Limb Damage - Solved

Shecks

How is "I think I can beat you in combat" a substitute for an answer to why handaxe wouldn't be better to use in some cases as a SnB knight including the example I provided? I'll fight you when I damn well please.

Anyways you've managed to derail, so going to ignore anything else that doesn't relate to Limb Damage. Make your own thread if you want to flex about how great you are, so I can ignore it.

Archaeon

i damned him when they were all ganking me, ezpz, didn't break a sweat lmfao.

Atalkez

Throwing handaxe when rebounding is up instead of razing does have merit if you know that throw won't hit parry and you know they're going to turn around and drop rebounding themselves anyway shortly. It's a small window and you could make more progress by getting the extra limb damage+slightly quicker flow back into regular aff momentum for the raze vs handaxe throw.

I never did it personally because that's a lot of stuff to manage, but I can see the merit if you want to go down the rabbit hole of working all of those nuances out and including them into your attack logic. It isn't something that is "easy of use" friendly, but that's fine. Some people will make use of it, some won't. It's the same concept and reason that Penwize uses handaxe to prep in dragon instead of rending, even though nearly every person in the world uses rend instead. He's worked out how to use them specific to his approach, and it works.

Big Papa Jomi

You should shieldstrike on the raze combo, and give two afflictions - paralysis and sensitivity (which helps a kelp stack, important for burying asthma) OR undeaf, and battlecry is OP.

Atalkez

You should shieldstrike on the raze combo, and give two afflictions - paralysis and sensitivity (which helps a kelp stack, important for burying asthma) OR undeaf, and battlecry is OP.

This is once every four combos, and is not what you will want to always do either. Neither of these solutions is a one size fits all, which is the point.

Shecks

It's just a tool in your toolkit. It has use cases, which is clear. Don't know why people are saying it's never the best option even when clearly /sometimes/ it is.

Whether or not using it as a simple prep attack is safe for you or not is a judgement call but there are several use cases even against a meta opponent (like the rebounding example).

I think if you are against someone with para > clumsi (p much everyone) you can just stick clumsi with slice combo and keep it there with curare handaxes for quite a while while dishing out massive limb damage, as most people won't tree it. If they have nausea or darkshade > clumsi you can keep clumsi there for like 15-20s with just handaxe. You can't build herb stack but it's not bad at maintaining one. Won't work against passive healing for long though, but the occasional para/voyria combo will take care of that.

PS you can use shieldstrike with handaxe if you have the ferocity for it so that point is moot, and as kez mentioned you wouldn't always want to do this anyways.

Eryl

See, that’s what annoys me so much.

Its not about “being better” than you. I don’t give a shit about that. What I care about is you providing the LOGS of this BEING AS USEFUL as you claim it is.

You haven’t given any logs to justify ANYTHING you say on the forums. Your data is great and your interpretation of that data is also great, but it’s completely overshadowed by the fact that you refuse to give any logs to back up your theories.

Get out there and PROVE you’re right instead of saying everyone disagrees with you because they dislike you.

Buddy I can’t stand you, but I disagree with you on these combat things because you refuse to offer actual proof of anything you say other than “BUT ITS JUST THEORETICAL.”

Theory doesn’t kill people.

Archaeon

gravity is a theory and if a piano falls on you and you are not a cartoon it will probably kill you, so sometimes theories do kill.

Cooper

All the handaxe stuff with be irrelevant shortly after Mak realizes people are using it more frequently. It isn't intended. I wouldn't spend a lot of time strategizing around it.

Adrik

Handaxe bard nerf is partially my fault.

I will miss thee handaxe bard.

Shecks

It should be nerfed dramatically, and I hope it does get nerfed - but we've been waiting for that nerf for at least 10 years and it hasn't come, so I took that as a sign to stop holding my breath and just start using it.

Shecks

Update for SnB:

This is really accurate. The "real" formula is definitely not linear (it staggers), and this compensates for that perfectly. I think it is the real formula, although probably not expressed in the same way.

Let me also take a moment to mention something. This is really, really hard. Like, obnoxiously hard.

Formula:

d = math.floor(math.floor(7*A*W*h/3000)+math.floor(P*S^R*D))

Where:

A = scaling portion attack modifier {slice = 1, rend = 1.7}

W = scaling portion weapon modifier {longsword = 11, broadsword = 12}

h = max HP

P = 1.3 , S = 7 /4 - are Skill Modifiers * (see bottom of post for theory)

E = Attack modifier exponent {slice = 1, rend = 2}

D = weapon damage stat

R = [ ] - I will add in Runeblade multiplier later, it will be very easy to pull out.

For example, L3 Longsword Rend Trans Proficient no Runeblade:

Graphed for people who like graphs:

Red: L0, Blue: L1, Green: L2, Purple: L3

Top: Rend, Bottom: Slice

(Trans Weaponry + Proficiency, without Runeblade)

This is all academic, so you can ignore it if you're just looking to use the formula. Everything above works just fine, this is just theory:

* The factors on the flat portion (right side) are related to your Weaponry or Weaponmastery skill (uses whichever is higher), as well as Proficiency. I have a few theories on exactly how this works, but will leave it simplified here as it works perfectly fine assuming everyone is Trans Weaponry or Weaponmastery (and you'll always have the Proficiency as long as you're in Knight class).

could be

Where

P = combination of P and S factors above, so value would be static 91/40 for Trans + Proficient, with Z = 1 for Slice, 1.75 (aka 7/4) for Rend.

I've actually done a good deal of testing with and without proficiencies (on other weapons) and with and without Trans Weaponry (on alts) so I have an idea of how it all works and will eventually publish a "master" formula, assuming there is one.

It appears that Knights don't have a hidden proficiency aka. class multiplier for limb damage (like Sentinel does for handaxes) as for Knights, it's cooked into your class abilities (e.g. Rend and Slice) instead.

I've updated Manda with this new formula, along with upgraded anti-illusion and rebounding tracking (for opponents who hit themselves) and improved UI and API. Will eventually share once I feel that it's ready.

Shecks

There's a typo in the lua bit. To avoid confusion:

math.floor(math.floor(7*A*W*h/3000)+math.floor(P*S^E*D))

S^E not S^R

Shecks

Oh I totally lied about the graph.

Red is L0 Longsword, Blue is L3 Longsword

Green is L0 Broadsword, Purple is L3 Broadsword.

It's late, and 15min edit window is dumb.

I'll share a hits-to-break cheat-sheet tomorrow (as with handaxe etc) for people who like counting hits.

Accipiter

@Eryl The great thing about data is you can go out and find it yourself. The logs you are asking for would presumably be like 50 people getting hit enough to break their limb once without them doing anything. A very useful and interesting log to read and one that is next to impossible to recreate I guess.

Caelan

2.3.4.5.6... goddamn it

Caladbolg

...Just sayin to anyone who says limb damage being released is ridiculous, Have you ever tried coming back to this game after 5 years, losing all the data you had because your old computer burned up (Like from 2011-2015ish worth of data from purely assessing and fighting people worth of limb data) And then try to play something like bm? Where the limb damage is so wacky between stances that it's more of a pain to trace out?

Cause at this point I just hold down Balanceslash/sternum instead of trying to brokenstar off one legbreak or spend 10 minutes figuring out the correct combination to get a double legbreak when im fighting every new class that will kill you in 10 seconds without trying.

Should just rework the entire limb system imo doesn't need to be a super complicated mess of mathmatical formulas when we're in the age where half or more of the game is a walking robot with afflictions anyways.

Caelan

[X] Have you ever tried coming back to this game after 5 years,

[X] losing all the data you had because your old computer burned up

[X] (Like from 1999-2015ish worth of data from purely assessing and fighting people worth of limb data)

[X] And then try to play something like bm? 

[X] Write your own curing, limb tracking, aff tracking, etc

Caelan

So wtf do I do w the number? I appraised someone, they had something like 7758hp (I dont remember but the axe formula came up w like ~1365).

They took 16 hits to break. Wtf I do w the 1365? I havent had a ton of time to invest but was hoping to rewrite my limb tracking w something like this so I didnt have to re-test and find all the fringes. The linked page didnt seem to explain it. 1365 seemed to indicate a break should have happened at 6 hits when the damage exceeded maxhp.

can someone spoon-feed it (or write it in crayon) so I dont waste time on it when I get around to rewriting my code?

Amranu

7758/1365 = 5.68... therefore they will break in 6 hits.

Saonji

If someone is taking 16 hits to break with a handaxe, you're doing some really, really bad counting.

Caelan

I have to check the log, I tested like a week or two ago so the numbers arent exact... but it was definitely more than what the formula indicated

Gallida

That sounds like you don't have the proficiency, maybe?

Caelan

No I do have the proficiencies, my numbers were just off when I typed the formula into Mudlet.. put something in the wrong set of bracket, meh

Using the inline syntax though I believe it's all been standardized anyway.

That said, Ainly has 6457hp.

(((0.065*6457) + 6.5(106) - 40) * 1.2) = (419.705 + 689 - 40) * 1.2 = 1068.705 * 1.2 = 1282.446

floor(1282.446) = 1282

6457/1282 = 5.0366614 so, 6 hits.

Still took 7 hits to break. The formula doesn't seem accurate - unless I'm just sucking at math which is entirely plausible.

It was OK on 4620hp (5 hits at 4.056)

But it was wrong again on 10,751hp. I got 6.6487 (7 hits) and it took 9.

I just want to figure out what's causing the error. Very well could be me. I'm exhausted lately.

Caelan

Too late to edit..

I did some more testing using the formula Shecks initially posted for handaxe:

My previous data points I had for breaks is included in parenthesis and was done prior to the scaling down the dmg for inline axing.

4620 Formula is supposed to take 5, broke in 5. (My data said 4)

5281 is supposed to break in 5, took 6. (My data said 5)

5618 is supposed to break in 5, took 6. (My data said 5)

6457 is supposed to break in 6, took 7. (My data said 6)

6605 is supposed to break in 6, took 7. (My data said 7)

6935 is supposed to break in 6, took 7. (My data said 7)

7235 should be 6, took 7. (My data said 7)

7596 should be 6, took 7. (My data said 7)

10751 is supposed to break in 7, took 9 (My data said 8, though was incomplete over 9000hp)

It actually all fits in that test set if you remove the 1.2 bonus modifier up until somewhere between 7596 and 10751hp. I was in Sentinel, trans everything (all class skills, weaponry, etc, numerous weapon proficiencies). THROW AXE AT <x> LEFT LEG.

So either there is no modifier for Skirmishing/weaponry... or I'm bugged and haven't been getting said bonus, ever. Probably because I'm a cripple and Mak hates cripples I hear (lol)

Shecks

Yeah I keep saying over and over that this isn't for Sent heh. I can't confirm if she t bonus is exactly 20% bonus and it probably isn't. If guess it affects one part of the formula and not the other, or maybe both parts in different ways. Could also be two different bonuses (the skill bonus to Weaponry as well as a flat Sentinel bonus), which may not always be full maxed for all sentinels (as many don't take Weaponry).

Shecks

@Caelan after doing SnB (which was a great deal more strenuous in terms of data), I learned a few things. I will go back and try to get a Throw equation using the same formula structure which should end up being a lot more accurate. The errors come from the floor(x/500) type of thing which creates "steps" in hp values. For previous equations (like handaxe) I assumed a linear function but I can say with 100.0% certainty this is not the case, at least sometimes.

I can't test for sentinel but if you can give me a few finely tuned break windows (10-50hp) or a good number of not-so-finely tuned windows (100-200hp) on Sent (any artie level) I'd be able to sort it out for you.

I've asked for Sent data many times but so far no takers. As a non-sentinel I'm just fine with that but I'm happy to do the hard part if someone can do the easy part for me.

Caelan

Thanks. As much shit as people give you about it, and the fact I have never needed more than the counts, I can see the advantage here and posted that data just to show what it was (and the difference in my previous testing - though I don't remember which attack I used but I think it was TARGET/THROW).

edit: As I have time to mess w more values I will post them herr for you and anyone else who wants them, because honestly the fact it takes so much to be able to be accurate always bugged me. I hated having to ask people 4 years ago and it is still obnoxious now.

edit2: granted I will only be doing it for lvl3...but if Im doing it anyway to get thr new values I might as well make it known

Shecks

Other than always being accurate on your breaks every single time, the other big advantage is being able to freely mix and match attacks, and having a clientside API for "is person X's limb Y prepped for a break using attack A with weapon B in stance C". You can go further and do some recursive logic to basically "pathfind" optimal prep paths.

For instance you could do something like: If opponents right leg would take 2 Slice to prep but 1 handaxe would break but 1 Slice with Broadsword would prep for break for slice then swap to Broadsword". It sounds niche but it really isn't, it happens all the time, along with a bunch of other similar things. In that example you prep in 2.1s instead of 3.8 which is usually better in my book. In fact you can do this from the very first hit, not just the last one, which puts all your faster aff stacking towards the break instead of on the tail end of your prep.

On Manda for BM it would automatically display the most efficient path to prep in your current stance/band on the GUI, as another example.

Back before I had handaxe I'd use thrown Thoths to double break limbs on a 1.6s balance each for a pretty significant burst of hindrance and pseudo salve lock. Thoths throw does < 1% damage though so you need to nail the prep math, especially since you'd pathfind between like 8 dif weapons to hit 99.5% damage as efficiently as possible. (It was just academic back then but with handaxe it's meta due to being like 20% vs 0.7% per hit).

Akicita

Now classlead 75 exists! I'm super thrilled about it because I was not looking forward to trying to write a limb damage counter