't have torso damage when I thought he did, but everything in that log suggests he did.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 1,874 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aerek said:
    I can't really argue with that, if Antonius says he's never had a Monk using Vitality survive his DSBs, but that wouldn't make much sense to me. Kisharo had suffered 8 consecutive DSLs, plus the Impale damage at the time of the Disembowel, and I kill armour-plated Knights with only 3-4 DSLs leading in. He wasn't using Transmute or Kai Heal, so I don't see any way a Monk would be above 90% when that hit. The only other explanation would be that he somehow didn't have torso damage when I thought he did, but everything in that log suggests he did.

    You actually have to hit the health threshold for it to fire (which if I recall correctly is 15%).

    So theoretically you may have dropped him to <1% health and then boom vitality. 

    Also not sure if numb can eat disembowel... 
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,788 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Numb can potentially.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2016
    Numb can help you survive DSBs for sure, but vitality doesn't fire, I think, if you're numbing. 

    ETA: I -think- vitality can fire when numb wears off, though, if the damage you take after numbing is in the range required to trip it, but I could be way wrong on this. 

    ETA 2: Reviewing the log, Kisharo used kai heal before the second leg break, and was able to sip twice between the first leg break and DSB. I'm not sure if he has a sip ring or not, but that's a fair amount of healing in between the breaks and the DSB. Also, what was your strength for that fight, do you remember?

    [System]: Running queued eqbal command: DSL KISHARO LEFT LEG||INTIMIDATE KISHARO
    You swing a straight, rune-etched scimitar at Kisharo's left leg with all your might.
    Lightning-quick, you jab Kisharo's left leg with a straight, rune-etched scimitar.
    Kisharo's eyes close suddenly as he falls asleep. +++ They're down! +++
    Drawing yourself up to your full height, you let out a blood curdling battlecry at the helpless form
    of Kisharo.
    Kisharo shrinks under your shout, eyes wide with panic.
    Kisharo's leftleg broke.
    H:4696, M:4271, cdbk- 0/0|10/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Kisharo opens his eyes and yawns mightily.
    H:4696, M:4271, cdbk- 0/0|0/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Kisharo clenches his fists and grits his teeth.
    H:4696, M:4271, cdbk- 0/0|0/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Kisharo eats an aurum flake.
    H:4926, M:4271, cdbk- 0/0|0/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,) (+230h, 4.7%) clearqueue all
    queue add eqbal DSL Kisharo right leg||intimidate Kisharo
    [System]: Added DSL KISHARO RIGHT LEG||INTIMIDATE KISHARO to your eqbal queue.
    H:4926, M:4271, cdbk- 0/0|0/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Kisharo whips his hands through the air, forming a red haze which disperses about his body. <--- Kai heal
    H:4926, M:4271, cdbk- 0/0|0/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    You have recovered equilibrium. (1.435s)
    H:4926, M:4271, ecdbk- 0/0|0/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Kisharo takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on his legs.
    Kisharo applied to legs!
    Kisharo applied to legs!
    H:4926, M:4271, ecdbk- 0/0|0/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Kisharo eats a ferrum flake.
    H:4926, M:4271, ecdbk- 0/0|0/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    You have recovered balance on all limbs.
    [System]: Running queued eqbal command: DSL KISHARO RIGHT LEG||INTIMIDATE KISHARO
    Lightning-quick, you jab Kisharo's right leg with a straight, rune-etched scimitar.
    You swing a straight, rune-etched scimitar at Kisharo's right leg with all your might.
    Drawing yourself up to your full height, you let out a blood curdling battlecry at the helpless form
    of Kisharo.
    Kisharo shrinks under your shout, eyes wide with panic.
    Kisharo's rightleg broke.
    H:4926, M:4271, cdbk- 0/0|0/10|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Kisharo takes a drink from an oaken vial. <-- Sip 1
    H:4926, M:4206, cdbk- 0/0|0/0|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,) (-65m, 1.5%) clearqueue all
    queue add eqbal impale Kisharo
    [System]: Added IMPALE KISHARO to your eqbal queue.
    H:4926, M:4206, cdbk- 0/0|0/0|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    You have recovered equilibrium. (1.302s)
    H:4926, M:4191, ecdbk- 0/0|0/0|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,) (-15m, 0.3%)
    You have recovered balance on all limbs.
    [System]: Running queued eqbal command: IMPALE KISHARO
    You draw your blade back and plunge it deep into the body of Kisharo impaling him to the hilt.
    Justice come. Judgment be done.
    fury on
    H:4926, M:4191, ecdbk- 0/0|0/0|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Your eyes rage with fury.
    +++ Reason has failed, it is time for wrath! +++
    H:4926, M:4191, cdbk- 0/0|0/0|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,) clearqueue all
    queue add eqbal disembowel Kisharo||engage Kisharo
    [System]: Added DISEMBOWEL KISHARO||ENGAGE KISHARO to your eqbal queue.
    H:4926, M:4191, cdbk- 0/0|0/0|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Kisharo takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on his legs.
    Kisharo applied to legs!
    Kisharo applied to legs!
    H:4926, M:4266, cdbk- 0/0|0/0|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,) (+75m, 1.7%)
    You have recovered equilibrium. (1.982s)
    H:4926, M:4266, ecdbk- 0/0|0/0|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    Kisharo takes a drink from a tourmaline vial. <-- Sip 2
    H:4926, M:4266, ecdbk- 0/0|0/0|0/0|11 ( 0, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0,)
    You have recovered balance on all limbs.
    [System]: Running queued eqbal command: DISEMBOWEL KISHARO||ENGAGE KISHARO
    With a vicious snarl you carve a merciless swathe through the steaming guts of Kisharo, who gurgles
    and chokes as you withdraw your dripping blade, glistening with gore.
    engage Kisharo
    Kisharo swoons for a moment then rises again, flushed but strong.
    You move in to engage Kisharo.


    Vallie
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,049 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Numb can reduce it, though if they eat a torso damage disembowel plus follow up damage, they're probably going to die when it wears off. 23 strength torso damage disembowels do enough damage that it's rare for anybody to survive, especially when there's generally a lot of damage coming immediately before that, too. Issue is primarily against people that can prevent me from disembowelling them in the first place.
    Aerek said:
    Case study for nuances and follies in limb counting, if you want to get into the nitty gritty: 
    • If it's not apparent, my prompt limbcounter (which is SvoF's standard) is ordered: left arm, right arm, left leg, right leg, head, torso. (With the assumed breakpoint in white)
    • After the first Disembowel that triggers his Vitality, I hit his head with battleaxes, but count those hits the same as my scimitars. Because of this, later in the fight when I'm prepping his head, it breaks before I expect it to. (My count says 8/11, but he applies to head and focuses. (The focus being a pretty good indication that was not a faked apply)
    • Note my failure to reset his head count at that point, even though I use Predict to verify his head was undamaged. Because of this, when I hit his head a bit later, my count says it "broke" when that obviously isn't the case. At that point, I realize my error, and move to prep the arm instead.
    • This is a common situation in limbcounting. When you break a limb in error, or when your assumed breakpoint is in error, you must remember to reset your count when the limb is reset. Predict is good for verifying this.
    • Also, you must be careful about hitting limbs while they're being fixed. Others have mentioned that the limb damage is cured when restoration takes effect. This means when you break a limb (and reset your mental count to 0) and they apply restoration to it, but then you hit that limb again, (setting your mental count to 2) when their restoration salve takes effect, your 2 hits will be fixed alongside the actual limb damage. Thus you will think you have 2 hits on that limb that you actually don't, and if you don't realize this, your count will get more and more inaccurate as you keep breaking that limb late, confused as to why.
    • Remember, remember, remember, the limbcounter just does math, it can't tell you the truth. Trust what you see with your eyes, not what your counter tells you.
    Just as everyone else has offered, my door's always open. Feel free to PM me or look me up in-game.
    Of course, pretty much all of these issues can be avoided - or heavily mitigated - by using a better limb counter. There's no reason not to be actually updating your counts (even if just to 0 when it says it's totally undamaged) off of Predict; 100% effective anti-illusion is not that hard to implement. Resetting your count (mental or otherwise) as soon as you think it's broken is horrible, for all the reasons you've mentioned, which is precisely why my counter doesn't do that.


    Vallie
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,813 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2016
    This log is old, Predict was actually brand-new, and I do update on it now. How do you reset your counts, if not at a predetermined breakpoint? I can't think of a way that isn't more abuseable or prone to error. I recall your first limbcounter actually reset when the target applied, which I frankly found highly error-prone.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,049 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I've never reset just on applications, as far as I recall, though earlier versions of my limb counter did reset immediately on the apply if it thought the limb was damaged (so an apply to legs when it thought both legs were damaged would reset both at the same time); that's still better - or at least no worse - than what Svo's counter does, as far as I'm concerned, but considerably worse than what my limb counter does nowadays.

    Current version resets four (actually a bit under - I think 3.8 - to handle latency, may make it a configurable option for people who play with worse latency than I do) seconds after the last application, if it knows about a damaged limb cured by applying to that bodypart. So if I see an application to legs, four seconds later (assuming no other applications by that target since) it will check if the left leg is damaged (i.e. percentage exceeds 100%) and reset its count to 0 if it is damaged, otherwise does the same check for right leg. That's a tiny bit simplified since it also handles mangles first now (will reduce to 100 rather than 0 if it think it's mangled). That means that any hits that happen after it becomes damaged but during the restoration window automatically get wiped out so they don't throw my count off.

    I also have aliases to reset manually, one for all limbs and the other for a specific limb (optionally specified, otherwise it's whatever I'm currently targetting). Plus adjusting percentages based on Predict output, if what I think they're at falls outside the rough range for the message.

    Only issues I really have are:
    1. Attacks that land during blackout. I need to create an alias to be able to add a certain number of hits to a limb so I can manually adjust, but I keep forgetting to do it.
    2. Not knowing the correct number of hits required to break. Getting super accurate break points takes a long time because I have to burn gem and grimoire cooldowns, build and lose cape stacks, etc. I also think there's issues with dual blunt and rebounding (it rebounds more limb damage than it would normally deal) that made me doubt the validity of all of the work I'd done, so need to start over at some point, including determining if there actually is an issue.
    3. Limb damage from other sources (rebounding, other people in group fights, etc.)
  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,024 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Welcome to Achaea, dude.

    Yummy DWC g's assembly. :)
    image
    Vallie
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,350 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2016
    Edited first part because I misread Aereks post. 

    The manalock is actually the 'back up' strategy that you're referring to most of the time. I go for a focuslock up front if I'm not prepping (i'm usually not), and DWC wins out in the long run with health/mana pressure into a manalock if the fight extends and they're not disengaging properly. Getting away from me isn't easy due to lunge/engage and isaz so a lot of people just stop running after awhile, which leads to eating several more pith procs. It's a nice, passive end game that I can capitalize on because I contemplate off of pith proc and adjust accordingly.


  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,076 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dunn 

    Getting away from me isn't easy due to lunge/engage and isaz so a lot of people just stop running after awhile, which leads to eating several more pith procs. 
    you missed mentioning your 50 thousand stonewalls too :(
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,813 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    Current version resets four (actually a bit under - I think 3.8 - to handle latency, may make it a configurable option for people who play with worse latency than I do) seconds after the last application, if it knows about a damaged limb cured by applying to that bodypart. So if I see an application to legs, four seconds later (assuming no other applications by that target since) it will check if the left leg is damaged (i.e. percentage exceeds 100%) and reset its count to 0 if it is damaged, otherwise does the same check for right leg. That's a tiny bit simplified since it also handles mangles first now (will reduce to 100 rather than 0 if it think it's mangled). That means that any hits that happen after it becomes damaged but during the restoration window automatically get wiped out so they don't throw my count off.
    That does sound pretty reliable, but the bolded means it would have made the same mistake my counter did in this instance. Dude's head broke at 8 hits when the counter knew the breakpoint to be 11 due to an inaccurate damage count, (perhaps yours would factor in axes, but them hitting rebounding could result in the same scenario) so your counter wouldn't have reset the limb when he applied, either, until you stopped and Predicted; same as me. I can also think of some pre-apply and fake apply scenarios that I use or see used which might confuse your counter, but wouldn't matter to SvoF's simpler approach.

    I don't mean to harp on it, the point of my advice there was just that limbcounters always have the potential to make mistakes or be fooled, and so the player has to be alert and correct the counter, not trust it implicitly. Your statement seemed to be implying that your counter was so reliable that situational awareness was not required, which seems kinda dangerous to tell someone new to limbprep.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • VallieVallie Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 2016
    What @Dunn 's describing with playing more with the affliction stack/mana percentage feels more familiar to me, but that's mostly just because I have no experience with limbs. At this high level a discussion it sounds pretty intimidating with all the back and forth on tracking limb damage and faking applies, I'm sure it's a little easier at a level of anyone I'd be sparring in the future, but I'm still initially liking the idea of leaning on the untargetted crutch. I think on some level I feel like I'd get frustrated doing so much work setting someone up, and still not being able to be sure that my finisher would actually finish them (barring buying gauntlets/racechange). On the other hand, tumble feels pretty much unstoppable (I keep thinking there's pinleg, sleep, etc. to interrupt it), so I can understand the need to go for disembowel kills instead of trying to chase someone down - barring this stonewall maze setup.

    If I'm fighting someone who has affs setup in an adjacent room, and they move into it (let's say because they're using the wunjo/nairat for free tumbles), can I barge into the room and carry them out while ignoring the room effects? Or let's say they're east and there's a wall east in their room, can I barge them east?

    I assume that DSL has a damage bonus to it, and thus a bonus to limb damage, but is it possible to break limbs with the base jab/slash kinda thing? Could you set it up so that you do like a jab lleg/jab rleg for a double break and save yourself a balance for disembowel?

    I've read 2h sometimes uses warhammer for faster prep, does dwc ever use axes for faster prep? From Aerek's log, it didn't looklike any of the venoms particularly slowed down monk offense, and he had to tumble multiple times before he could even try his first DSB, it makes sense to me that you'd just want to get to that point more often. Plus, I assume axes can apply venoms whereas warhammer can't, so wouldn't it even have more of an edge? (Pun, haha. >_>)
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,350 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dual blunt can combo hit right and left in one combo. DSL has to be the same limb.

    To barge you need to leave the room and specify the direction that you want to barge them from the room that they're in. 

    Axes are just slow and as such can't really maintain any hindering venoms. 


    Vallie
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,813 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    • Limbcounting is complex, but it's a practical sort of complex, not a bunch of theory. Once you actually practice it for a minute, it starts to make sense very quickly. Even the pitfalls I explained in my first post are pretty logical once you have a handle on how limb damage and restoration salves work.
    • I am completely unartefacted in regards to weapons/Strength. I have 18 Strength naturally (STR spec Human, +Trait, +Jera, +Fury) which combined with Lagua's 10% Disembowel damage bonus is very comfortable. It's rare that someone survives my Disembowels as long as I make sure they're not at full health when they land. With 17 STR, (if you're one of the races with an STR penalty) there will be -some- opponents that seem to live through your DSBs, but you can still do well. A Hugalaz sketch or a few extra slashes before the leg breaks usually make up for that. You only really struggle if you kit yourself out with only 16 STR or less. 17 is viable, 18 is good, 19 or higher is brutal.
    • No, Barge would still hit the wunjo/nairat, and is stopped by walls. The wunjo/nairat setup I was using against that Monk is pretty tough to crack. As a fellow Runewarden, you could always slip that way and smudge a rune before you try an end-game setup, but that's pretty unique to fighting Runewarden. About the only analogue you'll face from other classes is Piety/Gravehands, but that's just a 33% movement block, so 66% of the time it won't stop you from chasing. (Never feels that way, but it's true!)
    • Tumble is far from unstoppable. Like I said, DSL can Intimidate to lengthen tumble time, or if they tumble at the wrong time, you can just Impale and Disembowel them before they get out. (Can't writhe off while off-balance from Tumble) Honestly, avoiding DSB can be -very- difficult. The window to tumble is 1 second after the first leg break, if you tumble after that, the Knight can Impale/Disembowel you one way or another. If the opponent has a longer balance attack, you can technically wait until they hit you, break that first leg, and by the time they regain balance, that 1s window is gone; they're now incapable of tumbling in time.
    • I'm not sure what you mean by "damage bonus". DSL is just two swords hitting at the same time, dealing damage equal to those two hits. Runewarden does have Laguz Runeblades, which deals more limb damage than Paladin/Infernal DSL, but I don't think that's what you meant. No, you can't break both limbs at the same time, (or DSL Disembowel would be unstoppable) but as we've mentioned, DSL is designed to be fast enough that you can break leg, break other leg, Impale, and Disembowel before they get off, provided room for legitimate counterplay.
    • You can use axes to break in fewer hits, yes. If I break in 12 scimitar hits, I usually break in 6 axe hits, but your attacks come much slower and can't use afflictions that way. My afflictions weren't hindering my opponent much in that log, but like I said, I wasn't really trying to. His damage wasn't bothering me, and he was curing euphorbia>kelp, so I was just focused on getting through parry.
    • 2H warhammer breaks legs hella quick, 3-4 hits on most, but 2H is a completely different fighting style. You still use Disembowel, but that's about the only similarity to DSL, it's hard to compare the two directly.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    VallieSzanthax
  • VallieVallie Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Aerek knowing you're more or less at base strength is really encouraging :)! When I meant more damage on dsl, I had read somewhere that dsl did more damage than just two basic jabs with equivalent weapons (like the kind you use before you have a specialization). I thought this meant you could set them up with dsls and then basic jab to break the legs at the same time, but the jabs would do less damage. I was wondering if that could give you a more guaranteed DSB but I understand that would make it unstoppable so probably not!

    And yes, by tumble I meant more that you couldn't interrupt it or anything, not that you'd never land a disembowel. How does a dwc deal with somersault since it's a second faster?

    I think I saw old logs with falcons being able to strip defences, but didn't see anything in the ABs about that, was that changed?

    Am  I right in assuming battle cry is mostly used for defensive purposes?

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