IC/OOC Separation

Aerek

Do people still use forums?

Something I've thought about lately is IC/OOC separation in roleplaying, and how the Achaean approach to it seems different than other mediums I enjoy. In Achaea, it's my anecdotal experience that when someone references "IC/OOC separation" it's almost always shorthand for "Don't use knowledge in-game if you didn't learn it in-game." and "Don't take things personally." This is important and good in a game where politics, fog of war, and complex interpersonal relationships are part and parcel to the experience. But I feel that this stops short of what IC/OOC separation is and means in other formats, which is essentially, "Is everyone having fun?"

I was playing Achaea before I ever dabbled in other mediums like Dungeons & Dragons, or even forum roleplay storytelling. As I dabbled in those other mediums, I quickly learned more rules that Achaea didn't really impart to me. Like don't troll the Dungeon Master who's trying to craft a fun experience for you. (My empathy and personal apologies to Achaean Gods) Or being courteous to other players at the table, so that everyone gets a turn to tell their story. Or if you're doing a forum roleplay thread, take what elements other people write and roll with them instead of trying to impose "how it should be" on the whole thread. Basically all etiquette shown to fellow players when you're roleplaying with a small group, but that same etiquette applies to our IC actions, as well. If Bob the Paladin and Steve the Necromancer are both in the same D&D party, that's a weird party dynamic because these two characters are arguably polar opposites and want opposite things. But OOC, both Bob and Steve want to play D&D, so they have to govern their IC actions to make it work. If Steve insists on raising zombies in full view of Bob, it may force a showdown that splits the group or results in a character's death. This might be very believable IC roleplay, but it's bad IC/OOC separation, because (unless Bob and Steve agreed to this climactic moment) that clash ruins the session for Bob or Steve if one of them has to give up their character, but also for everyone else at the table who has to deal with this drama instead of exploring whatever adventure they were on.

And so IC/OOC separation isn't just separating your IC persona from your RL persona, it's also guiding your IC actions with your OOC awareness of the other players at your table. "This is what my character would do as I imagine them, but as a player, I recognize that wouldn't be fun for other people, so I'll do it a little differently." Perhaps Steve engineers his character's undead-raising to be out of sight, so there develops an amusing cat-and-mouse relationship with Bob. Bob immediately destroys any of Steve's zombies he sees, but engineers his character to not go looking for Steve during his mysterious absences. This is good IC/OOC separation, because both characters are being true to their roleplay, but both are doing so with respect to the other player at the table. We often have to compromise a little to make the experience a fun one. In Achaea, we're all eager to show off our own RP and tell our own stories, (through dialogue, combat, or politics, what have you) but we should always spare a thought for other players (especially our enemies!) to make sure we're roleplaying in a way that allows them to have some fun with it as well. (Most of all, we should avoid vicious cycles)

It's fair to say that the rules that govern a small group around a small table don't always apply to a MUD with hundreds or thousands of players, where our "table" is largely our faction and some players are supposed to be in direct competition with us. But as a result, a lot of Achaean roleplay takes a scorched earth approach, people roleplaying at each other instead of with each other, because we aren't particularly concerned with the other person's enjoyment. As Achaea shrinks, as our game-wide table gets small enough that we recognize most of the faces who sit at it, I think the IC/OOC separation that governs a D&D group has and will increasingly apply to us, and we can easily affect the tone and atmosphere at that table. I'm definitely not saying that we have to come at this game with kid gloves on, I can appreciate a good dunk on someone who deserves it. But I think our Achaean definition of IC/OOC separation should expand from simply "Keep IC IC and OOC OOC" to encompass more of the sportsmanlike aspects of roleplaying in other mediums.

Of course, the reason I've been thinking about this is because I've been using the Guild of Knights as an avenue to encourage this concept. Much like Dauntless is a player-opted "tag" for "I'm down to fight at any time and I won't issue/hire for it," I'd like to see "Knight" become a tag for "I'm down to roleplay with my enemies, and I want them to have a good experience while doing it." But you don't have to wear a pretentious title to be a good sport and be on the lookout for ways to moderate our IC actions to create a better OOC experience, and perhaps it will help to know that there's a group of players out there trying to do just that.

Kzir

Sadly, no one uses forums anymore, and it seems to be abandoned by the administration and players. Everyone uses Discord, which is great for real-time current chat but terrible for threaded discussions.

I'm not the best person to have an opinion on it, but I agree with much of what you said. Folks RP at others, instead of RPing the characters themselves... and with it being a PvP game, many choices are made purely on mechanical reasons and admins keep trying to make folks care about combat, where I'm not sure RP even enters at all outside of "duh, that's why we fight". 

If you want to RP all the time, you need to find a place to do it more with people that also enjoy it. Where that is, is completely unrelated to being a "side" on the PvP stuff, I have no idea.

But to be fair, they do say clearly it is a PvP game, so difficult to not get lost in the details of stats and numbers, and all manner of exploiting techniques and tricks against others. 

A school of bakers? A meetup group that paints at different areas of the world at regular intervals? An open ball with custom-tailored clothing made exclusively for this one in an X event with different entertainment groups/solos? Seems totally wild to think of it being around, but that should exist in an RP environment. The only trick is getting the ball rolling and people tend to jump aboard. It's that upfront work that is a pain.

[Disclaimer: I'm dissatisfied in my own personal enjoyment of the game, which I confess is 99% my fault. So, my opinions are biased at this point in time.]

Kzir

Note: I retired this character, and I think these forums and the Discord server were toxic for my gameplay. Any new character(s) will avoid both. I wish the administration would simply delete both. Feedback loop is way way way way more on Discord than in-game, and folks give out a ton of info in Discord that shouldn't be given out, even if folks say "find out in game" (FOIG) all the time. Perhaps there are robots out there that can perfectly separate OOC and IG stuff, but I don't see how that is truly possible in reality.

...but hey, I've spent a lot and will continue to be a customer; just changing the inputs only to be IG and my imagination. Just stinks when it feels like Discord cliques and friendships exist out of the game there in a big way. Are folks at a disadvantage without Discord access? I think they are, especially for combat and understanding world events and game changes. 

They never should have created and pushed Discord and should have made forums read-only, for an old historical record, if anything. Forums serve no purpose anymore and the content is dated and not relevant anymore. 

For an RP game, they do a lot to take away from it...

Aerek

Kzir said:

I'm not the best person to have an opinion on it, but I agree with much of what you said. Folks RP at others, instead of RPing the characters themselves... and with it being a PvP game, many choices are made purely on mechanical reasons and admins keep trying to make folks care about combat, where I'm not sure RP even enters at all outside of "duh, that's why we fight". 

If you want to RP all the time, you need to find a place to do it more with people that also enjoy it. Where that is, is completely unrelated to being a "side" on the PvP stuff, I have no idea.

PvP can be and is part of a balanced roleplay, and it's a prime example of when we should exercise some OOC restraint over our IC actions. While one city might truly want to wipe its rivals off the face of the map, we as players can't and shouldn't want to, so we should often find ways to let our enemies lose with some grace, or engineer a reason that curb-stomping our opponents isn't necessary or desirable. Naturally that's a big part of Knighthood, IC: fair fights, honor, all that jazz, it's all to try and ensure that both players are having some fun in a fight, or that we give them some positive interaction even if they lose.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you take the gloves off when the chips are on the table or you need to make a point, but bad blood begets bad blood, and making the occasional sacrifice to break a vicious cycle is a big part of roleplay in my eyes.

Kresslack

Aerek said:

Kzir said:

I'm not the best person to have an opinion on it, but I agree with much of what you said. Folks RP at others, instead of RPing the characters themselves... and with it being a PvP game, many choices are made purely on mechanical reasons and admins keep trying to make folks care about combat, where I'm not sure RP even enters at all outside of "duh, that's why we fight". 

If you want to RP all the time, you need to find a place to do it more with people that also enjoy it. Where that is, is completely unrelated to being a "side" on the PvP stuff, I have no idea.

PvP can be and is part of a balanced roleplay, and it's a prime example of when we should exercise some OOC restraint over our IC actions. While one city might truly want to wipe its rivals off the face of the map, we as players can't and shouldn't want to, so we should often find ways to let our enemies lose with some grace, or engineer a reason that curb-stomping our opponents isn't necessary or desirable. Naturally that's a big part of Knighthood, IC: fair fights, honor, all that jazz, it's all to try and ensure that both players are having some fun in a fight, or that we give them some positive interaction even if they lose.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you take the gloves off when the chips are on the table or you need to make a point, but bad blood begets bad blood, and making the occasional sacrifice to break a vicious cycle is a big part of roleplay in my eyes.

This is a common theme in other RP environments as well, such as FiveM (GTA V online roleplay). It's important for people to understand that Conflict RP is often very necessary (and fun) for stories to be introduced and explored. In the same nature, it's important for people to remember that at the end of the day, none of this should be taking so seriously on an OOC level, and on an IC level actions and even words should be self-moderated with the intent of helping to drive RP. If your faction gets into conflict with another faction, and your character is this grizzlied, tempermental soldier who scoffs and scowls, that shouldn't be a mask your OOC player adapts in turn. Win or lose in any fight IC, there shouldn't be any reason anyone can't shrug that off or even laugh about it OOC. We play stuff like this to have fun, and nothing takes the fun out of something more than people who take it too seriously and can't separate IC from OOC.

Jolyon