Broadsword vs Longsword (SnB)

Shecks

Wanted to find out if there are use cases for Broadsword. The answer is... sortof.

These are not exact - I just did 3-4 attacks on each (using targeted combination with Smash), and Nimble.

L0 longsword: 3.5s Rend, 2.05s Slice

L3 longsword: 3.15s Rend, 1.9s Slice

L0 broadsword: 4.1s Rend, 2.15s Slice

L3 broadsword: ~3.8s Rend, ~2.05s Slice (extrapolated from results of L2 broadsword testing).

So interestingly, Broadsword Rend is almost entirely pointless, there is no use case at all for ever using this targeting a limb (explained below), and if you want raw damage using untargeted Rend, you're better off using other attacks like Purity/Arc etc. For sure though, untargeted Rend/Smash combo with 24str (no favors/consumables) with Sensi is doing around 50% damage with Sensi, and could be higher with Runeblade procs. This would really be good for a single finishing blow as the balance on it is enormous. You could do far more damage by just doing two slice combos in the same amount of time, so again, only use case is as a single, final hit to kill someone who otherwise wouldn't die. (use with caution though, as there are a few classes who can kill you off of a 4s balance attack, if you're prepped).

What really shocked me is that Slice combo time using L2/L3 weapons is basically the same between longsword and broadsword, while doing dramatically higher amount of hp and limb damage. Maybe its hitting a cap or maybe the speed formula just works out like this, dunno.

So if you're rocking L3 weapons, you would basically use Broadsword Slice as your basic attack. With non-artie or level 1 arties, it's still better, but with a more noticeable different in speed - but still enough to stay ahead of curing momentum.

So, conclusion is that buying / using Broadsword is definitely not pointless - but in order to do this you must be able to track limb damage reliably using all of your different limb damages (rend / slice / longsword / broadsword). People using "hit counters" would not be able to track limb damage accurately at all.

On to another point:

Any attack on SnB that has a balance over 2.3s or so is basically unable to maintain aff momentum, which means you'll be bleeding affliction count any time you use it. This basically means any use of limb-targeted Rend. And if you're willing to do this, then you may as well be using a warhammer or a handaxe to prep instead of using SnB attacks. IMO this makes limb-targeted Rend pointless (as far as I can tell!), making it really only useful for untargeted high-damage combos.

My logic is this: If I'm willing to use a 3.15s Rend that gives 2 affs, I'd much rather just do two 1.65s handaxe throws that give 2 affs in the same amount of time, which will do DRAMATICALLY more limb damage than any Rend could dream of doing, while also ignoring rebounding and guarding. In this comparison handaxe is basically better in every way than Rend except for how much hp damage it deals, which is really not important during prep phase of combat (which is most of combat). Will note that handaxe won't stack ferocity but

I also find that prepping as knight with Handaxe with Asp on it is awesome (the only weapon that really makes sense for Asp IMO), because with enough loki procs you will eventually force a diagnose which is its own form of hindrance, sortof.

Most blunt weapons are also superior to Rend, with obvious candidates being warhammer (preps dragons in roughly half the time as rend) but won't be giving any venoms and doesn't ignore rebounding like handaxes.

Unsurprisingly, Arc appears to ignore weapon type for both damage and speed, but I think scales with strength. I haven't played with this much though.

tl;dr

Broadsword is good but only for Slice, but only with L2/L3 artefact broadsword

Rend is pretty much never the right attack for prepping

Rend can be good for single-hit untargeted sensi damage spike but not as good as purity/arc on Paladin

handaxe is better than basically every Knight ability you have when it comes to prepping, except when you're starting a kill sequence and need to stack affs and build ferocity.

If you don't have tons of credits to spend on niche weapons, you're far better off just getting a L1 or L2 longsword and using forged handaxe than buying a broadsword. If you're Runie, you might consider using a forged broadsword for finisher combo, but for Paladin just use longsword Purity/Arc which is almost always better.

I'm not a knight expert, it's been literally years - just going by the numbers. Very open to criticism on the above as there are probably things I haven't considered, especially on Infernal as the last time I played it was pre-rework.

Archaeon

slice is better, bar none, because of aff pressure.

Shecks

I do think Rend balance times could/should be reduced though, and/or Broadsword should be looked at a bit. It really shouldn't be so obvious that Longsword Slice is always better, and for sure I think Rend should at least be comparable to Handaxe in time to prep otherwise I'm going to continue going around as a Knight prepping with handaxes as it's literally 3 times faster. I can just use SnB attacks for kill executions or to spam clumsi/para on people I need to keep hindered.

Maybe that's more of a statement of how broken handaxe is than anything, but as long as it remains how it is, it's pretty much superior in every way other than aff pressure, which is frankly optional during prepping into most classes (considering that you have Rage, Dedication, Fitness, and passive healing).

I'd say just do something like make Rend always 0.3s slower than Slice while giving 150% limb damage, 125% hp damage. Can fiddle with those numbers but it shouldn't be like, 4 seconds - that's just pointless.

(again though, that opinion is based only on my experience over the last few weeks, there could be mechanics I'm not considering)

Big Papa Jomi

Why is aff pressure optional? Focuslocks screw everyone

Shecks

I mean that's one route, it's not the only route. In my case the vast majority of my fights are chasing people who are running, so trying to build a focus lock while chasing people or spamming Raze isn't all that realistic - while prepping their limbs with ultra fast with handaxe / engage definitely is.

For comparison:

handaxe hits against an artied dragon 6 hits x 1.6s (roughly 10 seconds to prep each limb) while doing 1 aff every 1.7 seconds, and ignoring rebounding

vs

slice combinations against an artied dragon: 19 hits to prep, x 2.1s each (40 seconds per limb) + a bunch of extra time for razing against a defensive opponent - while doing 2 affs every 2.1 seconds (also much lower if you need to raze).

Against someone who's running, turtling, or hindering you back, that aff pressure is pretty meaningless as they're going to slow it down dramatically to the point where there's no way you're going to be stacking on them, so may as well go with handaxe as it's 4x faster and you don't have to raze constantly either.

Also in a fight where nobody is running or turtling, I'd still rather be doing 10s of relatively ignorable aff pressure (noting again that I put Asp on my handaxe so occasionally they'll need to diagnose) than be doing very mild aff pressure for 40-50 seconds with Combinations. 40s is a really long time to be doing anything against most classes these days, especially if you need to do it 3 or 4 times for a triple/quad-break. For instance, a Knight prepping with Combination could quad-prep you while their opponent knight preps a single leg using combination. If they get a bunch of affs on you, just shield. Simple. (insert snotty comment about how nobody is ever going to fix shield spam slow prep so may as well abuse it)

Oh and as a note I'm using Level 3 Longsword compared to Level 2 handaxe, and handaxe is still 4x faster.

Archaeon

yeah that's not the case at all, it's all well and good to think about things but in reality it's just not how things work out. combo slice/shield is the way to go, 100% of the time.

Saonji

I'd love to have someone try to prep against Bard with axes, while not being a Sentinel or a Dragon.

Enjoy being quad prepped faster than you even get 1 leg prepped, because you have absolutely zero affliction pressure or parry bypass.

Archaeon

I think this is the result of theorycraftying taken to an extreme

Shecks

@Saonji you're right I'm definitely not ignoring the element of hindrance where needed, and there are definitely occasions (would narrow down more by individual player than class personally) where that'd get you killed quickly, but I'd say against most people you can definitely get away with it easily against some classes or against people who aren't on point with their affliction game. Let's not forget there is no rule that you ONLY use handaxe. I'd probably use it whenever I'm not under pressure and switch to para/clumsi combo or whatever the situation calls for on an as-needed basis.

When I made Manda back in the day it was purely to allow this sort of play which isn't really possible using a "hit counter" style limb tracking system. But for this to work, you need 99%-ish formulas for actual limb damage which I'd say is already done in this case, I'm just pushing for "perfection" now (in other thread).

For example in knight vs knight I'd make short work of any knight trying to prep me with Combination as I can quad prep them before they prep a single limb, especially since I can ignore rebounding and they can't - and call me callous all you like but no knight is going to scare me with aff pressure.

Also I'm Paladin so I don't really care about static prio / parry bypass. There is no static parry that stops a Paladin from killing you, you will always have 3 of 4 killpaths open against static prio. Can always axe everything EXCEPT the static parry anyways.

Archaeon

I'll take you up on that offer.

Shecks

Or maybe you could respect Ignore. Just a thought.

Saonji

I'm sure @Mizik would as well, or @Proficy.

eta: Or @Dunn, pretty sure he still has knight.

eta2: Ignore doesn't extent to forums by the way.

Archaeon

Involvement of the Forums

--------------------------

It should be noted that the ignore function does not translate to the Achaean

Forums. If, however, a person seeks to abuse this then they may potentially

face consequences within the game itself.

here u go big boy

Shecks

Not asking admin to enforce it I'm asking a person to respect it.

In regards to good knights that's why I said it comes down to player more than class. For sure it's true that against top fighters this would be a pretty big risk to try but it's just a tool in the toolkit. A very strong one. The ability to prep someone with 6k health in 6 seconds is no joke. Nobody is going to kill me in six seconds.

Also don't overlook that it's Asp handaxe. With good RNG you're looking at 3-4 loki every 10s or so and at some point everyone really wants to Diagnose, which is effectively a 1.5s stun, eventually (in the context of hindering opponent offence). Loki kinda sucks these days but a loki clumsi or nausea etc. can really mess up your day.

Mizik

Put up data for lv2 longsword vs lv3 longsword - see what 800cr get you.

Eryl

You're asking one of the more well known SnB paladins to not comment on SnB paladin theorycrafting because of an ignore feature that doesn't translate to the forums. Think about that. Think about it really, really hard.

"For example in knight vs knight I'd make short work of any knight trying to prep me with Combination as I can quad prep them before they prep a single limb, especially since I can ignore rebounding and they can't - and call me callous all you like but no knight is going to scare me with aff pressure."

What fucking world do you live on dude, and what knights are you fighting that are THAT unskilled?

Shecks

@Mizik I didn't upgrade it yet but pretty sure I could nail the chart for it with around 99% accuracy based on the other 5 data sets I gathered. I'll probably upgrade it later but won't need the data by then.

L3 broad Slice combination is probably hidden meta as it preps around 175% faster with only an extra 0.2s balance and also more DPS. Wouldn't use it in kill executions but for prep work it seems very worth.

Archaeon

plz add disclaimer to shecks threads

Saonji

Diagnose is 0.7s, not 1.5.

Also I know this is going to sound flaming, or instigating, or whatever other word you wanna pin on it ... But I'm really curious as to where you're coming up with these things. The last time you killed someone was two weeks ago, and it was your own citymate so I'm guessing you're going off of arena tests where nobody's hitting you back or something.

When you're making grand arguments like these, you should really be providing realistic logs to back up your claims. I mean this in the nicest way possible, if you're wanting to actually have constructive conversation about things.

For example:

Also in a fight where nobody is running or turtling, I'd still rather be doing 10s of relatively ignorable aff pressure (noting again that I put Asp on my handaxe so occasionally they'll need to diagnose) than be doing very mild aff pressure for 40-50 seconds with Combinations. 40s is a really long time to be doing anything against most classes these days, especially if you need to do it 3 or 4 times for a triple/quad-break.

If you've ever fought Mizik in SnB, you'd know that 'very mild aff pressure' is so absurdly wrong. He's pushing focus locks roughly every 10-15 seconds, against competent people who're fighting back. This isn't 'very mild' - this is 'you're going to die soon' territory, all while prepping you along the way.

Shecks

So anyways.

I'm a little disappointed that Purity/Arc does more damage than L3 Broadsword Untargeted Rend / Untargeted Smash (highest damage combination afaik), especially as it respects rebounding and is a much slower attack. Really feels like my 3.5s balance haymaker should do more than my 2.7s Arc combo.

Happy with Purity/Arc of course just doesn't feel right that it's always the right move for damage.

Shecks

I'll say for the third time, I'm talking about using Handaxe in situations where I know it's safe to do, which is frankly often, but doesn't include duels with top 10 fully artied highly skilled fighters. For every Mixik there are are 9 other knights that couldn't focus lock me while I was afk, and that's probably true for a lot of people even with stock curing. Those people very well might be able to Damnation me etc. though so if I can beat them in the prep race, I will.

Saonji

Okay, fight me then.

I'm not top 10, nor am I fully artied. Not even close.

I won't even run.

Shecks

Can we not make this about how good you think I am or how good you think you are?

I have a few classleads ideas that I'd like to vet without every thread turning into a dogpile by the same 3 people.

Personally I'd like to see Rend and Broadsword be more relevant. The fact that a supposed "top paladin" (in quotes as there really aren't any active top tier paladins as Atalkez stopped playing it a long time ago) is saying that longsword slice is the only attack ever worth using should be viewed as a small, but significant but opportunity for improvement.

Saonji

It's not about that. It's about wanting you to actually prove your claims, rather than feebly deflect or ignore every counterargument that's made against what you're claiming.

I want to believe you, because it's things like this that actually change how peopple fight as certain classes (even if they get nerfed soon after).

Until then... This is, quite literally, the textbook definition of, "Just trust me, bro."

Mizik

I'm actually curious about that lv2 to lv3. I didn't get any increase in offensive capability.

Shecks

@Mizik the DPS of slice is either the same or lower with L3 broad purely because of how slow it is. It also still doesn't do more single-hit damage than Purity/Arc (with int/collar) so isn't relevant for that use case either.

The only thing I think it will be good for is using it for middle of the road balance between good limb damage and very slightly slower add pressure (again, while doing less DPS).

One use case that I want to add though are those fights where you're constantly hindered and barely get windows to hit back, in which case I'd much rather land a haymaker Rend with Broad (but again, a single 1.7s axe throw will do way more so why not just do that). IMO broad really only makes sense if you ignore handaxe. Any time you wouldn't use handaxe you'd want longsword/slice, and visa versa.

Hehe not even a joke but Broadsword use case seems to be for situations where you can't pick up your handaxe, which is rare but does happen.

Archaeon

while i understand the concept you're trying to say, but the idea is wrong and you constantly push out misinformation regarding a variety of classes that will inevitably take time on my part to correct, thus you are negatively impacting my life in game by drawing my attention away from things i need to do in order to correct the weird advice you give to my little pally bros.

i hope that satisfies your desire to know why i am particularly interested in countering your claims in this thread.

Mizik

@Shecks nah not broadsword, longsword. I did not find broadsword viable due to its speed and SNB's lack of Mastery for armour penetration. Increasing dmg stat by a few points meaningless without penetration.

But yeah, I'd love to see lv2 long vs 3 comparison.

Shecks

I don't think I've ever had a L2 longsword, sorry. Very possible that it's hitting a speed cap but can't confirm. Would seem a bit spiteful if L3 longsword was hitting a speed cap with Nimble and nothing else. Can also say I haven't had L3 longsword miss a single time even on some pretty high dex targets, out of what is probably close to 10,000 hits (I actually searched my logs to verify this, and it is true, not a single miss). Haven't tested on ultra-spec'd dex people though (serp w/ weaving etc).

Pretty sure damage difference is noticeable though. The difference between forged and L3 is enormous at high Str values though, with damage stat increase of only 119 to 130 (11 stat dif), so just the jump from 125 to 130 (5 stat dif, L2 to L3) would be almost half of whatever "enormous" means.

To put it another way, if I had an L2 longsword I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade it in a heartbeat, and I'm not upgrading my L2 broad because I don't actually expect to use it very often (as I'll almost always use either LS Slice for affs,, handaxe for prep, or purity/arc for damage).

I have the 800cr just sitting here and would rather it continue to sit there than upgrade Broad :/ - consider that incentive for producers to consider making it relevant for SnB.

I find it odd that Engage doesn't consider weapon damage. If I'm engaging with a L3 broad I'd expect that to hit harder than a 1000 gold longword. It would give people a reason to use broadsword even if it's inferior in pretty much every other way. It doesn't even need to scale with weapon damage stat, could just be a different base amount for broadswords than with longswords.

Mizik

Nah, the old classic Chivalry attacks - Lunge, Arc, Engage are str only. And then, I assert they have high base values (IE the portion that respects armour cutting % stat). These attacks will annihilate unarmored (Magi, Psion, Elementals) but bounce off Knights. Just like meteor arrows. I THINK Mastery used to work on these pre Knight specs, but haven't tested post.

Define enormous for L0 to L3 longsword? Dps, limb dmg? What exactly?

Shecks

I meant HP damage, but i don't have an equation for you. L3 Slice/Smash is the highest dps attack in the kit, as far as I can tell, though.