GMCP

Yue

@Vadi @Mosr

Sweeeet! The OCD part of me is going to lurve this.

Jonathin

See, I knew Vadi thought of everything.

Caladbolg

Vadimuses said:

time, people visible to you in room

I disagree with this because with gmcp picking up people visible in the room it would be a nerf to evading in and out.

Personally Evade is a great tool for setting up annihilation throwing or getting off hypnosis before they notice your there. Assuming they don't have an occultist that has 13 minions auto attack you. Although I suppose sense you already have a script that does this my point is null

Eld

Caladbolg said:

Vadimuses said:

time, people visible to you in room

I disagree with this because with gmcp picking up people visible in the room it would be a nerf to evading in and out.

Personally Evade is a great tool for setting up annihilation throwing or getting off hypnosis before they notice your there. Assuming they don't have an occultist that has 13 minions auto attack you. Although I suppose sense you already have a script that does this my point is null

Again, this wouldn't do anything to counter evade that you can't already do by occasionally LOOKing.

Nemutaur

But it would buy you a few seconds of time, and in combat that's all you really need to pull of a crazy strat.

Jacen

Just don't have that table update on evade events. Have it update on visible people entering/leaving, and look/quick look/who here events.

Dragonknight

How about everything available from the Ship Prompt and Ship Info...

Eld

Jacen said:

Just don't have that table update on evade events. Have it update on visible people entering/leaving, and look/quick look/who here events.

That's what I've been assuming we were talking about, since it's the only sensible option. Hence my response above.

Veldrin

Iphis said:

Iphis said:

- A flag to show which weapon (id) is wielded in which hand.

In lieu of this, also show which piercings you got pieces of jewellery in

Deiren

Personally, mostly for aesthetics sake, I'd love to see hunger and fatigue be added to either Vitals or Status.

P.S. If it's already somewhere in GMCP and I just haven't seen it, Id love to know.

Yue

Veldrin said:

Iphis said:

- A flag to show which weapon (id) is wielded in which hand.

In lieu of this, also show which piercings you got pieces of jewellery in

In lieu of means in place of or in stead of. I'm not sure if that's what you meant just from reading your post.

Weapon (id) wielded in which hand would be incredibly useful though.

Veldrin

Oops I meant something like 'with this brought up also consider this'. Bloody 2nd languages

Yue

Aha. Replace 'lieu' with 'light'

Pro tip: just avoid anything French.

Veldrin

yeah well, that's 3rd language and I'm rubbish at it!

Eld

Would be nice to have shin/kai in Char.Vitals. And any other energies that show on the prompt in the same way.

Vadimuses

Caladbolg said:

Vadimuses said:

time, people visible to you in room

I disagree with this because with gmcp picking up people visible in the room it would be a nerf to evading in and out.

Personally Evade is a great tool for setting up annihilation throwing or getting off hypnosis before they notice your there. Assuming they don't have an occultist that has 13 minions auto attack you. Although I suppose sense you already have a script that does this my point is null

You completely missed the point that it would not go off for evade. Feel free to argue with empty air. It will not bring you any combat advantages.

PS. anyone can already trigger ql to be on a 1s timer with gags and and there we go, a script that nulls your evade in point. What'll you do now? No gmcp is involved.

Tvistor

I would have ten monks repeatedly disrupt them while ten apostates stripped their mindseye, so I could evade in without them noticing me.

But yeah, if it doesn't fire on evade then it's fine. I can't be bothered to scroll up to re-read, but logic dictates it's also not going to reveal people who aren't visible to you (because of hiding or cloak).

Eld

Tvistor said:

I would have ten monks repeatedly disrupt them while ten apostates stripped their mindseye, so I could evade in without them noticing me.

But yeah, if it doesn't fire on evade then it's fine. I can't be bothered to scroll up to re-read, but logic dictates it's also not going to reveal people who aren't visible to you (because of hiding or cloak).

Your logic has no place here.

Iocun

Vadimuses said:

PS. anyone can already trigger ql to be on a 1s timer with gags and and there we go, a script that nulls your evade in point. What'll you do now? No gmcp is involved.

As I said before: the difference is that gmcp makes things like this far more convenient and thus acts as an incentive to do it. And both are things that go distinctly against the "spirit" of evade and are thus highly questionable practices.

Practices that serve to circumvent intended game mechanics (such as evade being "silent") are meta-gamey and should not be facilitated or encouraged, regardless of whether such circumventing could also be done otherwise.

Vadimuses

Highly questionable and metagamey practices are always used by a fraction of the population for an advantage. There is no issue with encouraging them - because that is the only way to get the administration to fix them.

See: removing arties for max health, a practice that went on and was known for years before it was fixed. It was only fixed 2-3 days after I made an update that gave this feature to the most popular public system at the time and publicly detailed it.

Iocun

So... the reason to, say, add a gmcp event for people evading into your room is so people would abuse it so the admins could take it away again?

The thing is: gmcp "abuse" is much more silent than things like spamming QL every second and will thus go much more unnoticed. If people thus do the QL thing, chances are much higher that it will be noticed as metagamey and steps will be taken against it than when people are using silent checks that aren't actually detectable by Achaea.

Eld

Iocun said:

Vadimuses said:

PS. anyone can already trigger ql to be on a 1s timer with gags and and there we go, a script that nulls your evade in point. What'll you do now? No gmcp is involved.

As I said before: the difference is that gmcp makes things like this far more convenient and thus acts as an incentive to do it. And both are things that go distinctly against the "spirit" of evade and are thus highly questionable practices.

Practices that serve to circumvent intended game mechanics (such as evade being "silent") are meta-gamey and should not be facilitated or encouraged, regardless of whether such circumventing could also be done otherwise.

Just to reiterate, I'm pretty sure no one here is advocating a gmcp event for people evading into a room. The suggestion, as I understand it, is to have a gmcp event listing people in the room when you do things that show you people in the room (look, ql, who here, etc), and for when people enter/exit that you would normally see. No event on evade, shrouded people only listed if you have thirdeye up, hidden people only with lifevision/clarity, and so on. So in order to take advantage of it to effectively nullify evade, you would still have to do something like check QL or WHO HERE, you just wouldn't have to parse those lines to get the relevant information.

The question of whether and how much metagaming intended to circumvent game mechanics should be discouraged is worth discussing, but I don't think it's very relevant to this particular suggestion.

Iocun

I was merely responding to that statement of Vadimuses.

Garao

Vadimuses said:

Highly questionable and metagamey practices are always used by a fraction of the population for an advantage. There is no issue with encouraging them - because that is the only way to get the administration to fix them.

See: removing arties for max health, a practice that went on and was known for years before it was fixed. It was only fixed 2-3 days after I made an update that gave this feature to the most popular public system at the time and publicly detailed it.

Yeah, this makes little sense. Arguing for the implementation of a feature that has been established as questionable and metagamey just because the admins can then see these questionable practises and revert them is just redundant. Evade's entire flavour is entering and exiting rooms invisibly, by adding 'WHO HERE' to gmcp it becomes incredibly easy to get around this. However, as hidden people are removed from WHO HERE, -that- argument also becomes somewhat redundant, because it's an easily accessible serpent ability and negates the whole gmcp WHO HERE thing. 

Redundancy everywhere. 

Basically, as long as it doesn't update on evade events and doesn't show hidden people by staying true to how WHO HERE actually functions, should be fine. Right?

Vadimuses

My argument wasn't in response to GMCP nor the script, but the fact that metagamey practices should not be brought to light as Iocun said.

They should be, so everybody knows of them - that is the only way things get fixed.

Garao said:

Basically, as long as it doesn't update on evade events and doesn't show hidden people by staying true to how WHO HERE actually functions, should be fine. Right?

Yeah.

Jacen

This goes with the discussion in the svo thread about using gmcp to detect herb eating illusions, but when one or a few people have "great AI" or "man, it seems like he's always ready for my evade", these people are regarded as very intelligent, high tier combatants. Make that same functionality public, and then its considered abuse. If the admin would consider such practices abuse, then its much easier to detect when what, 50% or so of Achaeans are doing it, than when 1 or 2 or 5 combatants are doing it.

Edit: My spelling

Nizaris

Regarding the who here GMCP work-a-like:

@Isaiah and I were earlier working on a little widget to display and enable MXP targeting of people in a Mudlet label. We ended up scrapping it, because checking WHO HERE on a trigger every time someone entered/left the room is a bad idea in aeon/retardation. While a relatively minor repercussion, this idea would have the effect of enabling checking this in aeon/retardation without penalty, where previously that was impossible.

Again, probably relatively minor. But, meh.

As for @Vadimuses's comments, I agree with him that documenting issues is a good way to get things changed. It also enables others to play on an equal footing. Thanks to his efforts, affliction classes have gotten a much needed buff recently.

Eld

Nizaris said:

Regarding the who here GMCP work-a-like:

@Isaiah and I were earlier working on a little widget to display and enable MXP targeting of people in a Mudlet label. We ended up scrapping it, because checking WHO HERE on a trigger every time someone entered/left the room is a bad idea in aeon/retardation. While a relatively minor repercussion, this idea would have the effect of enabling checking this in aeon/retardation without penalty, where previously that was impossible.

Again, probably relatively minor. But, meh.

I'm starting to feel like a broken record, but as I understand the suggestion, no, it wouldn't. You would only get the relevant GMCP event on LOOK/QL/WHO HERE, so you would still have to wait for aeon/retard, not get it if you tried to do it while stunned or with amnesia, still be seen checking it via mind sapience, etc.

Veldrin

It would assumably just be like the gmcp event for removing/adding items on your inventory, except it'd be on people leaving or entering the room in a way you can visible discern, if you can't see the person entering the event for it won't fire and doing QL/WHO HERE/LOOK would simply send the entire table

Nizaris

Veldrin said:

It would assumably just be like the gmcp event for removing/adding items on your inventory, except it'd be on people leaving or entering the room in a way you can visible discern, if you can't see the person entering the event for it won't fire and doing QL/WHO HERE/LOOK would simply send the entire table

@Eld: @Veldrin's statement was my assumption of the functionality.