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Knightly questions!

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  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,222 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's my pug, Lucy :) 

    All knight classes are fun. I've only ever seriously played runewarden, though, and thoroughly enjoyed it. Not having to be in a turbo aligned faction is a bonus as a runie, but that's my opinion.


  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,914
    Technically he could be a non-Mhaldorian Infernal and be perfectly fine as long as he didn't attack Mhaldor.

    Bringing up irrelevant things like that to a discussion on the differences between the classes is a bit ridiculous.
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    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Shirszae
  • SteuernSteuern Member Posts: 15 ✭✭ - Stalwart

    @Dunn Awesome! Mine is named Oscar haha, he's kind of old now but the best dog ever :) I've been a runewarden in the past and I have a young paladin now, he's kind of fun I guess I like how he can help others, always been a perk to me.

  • IsaiahIsaiah GeorgiaMember Posts: 136 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Antonius said:

    @Jules: Runewarden is the video that makes you feel slightly unclean after watching, regardless of how much you enjoyed it at the time.

    2 girls 1 cup?

    Eat like a caveman, train like a beast. Champions are not born, they are made. 

    ExelethrilJhuiKerria
  • ExelethrilExelethril EleusisMember Posts: 2,876 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Infernals definitely have an edge here, I think. There are so many ways to pull off a vivisect and a few of them require someone to restore at a 1 second(?) margin with frenzy up to avoid it. Also, vivis are kinda easy to pull off and more efficient than disembowel as a finisher, sometimes.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
    Wessux
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,087 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Vivi is very situational. If you're a Knigh and you get vivisected for example, you did something terribly wrong. If anything, it's a perfect parry bypass for disembowel. (Damage>Vivisect) it's probably one of the most perfect abilities in the game that the rest should strive to be.

    Infernal is just the coolest, though. Infernal all teh way.
    Exelethril
  • ExelethrilExelethril EleusisMember Posts: 2,876 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    Vivi is very situational. If you're a Knigh and you get vivisected for example, you did something terribly wrong. If anything, it's a perfect parry bypass for disembowel. (Damage>Vivisect) it's probably one of the most perfect abilities in the game that the rest should strive to be. Infernal is just the coolest, though. Infernal all teh way.
    Hmm, what makes knights less susceptible to vivisect? Also, parry bypass for disembowel in what sense, by the way? You can still writhe off being impaled while off EQ from restoring. Also, nothing to stop someone from switching his/her leg parry after the breaks are healed.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

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  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,087 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Knights are less susceptible to vivisect because they have a faster max attainable speed and often reach (and quite easily) speeds of two seconds. This makes it simple enough to always be on balance at a time when you need to restore. They also have access to Arc while off equilibrium from restore, which they can afflict the Infernal with paralysis should they try to shatter.

    It's a parry bypass because to avoid the vivisect, you need to either delay restoration curing on the first break (which leaves you with broken arms for a long amount of time), or you must restore. If you do the latter, which you probably will, this means you're off equilibrium for about 9 seconds. You can't successfully STAND for the entire duration of those 9 seconds, which renders your parry useless. It doesn't matter if they switch parry when they stand.

    Writhe has nothing to do with bypassing parry. It's just a strong way to force an opponent into giving you both of their legs with minimal effort, which you can set up for a quad break attempt at a vivisect, a rift/pipe lock with frenzy or a disembowel.

    I know you didn't ask by the way, but it's one of my favourite abilities due to the user-input that it requires from you as a player in dealing with it, and it makes it a lot more interesting for both parties as a result. My fights against Tirac and Carmain are my all time favouries because it wasn't a battle of people just aiming to get around Svo.
    Exelethril
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,222 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    Infernals definitely have an edge here, I think. There are so many ways to pull off a vivisect and a few of them require someone to restore at a 1 second(?) margin with frenzy up to avoid it. Also, vivis are kinda easy to pull off and more efficient than disembowel as a finisher, sometimes.
    You've generally got more than one second of leeway for a Restore, but I will add to yours that vivisect is very easy to pull off against people who don't know how to deal with it, and a giant headache against people who do.

    @Tirac. I'm talking about Tirac. I have never been so perplexed during a fight as sparring him until I figured out what he was doing, then I gave up out of exasperation.

    EDITED: Pulled out the specifics of his curing.

  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,713 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The 99.9999999% way to prevent vivisect isn't really a secret anymore. It's built into Omni, and SVO has a (fairly) easy way to configure it too. I can only think of two ways to vivisect Tirac/Carmain types. And no one has ever done it ever, so I'm not even sure it can be pulled off.

    I've heard people talking about using shatter to vivisect them, but that's not viable because they'll be using arc paralysis to stop that after it happens once.

  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,693 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Can't arc with two broken arms anymore.

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,087 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shatter is like a three second balance minimum (waiting for it to hit), you can just apply restoration to your arm as soon as they start it and they won't be able to capitalise from it. Then you have freedom to arc as much as you like.

    But wtf, what a stupid change.

  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,693 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Actually it is pretty much in line with most other changes like Vigour not being done with two broken arms etc. I wonder if they are going to do the same with hindering abilities from other classes while prone and with broken arms. Monks come to mind.

  • XliXli Member Posts: 354 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Arador said:
    Actually it is pretty much in line with most other changes like Vigour not being done with two broken arms etc. I wonder if they are going to do the same with hindering abilities from other classes while prone and with broken arms. Monks come to mind.
    Monk hindering abilities are all based around telepathy and kaido, which are mental abilities, not swing limbs around the place.
    Hiroma tells you, "I just got to listen to someone complain about your deadly axekick being the bane of their existence."
    Archdragon Mizik Corten, Herald of Ruin says, "Man, that was a big axk."
    Hellrazor Cain de Soulis, Sartan's Hammer says, "Your [sic] a beast."
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,494 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xli said:


    Arador said:

    Actually it is pretty much in line with most other changes like Vigour not being done with two broken arms etc. I wonder if they are going to do the same with hindering abilities from other classes while prone and with broken arms. Monks come to mind.

    Monk hindering abilities are all based around telepathy and kaido, which are mental abilities, not swing limbs around the place.


    While true, with two broken arms you shouldn't be thinking about crushing someone's mind, or have the mental capacity to do so, you should be thinking oh shit my arms are fucked let me heal these.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Xli
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,713 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Alternatively, monks are masters of the mind and can make their body ignore all the damage it receives (temporarily) and all the venoms (kind of permanently), so it makes sense they can still use their mental abilities when their body is damaged.

    XliIakimenNemutaurMizik
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,733 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    The entire point of Tekura and Kaido is mastery over the self, and it does make sense for a skilled Monk to be completely able to ignore the pain and other interrupting aspects that having two very badly broken limbs would have on the average soldier. This extends to kai abilities being able to be used while transfixed, prone and otherwise completely incapacitated - makes a lot of sense from an IC perspective, but is absolutely terrible as far as mechanics go.
    :pleased::pleased:
    AradorNemutaurPraxides
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,494 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:

    The entire point of Tekura and Kaido is mastery over the self, and it does make sense for a skilled Monk to be completely able to ignore the pain and other interrupting aspects that having two very badly broken limbs would have on the average soldier. This extends to kai abilities being able to be used while transfixed, prone and otherwise completely incapacitated - makes a lot of sense from an IC perspective, but is absolutely terrible as far as mechanics go.

    How do monks die? =p


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,087 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Arador said:

    Actually it is pretty much in line with most other changes like Vigour not being done with two broken arms etc. I wonder if they are going to do the same with hindering abilities from other classes while prone and with broken arms. Monks come to mind.

    Vigour is understandable, as it was broken. Arc was just COOL. Rip.
  • KakotasKakotas Member Posts: 261 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Paladin RP is pretty much dead/on hold for the moment. A few of us still are trying but no house or major way of organization means no really effective means of Knighting which kind of kills Paladin as a Knight RP.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,349 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You mean Guardians/Templars RP is pretty much dead/on hold. 

  • KakotasKakotas Member Posts: 261 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2013
    Paladin... because they have no home now. Even if Targossas is officially the location for paladins and even if the new twins control devotion, there is no honor recognizing organization to Knight them. As always Divine Knightings were an exception to the rule but there is no path to Knighthood for a Paladin at the moment.

    And as an Addendum... Historically speaking Templars are paladins and paladins are Templars. The class was so tied to the house (as is with most knightly houses) that you cannot really separate them very much. Which is why there will be no knightly house in Targossas apparently. *Spoilers*
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
    TeshaAntidas
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,243 Achaean staff

    Kai cripple at least requires two unbroken arms.

    Mind disrupt requires the monk be standing.

    Batter is about the only one (short of paralysing off of herb balance, I suppose) that you can't account for in some form with your setups.

    PenwizeAradorNemutaur
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,693 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh there are millions of reasons from an RP perspective why it should be possible to crush or batter with broken arms while prone but sadly it does not fall in line with combat mechanics all the time. When there is no realistic way to disable something on an enemy it becomes a bit much. There is no real way to shatter against a monk if he has Kai. I can not think of another class that can claim that. Knights used to be able to claim such with Arc but that was brought in line.

  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,243 Achaean staff

    A big consideration with arc was limiting it while still keeping it unique. Hence we left it able to be used off eq but made something stop it so knights could still restore/arc and arc while disrupted and such.

    Anyway, if you think something needs adjusting, five hours until classleads close.

  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,693 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Personally I think arc is fine the way it is now. It is powerful and has use but is still stopable in a reasonable manner. I like to see ways for limb damage classes to stop certain abilities with some extra work as some are only really stopable by affliction classes. Prone with hindered arms is a great mechanism for this. New shrugging is another ability that comes to mind in this case as well as priest healing or apostate syphon. In fact most passive abilities.

  • PenwizePenwize Member Posts: 1,170 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Arador said:
    There is no real way to shatter against a monk if he has Kai. I can not think of another class that can claim that. Knights used to be able to claim such with Arc but that was brought in line.
    I'm not sure what kai has to do with that.  What kai ability prevents shatter that's unstoppable?  Cripple's stopped with broken/crippled arms, enfeeble wouldn't stop a shatter, and choke would only get one through during a shatter (curing off = no breaking held breath) so the damage isn't much of a threat there. 

    The only monk ability that'll stop a shatter while hindered is mind paralyse or a perfectly timed mind batter (so the stun hits just as the shatter ends).  Mind paralyse is available to anyone with a torc, too, so it's more than just monks that can stop that.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Everyone can also tumble over an icewall, so I don't see how shatter's unstoppable or anything.
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