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Knight Skillsets

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  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,810 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Arador said:
    The trans skill that was purposed for Diabolism was Wraith. Worked kinda like Transmog but you became a Spectral Wraith with fixed stats. Basically a special race with Mhun balance, high Con, but just about no Str, Dex or Int. Gods I wish they would revisit that proposal. Was so awesome!
    IIRC there were two such proposals floating around. One from Khoraji, and another from Batista.

    I found @Khoraji's proposal on the old forums. It's interesting. I don't agree with some of it (though apparently I did 8 years ago, lol). It seems to have been designed as an infernal-specific replacement for Necromancy, not a third skill replacing Forging and complementing Necromancy/Chivalry. As it's mainly a reskinned Necromancy, there are not as many new abilities with new mechanics as there are reskinned Necromancy abilities. I'm not sure if this is perhaps an older iteration of his proposal, as there is nothing about wraiths in there.

    I could not find @Batista's proposal after a bit of googling. IIRC it was posted to the old forums' ACC section, which is no longer accessible. I remember it involving the Wraith transformation, among other things. I vaguely remember the proposal including wraiths becoming trivially stronger at night time, which extended to the necromancy Night ability.
    image
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,693 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A unique knight skill for Infernal, Paladin, and Runewarden
    Yeah Batista's was a rework of Khoraji's when he became the Infernal class lead that added in things like Wraith. He also had a skill in there too see limb damage akin to what sawbones is now.

    Indeed it was meant as a replacement for necromancy but had some nice ideas that could be used if they intend to give each knight class something special.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Other
    As long as Runewardens aren't factional, why would we get an uber cool flavor, though?
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    Eh, 'Wielding blades and armor bearing runes that afford them the strength of the mystic devices Ayar Himself drew upon a branch of the World Tree, Runewardens hold the line in Cities across Sapience, defending their homes with steel and bow and runelore all; their ability to dominate battlefields with totems remains a cornerstone of Achaean warfare even after centuries of innovation.'

    Needs better PR.

    Edit: Alternatively, 'One of the two knight classes without vivisect, it's the only one you won't need about 400cr to get swords worth using as.' Different strokes for different folks!
    Asami
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,039 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't think Runewardens are uninteresting at all, actually. They're essentially geomancers/earth mages that channel their magic through runes and connections forged thereof. It's a pretty untapped pool of lore that I think could benefit from a bit of extrapolative lore, but they're pretty awesome in their own right.

    At a face value they're perhaps less identifiable than the other Knight classes, but they're just as interesting.
    :pleased::pleased:
    ValdenJhaeli
  • MannimarMannimar Member Posts: 973 @ - Epic Achaean
    Their lore its anything but untapped. I don't know how much it's explored in the Wardens, but the Spirit Walkers require you to know the history of Runelore to advance. It's really fascinating.
    KeiKyrraAlcinae
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,219 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Turn Xith into a wall tapestry
    From what I've heard, the Wardens trashed the origins of Runelore and Friztic wrote the book about it.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Other
    I like the look and feel of runelore just fine, but I guess I'd never expect it to be as jaw droppingly awesome as the other two knight classes.    
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,020 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2014
    Turn Xith into a wall tapestry
    Jules said:
    I like the look and feel of runelore just fine, but I guess I'd never expect it to be as jaw droppingly awesome as the other two knight classes.    
    As a skill for knights, it generally isnt.

    in connection to Shamans though, it fits quite well and even makes one pause and think "Huh...shamans may have a point about this spiritual stuff"


    Edit: Frankly Runelore is a much more spiritual embodied skill than both Curses and Vodun currently.
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    There was no option for "why would you supplement a class that is losing nothing, at all."
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
    NemutaurXithShirszae
  • NaisarNaisar Member Posts: 255 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Shecks

    There is more to class balance than combat power.  In this case, the loss of utility is an opportunity to compensate with diversity, which need not come alongside combat buffs.
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Just saying, knights have always been a 2-skill class, just as dragoncraft is a 1-skill class.  A third skillset with literally anything that affected combat in it would be too much.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
    WessuxShirszaeKeiJovolo
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,765 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Other
    Shecks said:
    Just saying, knights have always been a 2-skill class, just as dragoncraft is a 1-skill class.  A third skillset with literally anything that affected combat in it would be too much.
    If they just threw in a new skill while leaving the remaining two skills exactly as they are, you'd probably be right. It's been made pretty clear that that isn't what's going to happen, though.
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Oh, well I'm definitely into the idea of making knight classes a little more dynamic.  Personally I don't see why they just leave them be, and create "new" classes, instead.  There's nothing wrong with them as they are, why get rid of it?
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
    ShirszaeKyrraKeiHasarKafzielJovoloAelios
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,119 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A unique knight skill for Infernal, Paladin, and Runewarden
    Weaponry overhaul and diversity.
    AradorHhaos
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,595 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A unique knight skill for Infernal, Paladin, and Runewarden
    Shecks said:
    Just saying, knights have always been a 2-skill class, just as dragoncraft is a 1-skill class.  A third skillset with literally anything that affected combat in it would be too much.
    If it had its own balance, maybe, but if it was its own set of attacks that couldn't be  used simultaneously it has no effect on combat.

    For example, jesters have 3 different illusion skills. Puppet, Creator, and Hocuspocus. One in each skill. Each has its own balance, granted hocuspocus is unique, but it still takes some eq to set up. Or monks having a prone skill in each skill. As long as it fits with what knights already have it can be completely balanced.

    Same will go with forestals and magi and alchemists. (lol but plz give alchemists a 5th balance, just cause)
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Jacen
  • KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Xith said:
    If it had its own balance, maybe, but if it was its own set of attacks that couldn't be  used simultaneously it has no effect on combat.
    This is why people say you have no idea what you're talking about re: combat.

    Giving knights BBT has no effect on combat because it can't be used at the same time as disembowel?
    Jacen
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,595 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A unique knight skill for Infernal, Paladin, and Runewarden
    Is that what I said, jacktard?
    Pretty sure there was no mention of giving other classes' finishing moves to knights. On the other hand, giving knights the equivalent of blade punch would have zero unbalancing effects.
    Sort of like how they have lunge and jump kick, which are similar.

    Stop flirting with me and just pay attention to the subject matter, mmkay pumpkin?
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    KeiJacenKuySeftinAntidasShirszae
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,202 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A unique knight skill for Infernal, Paladin, and Runewarden
    image


    By your logic, you could give -any- class ALL the abilities that use balance or equilibrium, and the combat balance wouldn't be affected.
    image
    DornNimShirszae
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,595 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A unique knight skill for Infernal, Paladin, and Runewarden
    Actually that would technically be balanced, but obviously you don't give things to classes that don't fit with the other things they have or that would make them overpowered, the reason Magi don't have a command/force action skill.

    I would have thought that was obvious and didn't need to be said. But let's pat Kafziel on the head and give him a treat for the suggestion that knights do not get bbt.
    Thanks for sorting that out, man. Heroic.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,595 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A unique knight skill for Infernal, Paladin, and Runewarden
    Backing up a sec though, my point was exactly that. If we assume bbt is balanced as a skill, then you could give a clone of that to any other prep/damage class that breaks limbs at a similar speed and the class would still be balanced.
    But stupid random ideas aside, it's possible to add a 3rd combat skill to knights and still have balance. How do we know this? Cause they're gonna fucking do it.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,765 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Other
    Xith said:
    Backing up a sec though, my point was exactly that. If we assume bbt is balanced as a skill, then you could give a clone of that to any other prep/damage class that breaks limbs at a similar speed and the class would still be balanced.
    Not necessarily. Having more options can make a big difference. For an extreme example, if you gave knights 10 different finishers that are all exactly as damaging and take the same amount of limb prep as disembowel, it would still be a massive buff if they had even slightly different requirements.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,595 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A unique knight skill for Infernal, Paladin, and Runewarden
    How is variety a buff? What am I missing?
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 243 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Because if you have an instakill that requires both legs to be broken and a second one that requires both arms to be broken, if you add a third in which you need a single arm and a single leg to be broken, it is a buff because you now have more circumstances you can instakill people.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,595 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A unique knight skill for Infernal, Paladin, and Runewarden
    So don't make them all limb based i guess. I mean apostates can go for either limbs or mana. Or a lock and whatever they choose.

    That variety wasn't what I mean though. Just more ways to set up the 1st kill. Or an additional kill strat that requires different conditions. Like alchemists.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    I don't. What? Ok.
    DartegaShirszae
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 243 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    If you have one kill method, the victim only has to stop that one set of circumstances. The more methods you have to kill someone, the harder it is to avoid all of the different circumstances that end up with you dead. Unless they require mutually exclusive conditions, more kill varieties means it is easier to set up one condition from any starting point.

    Say for instance that Class X  could only disembowel (and for arguments sake disembowel is instakill) to kill someone. To get to that point, they need to prone the target and impale. To avoid this, the victim only needs to worry about keeping their legs unbroken and not being paralyzed or webbed. Then say you give them incinerate. Now the victim not only has to worry about not being prone for the impale, but they have to keep their health over 50%. Then say you also gave them enlightenment. Now you have to not be prone, have to keep your health over 50% and can't have more than Y mental afflictions. All of these have different conditions, but because you have each of them at your disposal, the complexity of making sure any of the conditions aren't met increases dramatically.

    Having vastly different kill methods actually increases the power of the class far more than having virtually identical, because it makes the curing priority that much more complex and you can switch between the methods mid fight easy enough. If you just want different paths to the same result, well that pretty much involves adding in more essentially useless buffering afflictions so you can stick the things that matter, or making gimmicky systems that are never really as fun as the stuff the combat system was designed around.
    Atalkez
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