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Comments
If solid advice isn't welcome, then that's fine, but I'd have to ask that you stop suggesting that I am somehow a jerk or something for having a level 3 mace (not even Nimble btw) or that Smite is somehow overpowered (it only does 30% max health because of poor armor, no shield, poor stance choice, sipping the wrong elixir, and having low max health).
Blademaster is arguably the class best suited to counter Piety in the game.
- Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
"Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
You're wrong. I've repeatedly stated, and explained, how the problem is not just priest. I am not loyal to any particular class, as I rarely go more than a few months as any specific one. In fact, I just switched from Blademaster, and still have one. Having played it, and still continuing to, I still openly state that Evade prep is drastically OP, and most classes have exactly zero ways to stop it.
The only reason we're discussing Piety at the moment is because others specifically mentioned it.
Additionally, there has yet to be anything but two generalized types of responses to the discussion regarding Blademasters having evade.
1) It is dramatically overpowered against all but a few classes and needs addressed.
2) Shut up, I don't like you, or this idea, despite not having any rational feedback or response to justify it.
And I'm sorry if you don't like bashing. That's cool. All I'm saying is, it's an RPG where health is an important factor, and if you're not willing to level up, then don't come to forums complaining about the side-effects of being a low level (low health, higher percentage damage from damage attacks).
So how 'bout that health trans?? Amiright?
Seriously though I'd kinda like to see it at much lower cost and way lower max. 50% is a LOT.
Thoughts?
- Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
"Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
Health Trans just got buffed to that. Personally I am going to submit a classlead to have it either not work prone, or have a significantly slower eq recovery. Just doesn't make sense for BMs to be able to sip/trans/potash for like 90% health, before regen, while prone.
Mana trans also makes absolve/catharsis/inundate pretty much impossible without a truelock (which is, as already discussed, impossible against a BM who uses evade/fitness/alleviate correctly)
50% mana out of nowhere (especially for people who already have 7k+ mana) also pretty much eliminates brokenstar as a kill strategy against other Blademasters, unless your opponent is dumb enough to drop down to super-low mana levels while prepped for bstar sequence.
Insults in response to well-substantiated, unbiased claims from someone who undoubtedly does actually know what they're talking about.
An oldy but a goody. /getting trolled
Monk and Knight are the biggest ones hit by it. it's useful vs other ones but doesn't do the major damage it does to those two. with that being said.
Knight is getting changed soon, how much you actually need disembowel to kill someone with in the future will be debated off that. ( mostly looking at runewardens since vivi/damnation is looking strong.
Also on that note, Monk can actually double break before you can regain the shin to use it again. (specially since voidfist + torc on breaks is basically gone now)
Let's consider this at 4k mana and even with robes of the magi.
That's 173.33333333 mana per clot. going to assume it ends up 173 mana. (impaleslash)
This allows for 23 clots total with out sipping or counting moon in meaning.. 460 Bleeding total clotted.
Now let's say they clot to 0ish and mana trans. back to 50%
Meaning 220 extra clot for a total of 680 bleeding clotted.
Now, Impaleslash bladetwist x3 with two impales I can guesstmate is around. 1050 Bleeding total meaning, 370 total bleeding left after double clotting to 0 (yay other person lives)
pre-Impaleslash 3 impales and 4 bladetwists Guesstimating 1400 bleeding total meaning the person, has 720 bleeding, a moss,moon and mana sip will still keep them alive here.
Broken torso Impaleslash 2 impales and 3 bladetwists. 1350 bleeding averged out so same as above pretty much.
Broken torso pre-impaleslash 3 impales and 4 bladetwists. 1700 bleeding You win!
Not to mention Blademasters can drain mana fairly quickly by forcing focus/sleeping. and mana trans isn't nearly as strong as you'd be thinking. this was also counting out of course the bleeding from the slashes and ever other variable than just the straight norms.
Blademaster has alot of ways to achieve brokenstar, but most people don't know/care/have patience to understand how everything works and how to get past those difficult situations.
And while yes some people will find breaking torsos are useless, because of slc and other types like it. but I say, Why do abilities need nerfing when Monk/knight suffers from the exact same problems.
Just my two cents.
And for the 7k+ mana thing they only get to clot 3 more times than the 4k mana thing 60 bleeding more being clotted is not that big of a deal, and in all honesty if the 4k mana has robes and the 7k mana does not the 4k mana will clot more.
And also didn't mean to double post ment to edit but my edit took to long to write with all the maths, Shin health/mana in my mind is mostly balanced due to the fact of how long it takes to build up the shin vs the amount of time it takes for most classes to throw it out. Priest is more than capable of dropping my mana past the point of no return with out evading and screaming about how much I hate priest. than I can build shen especially with no more stun on pommel strike giving me the hinderance spam I need to build up that massive supply.
And yes to build shin that quickly I have to basically spam that pommel, if I don't use fists or infuses or anything else that uses shen it can be built up in 30 secondsish with slashes, in thyr.
and although Sanya is faster to build it im of course going to be in mir to survive that massive damage priest is doing along side of dropping my mana. which slows down my shen generation hugely.
I dunno if someone was calling you a jerk or something, because honestly I haven't even bothered to read half this thread anymore. but, level 3 mace is fine. You prepare for the worst and pray for the best. so in other words we should go ahead and assume EVERYONE has a level 3 mace. because it's there and it is usable. but the reason smite does 30% damage against bm is because again it's ment to be a glass cannon class, our armor sucks, we have no shields, (honestly mir stance and shield of absorb have the sameish damage reduction% against everything but finishers) Stance is forcing us into mir, (because no one uses arash and even if they do no one tries to out damage a priest) sipping the wrong/right elixir on the other hand has to be considered because your attemping to balance out health/mana with both being drained at the same time. if your health reaches 0 you die if your mana hits 50 or 60% depending you die. in most cases that makes mana more valuable than health in the long run.
Atalkez has like 5k health, which should be more than enough for balancing combat on. Sure it's not 9600 (fuck you jhui and you clotting all that bleeding) but is what I would expect the average combatant who is using con specs over strength/int/dex to be at.
With in my mind strength/int/dex is taking that lower con for higher damage/speed and dodge over the more health and slightly more tankyness
You said "as already discussed" which somewhat implied that others agreed with your assertion. In reality, I have been very politely arguing with you about your assertion, which is untrue.
"Unbiased?" "Undoubtably does actually know what they're talking about?" Are we talking about you?
I probably know more about the priest class than any priest player (just based on what those priest players say on these forums) and have played a priest vs. several BMs. Please, just stop making yourself look like an idiot, learn your class, and let this conversation rest in peace.
I tried sticking paralysis / impatience / broken leg, etc, nothing could hold them down.
- Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
"Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
Sooner or later more BMs will realize how insanely OP this strategy is, and it will stop being an isolated issue.
Just like virtually every other thing I (and others) have stated is blatantly OP, the people currently using it raise hell and argue with personal attacks and misdirection, and then, eventually, it get fixed.
see:
"reject grace" empress illusion (Ashtan flipped out)
web/axk (every monk flipped out)
old good/evil NPC system + old Deliver (into guards etc) (Qashar flipped out because: "don't kill Good NPCs")
enfeeble/absolve (it was considered "fair" since it required two people by many)
kill rooms, old damnation (was vehemently defended by Qashar/forum crowd)
oblit + puppet summon (was unanimously hated but continued to exist for years)
tramplesect (same as enfeeble/absolve)
healing cooldowns
earrings (was always broken as hell, just as puppet travel currently is, but weren't enough in existence to cause problems)
eq reduction stacking ("We earned it, so we'll use it")
balanceless minuet (Was argued that it was required to lock, which proved to be entirely false)
mind throw off impale (was argued that monks "needed" this to survive, which is entirely false)
Myself and others publically explained why all of these things needed fixed, and in general, were insulted, berated, publically called idiots or just plain shouted down by forum/clan communities. And yet, we proved to be right about literally all of them, and many more.
We're always "wrong" until we end up being "right". It's just a shame these things have to be abused for months on end before being fixed. Why can't proving something wrong "in theory" or with a few logs prove something needs to be fixed, before it becomes evident after months of abuse? Also a shame people can't just admit that certain things their class can do are simply "broken", and have the fortitude to not abuse them to the point that they flat out require coding changes to the game.
With that said, the coding changes are necessary, because if a strategy exists, most players simply assume it's fair game. The typical argument is "if it works, use it", and frankly, it's hard to argue with that.
See: Douse
Also @Ernam: It's not that I don't agree that evade is strong, it's more that I find the things it counters to be kind of dumb and poorly designed, and therefore I want to keep evade so I don't have to deal with what I perceive to be nonsense.
RNG anti-leaving mechanics? What? Who thinks RNG is fun? Maybe if piety used up movement balance for a second or so to give the priest a chance to follow, and stripped some mana or something, I dunno, that sounds more dynamic than hoping the dice gods let me leave the room. Not that I'm suggesting that exact effect - just something tactical instead of random.
Runes/totems? Sure, but without evade my other counter is to just wait until they get bored and come attack me or something, so that's kind of dull. I guess it could be used to reset my prep or something, it's not like I can pressure them to leave from outside the room. Group combat's a different story of course, and not one I particularly know about, but while blademasters are great in group combat, I'm not so sure you're arguing from that perspective, unless I'm mistaken.
Is there anything I'm missing that makes evade so powerful? I think it's mostly just those two. I mean, it's also an engage counter if you have a nearby wall, if you really think blademasters need to be nerfed against knights for some reason.
The lack of room exit message is potentially useful, but WHO HERE and SQUINT are free actions, so I think that sort of potential for misdirection is also a fairly okay thing to have I think. And it's not like it's some grand mystery the blademaster you're fighting might evade away. Same with serpents, except at least blademasters can't hide!
Other than that, I assure you that if you have no way of keeping a blademaster in the room sans evade, dash is a much better tactic. Unless you're a serpent and have some sort of robotic reaction speed (or a really good follow script, I guess!), if the terrain's right for it, I can instantly move outside your reach.
I guess my point is that it's not that I want to keep my toy, I just don't want to deal with dumb mechanics. Fix anti-leaving mechanics so they're at least as cool as hamstring, and it'd be a lot easier to agree with you that immunity to half of them is unfair. Until then, instead of removing blademaster evade, let's give it to everyone so we can all be happy together!
(I guess it also bypasses traps, however those things work, maybe that's OP too, I dunno!)
The problem with Evade is that it was designed for Serpent, which relies purely on affliction momentum to win fights.
When the mechanic was casually given to a new class without modification or (sorry if this comes off as rude) without thinking through the consequences of giving this to a class that doesn't rely on momentum, almost whatsoever, that's when it became a problem.
The issue with changing Evade directly is that it would effectively nerf Serpent, which I don't believe is necessary, at all (although I do suggest adding a few more afflictions that hinder Evade in general - dizziness/weariness).
Thus, the real solution is to just remove it from Blademaster. They already have Leap, which absolutely solves the problem of them not being able to fight mounted, and lacking mobility, and frankly, I don't see what's wrong with comparing Blademaster combat to that of Bard or Monk, which are both "squishy" classes, and also rely heavily on prepping limbs, but don't have access to either Leap or Evade, and do just fine.
I'm not going to say that I was the "best" blademaster ever (because I wasn't) but I played it extensively and fought nearly everyone in the top 20 active fighters and can definitely say that I never needed Evade to win fights, or survive. Its existence in the class is an absolutely unnecessary luxury.
It's also worth mentioning that (IIRC) original Blademaster didn't have Leap. It was brought up that BM needed some buffs to compensate for not being able to use mounts, and Leap was added to help with this. At that time, Evade became totally unecessary for the class.
That's simply not true. Go back and you'll see numerous people explaining several points:
(1) Counter-strategies.
(2) Discussion of why, in the grand scheme of things this isn't a huge problem (some classes will always struggle against some other classes, and this isn't a universal problem against BMs, though I agree with you that it does extends past just priests).
(3) Discussion of why, even if it has problems, evade also solves problems in the balancing of BM (allowing people to mitigate damage spikes).
(4) Discussion of why it isn't a problem that a class has to make a mistake to lose.
I'm not in any real position to evaluate the validity of any of those (though several of the people posting them certainly are), but it simply isn't true that everyone is just responding with "personal attacks and misdirection" to save something OP from being fixed. Because, at numerous points, people have given you reasons and legitimate responses. The reason people are largely no longer responding with those points is that most of them have already been brought up. The problem here is not that people aren't saying constructive things, it's that you've dismissed everything anyone else has said out of hand as though your word was absolute, decided that your response was the final word on the matter and the issue was resolved, and repeated yourself over and over in response, all the while repeatedly insisting that you "know what you're talking about" (which is obnoxious regardless of whether or not it's true).
You might be right - I certainly don't think I'm in a position to know the answer to this issue - but in terms of how this thread is progressing, you are creating the problem you seem to see here.
...
To get back on track with actual discussion, one thing that I think hasn't been mentioned is the utility afforded by evade. Evade is extremely handy for things like avoiding mindnet and other detection mechanisms. And given that BM has no range whatsoever, the ability to move around a bit more quietly is very useful, maybe even essential for how the class is played outside of 1v1 duels. If evade is causing problems in combat and needs to be mitigated somehow, I think some mechanism for preventing it via an affliction is desirable over its outright removal from shindo. That or give BMs archery or something like that (which has always seemed to fit the "samurai" theme to me, but has been denied in the past).
@Nim
Your opinions on things like Piety/Gravehands/Tentacles/Homunc are noted, but I think your perspective on it is limited, and the lack of "better" suggestions is important.
Personally, having played every class in the game (-alchemist), I don't see any problem with Piety at all. In another thread, I recently listed every class in the game, and their numerous ways to completely bypass it. Personally, I think that if anything, RNG hindrance abilities are particularly weak considering that it's so easy to escape (in many cases, instantly).
There's also the fact that the primary alternative to RNG based hindrance are abilities like Hamstring, Pinshot, and vines, which IMO, are far more effective for hindrance, and I would have to imagine you'd be significantly less happy if they were used instead.
It's also worth noting that all of these abilities were designed around their classes. It makes far more sense for Priests and Paladins to have RNG hindrance than it would for Blademaster/Serpent, or visa-versa, for example.
Take, for example Paladin. Paladin is balanced around use of Rites. If Piety only caused a single, 1-second delay (like Hamstring), it would be 100% worthless to use. Not only would it be meaninglessly simple and fast to leave, but all of the other rites would also be rendered useless, because who in their right mind would ever fight on them, ever, if they can just leave in 1 second? Nobody. Rites can't be moved, so considering that people can simply decide not to fight on them and walk away completely free, why would a Paladin (or Priest) ever even bother dropping them?
Blademaster and Serpent, on the other hand are designed to be highly mobile and thus, their hindrance abilities stick to the target, instead of a single room. Neither of the classes have any reason to stick to a single room (aside from lightwall, which can be cast off balance after doublestab), and thus having abilities that "stick" no matter where you go make much more sense.
I don't have many better suggestions for those abilities because I've never played those classes, so I don't really know what would fit their style. Ideally, something that keeps people from leaving easily, but does not prevent them from doing so at some cost.
My happiness is not related to my ability to win text games. I enjoy games by their mechanics, not how good I am at them. As long as the result is well-designed, I am okay with it. I just don't think RNG is a good design philosophy for something with an emphais on PvP. I read a good rationale for it for strategy games involving risk management, but Achaea is fast-paced enough that it has risk management without needing RNG.
@Tael
The reason that I've been dismissive with the majority of the responses is that in general, they haven't been solid arguments.
Stating that it's just a priest issue is simply not true. I explained this in great depth, which I wouldn't say was "argumentative" or "dismissive" on my part. There are only 2-4 classes in the game which have valid counters to BM Evade prep. If the BM insists on using icewalls, the list drops to essentially one - dragon (which can't kill artied BMs due to Health Trans and Fitness, period)
Stating that there are counters to BM Evade prep (for other classes) is also simply not true. I am still waiting for someone to post a way to kill a Blademaster that enters your room, legslashes you, and evades out, and repeats endlessly.
The only way to stop someone using this method (which is becoming quite frequent) is to have some method of "slow prepping" the BM back, as they do it to you. However, there are only a small handful of classes in the game that can initiate kill sequences that simultaneously stop Evade (Monk, Dragon, and Knights [knights only if BMs don't run on arm break, which is play error]).
Affliction classes (all of them) have absolutely no way to stop the tactic, and most prep classes can't do anything without a multi-break attack. Anyone who's ever fought a good serpent knows that if they want to bail, then they're bailing, and there's not a damn thing you can do to stop it.
The key difference (to re-iterate) with serpent is that if they want to actually win the fight, then at some point they actually have to stand in your room and try to kill you. This isn't the case with BM, at all.
Blademaster was already given a "different" version of Evade. Leap.
If avoiding things like Mindnet are really that crucial for class balance (although I don't see how this argument can really be made for BM over any other class), then give them a passive that lets them bypass it. Or: buy a veil.
What Blademasters don't need is an ability (combination of abilities w/ Hamstring) that allows nearly ignoring every form of hindrance in the game.
First, one second delays are not useless in a game where three seconds is considered awkwardly slow. It may not be gamebreakingly useful, but certainly not 100% worthless or meaningless.
Second, there's no reason it has to be one second. Piety can be changed into anything, so saying that a one second delay would be underwhelming does not prove that it should remain RNG.
Third, assuming its new effect is worse than its current effect, how would that make people be less likely to sit in it? If anything, the more dangerous effect should convince people to stay away from it.
Also, to be completely honest, I don't like room effects much either. Not on some principle that they ruin my day, but because the counter is to go and wait in another room. Not that I'm saying delete rites, but that's a pretty boring counter if you ask me. Although I don't know if moving rites would be unbalanced on its own, I think doing that would probably improve the game in some small way, even if it'd necessitate some nerf in some other area to keep things balanced.
And hey, a one second movement speed delay might be just the nerf. I dunno!
Piety averages like 10 seconds of hindrance (if you ignore the multitude of abilities that allow bypassing it).
A one second delay would be a massive nerf, and a static 10 second delay would not only be insanely overpowered, but anything over 3-4 seconds would be pointless since things like tumble, somersault, etc would be better to use than attempting to leave (procuring the delay).
The reason that Piety isn't OP is that a significant portion of the time, you get out on the first or second try, making it worth trying, but also worth using for a Devotion user.
@Nim
I'd also like to mention that I'm classleading a piety alternative for Priests, which I haven't nailed down the details of yet, but'd essentially be a mutually exclusive Spirituality (angel) ability that works akin to Occultism Tentacles, at a significant drain (to the extent that it couldn't be kept up 100% of the time).
By mutually exclusive, I mean that it wouldn't stack with Piety (similar to how Revit/Empathy and RoH/Care work)
This would allow for a minor "nerf" to Piety (not nearly as important to Paladin as it is for Priest), while allowing Priest to be a bit more mobile and less "stuck" in a single room, which I see as a pretty big problem with the class now.
You keep dodging the fact (that I keep repeating) that almost every class in the game (all but 2, maybe 3) have abilities that bypass Piety.
There are also numerous artefacts and 3rd party abilities (deliver, empress, earrings, portals, etc) that are available to every class. Also about half the classes in the game have the ability to force unenemy, and just walk out. The only class that truly has difficulty with this is Sylvan, which has access to arguably the best passive curing in the game, one of the best active cures, reflections, and Barrier (effectively negating the need for evasion). edit: Oh wait Sylvan has Grove Flow, Return, and Eject, disregard.
As it stands, Piety is "easy" to get out of, and in most cases, at most, requires 1-2 seconds of balance, or worst-case scenario, a tumble. Standing in a room smashing "east" repeatedly trying to escape is generally a poor idea, and is almost never your only option.
(2) The point can be made over most other classes because almost every other class has some kind of ranged ability (and/or can lay room hazards that persist after they leave the room). The ability to more easily get into melee undetected is much less essential for virtually every other class.
(3) Veils are one of the most expensive artefacts in the game. It's crazy to use the availability of veils in any discussion of class balance (except maybe to point out how frequently unbalancing veils themselves can be). And, as in #1, they don't let you do nearly the same range of things evade does.
Like I said, I have no ability to know whether the ability is balanced in 1v1. I just don't want to see BMs get even more screwed over by their complete lack of range.
Also, re this bit: "The reason that I've been dismissive with the majority of the responses is that in general, they haven't been solid arguments."
That's exactly what I'm talking about. You've just decided that the matter is resolved and the arguments aren't solid and you seem to completely dismiss the notion that people might disagree with you on this. It makes arguing with you pointless and annoying because you just say "no" and then repeat yourself. Whenever anyone has responded to point out that they disagree with your dismissal, that's exactly what you've done: repeated yourself again and asserted that you're right. Why would anyone continue to argue with you? What would be the point if you're just going to repeat the same points again and assert that you're right again? That's why most people are not engaging with you anymore, not because you're so obviously right that you've silenced all opposition.
@Tael I have yet to dismiss a single argument without a detailed response.
If I'm wrong and I missed one, please feel free to link/quote it and I'll (re)explain why it isn't a goo argument.
I'm in any way making a blanket statement or assumption that everyone else is wrong and that I'm right. I'm painstakingly detailing how I am right, and painstakingly explaining how the arguments presented are wrong. There is a difference.
__
Looking back, the only thing I didn't bother responding to was @Terra stating that (paraphrased): "Maybe you just suck too much to win, and that's your problem."
I'll go ahead and make a response:
1) I didn't respond because it was offensive and vague.
2) It doesn't matter how "good" I or anyone is, in the context of class balance discussion. Assuming a "perfect" combatant, they still cannot stop Evade prep. The only way to refute this is an example of a way to actually do so (aside from the few examples I already mentioned that are only available to a small handful of classes), which has yet to occur. If @Terra wants to argue that I'm wrong because there exists a long list of ways to combat the strategy that I'm simply too stupid to know about, then she needs to either explain them, or keep to herself.
Reference: