Shops need more protection and why.

Shalohan

Shopkeeping is something a select few people do. Most know it takes ages to harvest, gather, extract, hunt down reagents, and know that its highly time-consuming and expensive to run player shops in Achaea.

I tried to idea this in-game, and the Admin were not accepting of it. So I figured to come here and get more people to voice their opinions since they were not given the chance via the Idea mechanic in-game since they deleted the idea within 30 seconds of submission.

1. Shops should be protected like ships and houses. This means door perms, no physical keys.
2. Shopkeepers should be allowed to, for a cost, much like houses, to prismproof stockrooms.
3. Shops are protected like this in literally every other IRE game, or with means to prevent theft entirely, be it with shop permissions, shelves ect.
4. Items stolen during a shop robbery are not added to stolen items, as they are not pickpocketed, there is no way for a shopkeeper to recover those items at all, which is unfair.-- perhaps there can be a way to make them actually go to the fence if picked up within a short time?

Theft needs to be handled better. As is it right now, the fencing mechanic doesn't even work.

Stolen items are not put up on the fence, at all which allows for abuse from people like Profit who are knowingly abusing this bug to make massive gains by stealing keys, which should, per HELP FENCE, when stolen (pickpocketed) be instantly put up on the fence for 50 in-game days, currently, they don't go to the fence and they get to use those keys to ruin, hours and hours of someone else's work. So this is not just an issue with theft, but the admin failing to make sure that the 'security' factors they added in are actually functioning because they are not.

Protecting those that harass non-coms, but stealing their enjoyment of the game is what is happening. How many people have stopped playing because of theft? How many people have stopped doing anything in the game that generates gold or other possessions that a person like Profit would attempt to steal? Theft is killing the moral and fun of Achaea. You can keep theft, just make it so it only works on NCPs. Adventurers shouldn't have to worry about loosing all their hardwork in 6 seconds when they did nothing wrong to deserve it. The only time an adventurer should have to worry about losses if they are breaking the rules and TOS.

Thaisen

This can all be easily avoided by not logging in. :/

Saonji

It doesn't reeeeeeally take that long. I mean if you use Mudlet, I literally made a script for free that simplifies the majority of the work. I got into shopkeeping this week, with absolutely zero prior experience (in Achaea at least), and already have things setup pretty well (I think) and making pretty good profits.

Not trying to be dismissive, but I'm gonna address your points pretty directly.

1. Shops don't need the same protections, if you take the right precautions to defend your stuff. Don't afk in stokrooms, keep your keys stored in a container of some sort, and make use of the separator to enter/exit your shop. I can give an example of how to do this, if necessary. If your key gets stolen somehow out in the open, just change the locks. It's cheap compared to whatever you'll lose.
2. I don't think so. Literally if you're not afk in your stockroom, and have followed shop security protocol, your shop should never get broken into. It's an annoying thing, sure, but it's nothing overly debilitating. Especially if you just have aliases setup to enter / drop + price items / leave. Might be a little more annoying on phone or nexus or whatever, but still doable.
3. I promise you shops can be broken into on every other IRE games, as someone who did it frequently. Maybe not Starmourn? I quit before player-run shops were a thing there.
4. Maybe, I suppose. Would likely require quite a bit of work to change how stockroom items are managed, for this to be feasible to do. And it'd pretty massively clog up the fence, given how many items a "well stocked" shop often has.

I wouldn't say Profit's abusing a bug. An oversight, certainly, with the changes to Theft recently... But not a bug. I don't like him very much, but accusing people of bug abuse is a pretty hefty accusation.

I don't know that "protecting non coms" is a valid argument here, if I'm going to be completely honest. Shop security should be learned before even taking up shopkeeping. You're playing a game where conflict of all types is literally the entire selling point of the game, wanting to be 100% perfectly safe from an aspect of it, completely goes against the nature of the game. Shopkeeping could definitely be made better and more intuitive in some aspects, but I think shop theft is mostly fine as is. It is 100% entirely preventable on the "victim"'s side, if they're actually paying attention. Outside of, I guess, the very rare situation where you DC in a stockroom and don't timeout.

Getting stolen from sucks, but it's far from the end of the world. Definitely should be a learning experience. Every shopkeeper has been (or will be) stolen from/cleaned at least once in their career. But it's arguably even more avoidable than normal theft.

Phaestus

Not going to comment either way on the shop/theft changes or whether theft as it is now is a good system, as that's not really my area, but just a few general things to note if you're hoping to see changes made here:

First: There was no bug abuse here. Take issue with the mechanics if you like, but there's no need to sling mud at other players publicly. In future, if you do suspect someone of abusing bugs, the proper recourse is to issue them directly. As for the fence bypass, fencing only applies to targetted pickpocketing. Items that are otherwise normally pickpocketable, such as keys, letters, gold, sigils, etc, go directly to the thief via standard untargetted pickpocket. This is working as intended for the system at present.

Second: "The only time an adventurer should have to worry about losses if they are breaking the rules and TOS." This stance flies in the face of practically every large-scale system in Achaea, and is a very very unhealthy attitude for a multiplayer game to adopt, especially one with as much in-world volatility, consequence, and opportunity for long-term impact as Achaea has. That's not to discount the idea entirely, just to say that this line of reasoning isn't going to be the argument that gets these (or any) changes implemented. If you have other reasons or arguments in favour, those are probably better options to explore.

Again, not commenting on the ideas themselves one way or another, just clarifying a few points.

Shalohan

1. He targeted the key as he pickpocketed on his first attempted after forcing it out of my pack, therefore it was a targetted pickpocket, which should have sent it to the FENCE and it didn't. There is not way, with all the junk in my inventory that he just did pickpocket and just happened to get the key. So, this is an abuse of the system.
2. My reference to losses is things I spent hours and hours to get. If I am hunting and attacking a beast, and die, I knowingly went into a conflict and lost. But if I am not doing that, I should not suffer a loss, at all. I am not against losses when you do things to -deserve- them, such as, spouting off at someone, hunting, engaging in raids, engaging in pk events.

Shalohan

@Saonji I disagree. I have shop kept in literally every game except Starmourn as I don't play it.

1. Imperian, you can only pick up things on the floor of the stockroom, but if they are placed on the shelves, they are protected as only those that are under shopallies can put and take things off of the shelves.
2. Lusternia had door perms, no keys and honestly was the same way, only allies could take or place from the stockrooms, given their fuctions.
3. Aetolia, has less protections, but no theft mechanics and stealing from shop owners is heavily punished by the players.

I have shops in all of these games, except Lusternia as I no longer play there. In Imperian its impossible to steal from a shop unless they leave stuff on the stockroom floor which no one does because unlimited shelves to safely keep those wares protected. Aetolia has a cache system for plants, pills ect, that allows you to protect them from theft. Achaea could use some of those ideas to make shopkeeping better.

I don't linger in my shop's stockroom. I have triggers for pricing items so its not that. Its the fact that if they steal a key, in a targetted pickpocket, it should go to the fence. Profit looted a massive amount of stuff from my shop, from Smashy's shop by using this workaround of not having the items go to the fences.

Saonji

1. You'd be surprised. Trust me. The core difference with Imperian lies in the fact you need a PK reason in order to steal from someone under their rules. Compared to Achaea where you can steal from anyone, anytime you like.
2. You can get into Lusternia shops in basically all the same ways you can get into Achaea ones. Including simply following them in while hidden.
3. Correct. Except people who RP thieves don't care about those "punishments" the exact same way they don't care about them here. There's multiple people in Aetolia who'll readily take the chance to rob someone's shop if they're being not very mindful.

Between Lusternia/Aetolia/Achaea, the only real difference between Achaea and the other two, is that people in the other two view theft as shitty and morally don't partake in it. Otherwise it's just as easy to clean shops out using the old-fashioned methods; just because you're not using a key, doesn't mean it's not as easy.

As for the key theft, I am unsure as to if you understand how theft works. Sorry that there's no way to really say that without sounding like a snarky asshole, but it's the impression. Maybe you don't linger in your stockroom, but it's clear you're still not really taking any of the myriad anti-theft precautions outside of it. Because nothing that was done as you described, is really "abuse" of any sort.

Shalohan

@Phaestus

Also HELP FENCE says anything that was stolen goes to the fence, not just targetted items. HELP THEFT doesn't discern between targetted or not either. So, my point still stands that theft and fence policies need better documentation, otherwise, this is a bug with the given documentation provided for players to use and understand the rules regarding both. Thanks for your insight though.

Iaxus

I like how every time Profit does exactly what Profit is known for, there's a new forum thread created about it. Keep up the good work @Profit

Ilsefi

After having read HELP FENCE, I am completely confused as to why the key didn't go to the fence immediately? I agree that if it's 'intended to work that way', the help file will need to be rewritten and have its language adjusted.

Profit

Edit: Might was well keep my secrets.

Kshavatra

There is not way, with all the junk in my inventory that he just did pickpocket and just happened to get the key. So, this is an abuse of the system.

Not sure I follow this logic

Shalohan

Welp this post is pointless. Admin wants to defend Profit's actions, refuse to look into things, fix fence issues or even communicate in full thoughts to handle the situation.

So glad I stopped spending money on IRE over a year ago, save one purchase a month and a half ago.

I guess everyone is of the mind that allowing others to mistreat and abuse other players and their characters is 100% legal.

@profit good job buddy at making the game toxic and unfun. Kuddos for your efforts. I think I am done after years of playing.

Tahquil

Letters, sigils and shit not going to fence I understand. Buy things that potentially ruin hours or days of work should so people can try to get their items back... as the fence system was supposed to address.

--------

"Sorry kid, thief closed his eyes and rifled your purse and won the lottery. -shrug- Hopefully next time they'll put in a bunch of effort so they can potentially lose the item they have been casing for days to you or some other random jackass with gold."

Wut?

Phaestus

After having read HELP FENCE, I am completely confused as to why the key didn't go to the fence immediately? I agree that if it's 'intended to work that way', the help file will need to be rewritten and have its language adjusted.

To clarify a bit, untargetted pickpocket can't hit just anything. They're items specifically marked as pickpocketable, including gold, letters, sigils, keys, and other things that, when stolen, will go directly to the thief. Some of these are just for simplicity's sake, like gold and sigils. Letters for RP and reconnaissance reasons.

Keys are on this list because a key going to a fence would be entirely pointless. A key would sit at a fence for days on end while the shopkeeper, organization leader, or other owner would just wander to their local locksmith and replace the lock in question. Why even have keys at that point, if the only way to obtain unauthorised access to a key requires announcing to not only the victim but their entire organization, or the entire city that you're hoping to trespass into a stockroom of, that the key is up for grabs and needs replacing?

I'll make sure someone adds a note to either HELP THEFT or HELP FENCE shortly to clarify, but fencing keys definitely isn't the answer here.

Tahquil

"As for the fence bypass, fencing only applies to targetted pickpocketing. Items that are otherwise normally pickpocketable, such as keys, letters, gold, sigils, etc, go directly to the thief via standard untargetted pickpocket."

"... untargetted pickpocket can't hit just anything. They're items specifically marked as pickpocketable, including gold, letters, sigils, keys, and other things that, when stolen, will go directly to the fence."

I'm guessing you didn't mean fence in the second quote. @Phaestus

Phaestus

Meant directly to the thief, yes, my mistake.

Veldrin

A keyring would have prevented key theft and is easily earnable by 5 days of full renown?

It was like the first thing I got when I got my shop (and bound credits wasn't even a thing back then!)

Atalkez

I stated this in the uproar over the last thief thread. Shop theft losses are wholly unmitigated, and the slightest mistake is punished far beyond what anything else in the game can achieve.

Shalohan

@Atalkez yes you understand. Where others that get stolen from ther personal property might lose maybe 50,000 gold and its easily replaced, the theft of a shops entire stock, sold to someone else (Lyndee got my stuff for 145 credits)

Ilsefi

"(Lyndee got my stuff for 145 credits)"

Wait, what? I *specifically* made sure to ask her if that was your shop stock and she said no, she'd been gathering for months.

Also, I completely agree with Veldrin above. A keyring is a must for shop owners.

Shalohan

Pretty bad when he eagerly brags about it, and rats her out. See if people would stop buying stolen goods and items they would eventually just stop because we held a higher morale highground and protected other adventurers. But the fact she wants to lie... its funny.

@Lyndee you 100% did not gather for months, you bought the stuff that Profit stole from Shalohan and Smashy's shops so you are just as shitty of a person as he is for stealing it. You bought it KNOWING it was stolen items.

Atalkez

She has been gathering for months and the entire stuff that she bought did not all come from this one time theft. There’s no chance.

Shalohan

LOL do you even know how much stuff was in my shop? How much was in Smashy's Who are both known to gather constantly? Like its literally the only thing do. Dream on, people witnessed her accepting the goods from Profit, multiple people.

Atalkez

No, I don't know how much stuff was in your shop. Unless you kept literally everything you've ever gathered, and Smashy has, on the floor - the amount of stuff that she got seems far too high for one theft. I could be wrong, granted, but I was there and saw every bit of what she bought first hand. I agree there are some issues with the system that's in place, but calling them shitty people for playing the game the way it operates is nonsense.

Lyndee

Whoa there. This isn't true. I did pay, but I absolutely did not pay 145 credits. I had no idea the source or even what you stock in your shop. I needed some curatives in preparation for the CTF which he had. Those are not for sale in the cart.

I have absolutely been gathering for IC years with the intent to open a cart for reagents or ingredients. Ask the buffalo, sharks, and rivers of the world, as I've been ruthless. My shops have been robbed before by Ashtani and Hashani who have then bragged on market and refused to give anything back to me, sold House items, etc. I understand you're upset; but you are not the first and certainly not the last. I'll ask politely for you to stop the slander and keep this constructive.

On topic, I do appreciate how difficult shopkeeping is and think some protections would be helpful, especially for riftable items. Something similar to tuns, even (barrels? bulk bins?) that can't be picked up or have to be emptied in a way that requires more than just a balance-less GETALL alias would be another idea.

The challenges of shopkeeping security is actually part of why I put things of higher value in carts, they are more secure and inventory management is easier. And you absolutely need a keyring if you are going to keep a shop, which sucks as a threshold item but is vital. The grievous ones are typically more affordable if you can keep an eye out.

Ilsefi

I mean, I totally agree with the idea for needing protections. There's a housing upgrade that gives you all the protections in one upgrade (for one room, iirc) and if there's a shop upgrade or something that does that, I bet every single shopkeeper would opt for it.

Shalohan

@Lyndee if you think I would believe that you had 'no clue' where the goods came from, whilst buying them from a thief who literally BRAGGED on Market about the theft... just before he sold them to you...you are insane. You knew where they came from, you knew they were stolen goods. You still accepted them. You are are just as guilty of the crime as he is, as you fund it.

Archaeon

at least it's consistent RP

Nicola

When it devolves to personal attacks it's no longer constructive.