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Earring of Sinope - discussion

ShecksShecks Member Posts: 772 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
I wanted to submit a classlead about this, but could not come up with a good enough solution.  I'm also not confident that I'm not missing something here.  Could we discuss this and see if there's a solution in-game that we might not know about (I've asked maybe 40-50 people about this hand haven't found one yet).

I'll state things as I see them - and would welcome any corrections or additions.

Assumptions / things to note:
• Earring is stopped by paralysis, prone, or a writhe affliction (bound, web, impale, transfixed)
• It is not stopped by broken limbs (of any level), or stun
• Most people who have earrings and would be using earrings mid-combat have buckawns amulet artefact
• There is no cooldown on earrings whatsoever
• With the vicarious sigil you can actually earring to anyone in the game, instantaneously (although this does have a cooldown).

Problem:  
 = Alias =
curing afflictions off
travel to X with earring
(wait 1.40 - 1.45 seconds)
smoke valerian
dwinnu (if bard) / shrugging (if serpent)
eat bloodroot / magnesium
stand
curing afflictions on
This simple alias 100% bypasses all of the restrictions on earring, plain and simple, and I know for a fact that some people, myself included, are actively using it.

Only two classes in the game (that I know of!) that can stop Hangedman on their own, and even this only works some of the time.  No class can actually just stop earring travel, solo - which I do not thing is intended.

Occultists & Jester have the only ability in the game that stops earring travel that cannot be instantly cured:  Hangedman - however now hangedman can fail so repeated use of the above alias is guaranteed to work.  Also, this doesn't count for Bards who can Dwinnu / earring.
Bard can stop it using Tremelo + paralysis a single time, but cannot stop a second use.
Shaman and Sentinel can stop it once, but only if they are on balance when earring starts, as their counters (prone/disrupt) both require two attacks during 1.5s window.

Several classes have abilities that can stop it in 2v1 scenarios  - namely Impale.

If you're not one of these classes, then even if you have 3 or 4 people in a room, all all balance, all ready to attack, you cannot stop earring travel, against this macro.  Even if you kill them with 5 simultaneous damage attacks their earring will presumably complete post-starburst, allowing them to escape alive.

Conclusion:

The "nerf" wasn't really a nerf.  Even a novice can copy/paste the above alias and can act like the windup time and limitations do not exist.


Solutions:

There are many possible solutions.  The key is to do something that threads the fine line between making the item no longer viable for escaping (and angering the huge number of players who own them) - while still making.  I will list out some of the ideas I have heard or come up with, for consideration.

Best solutions:

• Make the 1.5s windup a channel.

• Initiation of the earring windup disables the buckawns defence for 10s   (this has a bonus effect of giving Web tattoo a reason to exist).

• Give the item a 1-hour cooldown, across all earrings you own, unless you are 95% health/mana and have no afflictions.   For consideration, wand of reflections is FAR less powerful defensively than earring, and has a 1-hour cooldown.

• You have the aeon effect during the 1.5s windup.  This would effectively allow someone two stop travel with TWO of the hindering afflictions (you cannot eat bloodroot AND stand). 

• Require 100% health, mana, and no afflictions for GLOBAL travel.  If not perfectly healthy, restrict it to AREA travel only.


Good solutions:

• Make earring respect room hinder / movement abilities like gravehands, piety, distort, hamstring, pinshot, etc.   This is not great for two reasons:  1) You can still RNG out on first or second try too easily, and 2) Many classes have no such ability.

• Require 95%+ health and mana and no afflictions (at initiation and at end of windup) - just like all the new fast-travel artefacts do (hints that admin know this is broken)

• Travel fails at initiation and windup in any room where anyone has you enemied (may sound too harsh, but all you have to do is move 1 room).
 You place your hand over an earring of Sinope, and it begins to warm beneath your palm. 
 An earring of Snipe loses its warmth as the feelings of hatred from those nearby drown out the thoughts of your true love.


Not so Good solutions I've heard - and why they're bad -

• Make the windup long enough for it to be realistically possible to stop it with an affliction.  I would think this would be around 4-5s.  (only reason this isn't great is because it'd unnecessarily affect use outside of combat).

• Simply require no afflictions.  This is not great because some classes (notably, monks), don't have a reliable way to stop it.

• Attempted movement (including forced movement via Force abilities or Beckon) and forced movement (boomerange, yank, barge) stop it.  This is bad because not all classes have a way to force movement, and most of them are completely countered by adding mass or shackle to the above earring alias.

• Prevent ring travel to anyone in a city, ship, or private property.  This would at least allow chasing them, in theory, but doesn't really work for numerous reasons, and would also dramatically reduce the value of the item for people using it outside of combat, so should not be considered.

• Make monolith stop it (with no other change) - this does nothing, it is not a solution.  Mushroom sigils (and Fire Tanks) exist.  Also, placing a monolith doesn't prevent the person from just going to the next room and using earring - and not all classes have a way to prevent this.

Opinion time:

As a person who owns many earrings, it's my personal opinion that they're just bad for the game.  Fast travel makes so many things in this game pointless, and ruins conflict as said conflict can almost 100% be eliminated by use of earrings, especially coupled with all of the other fast-travel items that don't have wind-ups, like wings.  

While @Makarios and team are, I am sure, worried about upsetting people who bought earrings, they should keep in mind that people who own earrings are also getting a bad game experience from this too, from other people who have earrings.  Despite owning multiple earrings (on multiple characters) I would consider a nerf to earrings a good thing for me, for three reasons:

1)  My personal opponents would be able to abuse it less, which would mean 1v1 combat against people with earrings is no longer 100% pointless.

2)  I would not be able to abuse my own earrings, which frankly removes the consequences of any actions (e.g. solo invading a city with confinement up) or tactics (e.g. not getting bottlenecked into a dangerous position within an area) from the game for me, making it less fun.

3)  Team / city-vs-city conflict would be a LOT more fun for everyone, without earrings.  Things like guards, city geography, orbs of confinement, shrines, would actually matter if earrings didn't permit near-instant and unstoppable fast-travel in and out of cities on a whim.


Comments

  • AdrikAdrik Member Posts: 632 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    dstab person delphinium delphinium
    dsl delphinium delphinium
    bard has jab martellato
    psion can prone people easy.
    magi can prone people relatively easy, iirc.
    dragon can prone people
    BM can poke you prone.
    Druid/Sentinel can prone you super easy.
    Monk can prone you.

    There are probably a ton of other classes that can prone you super easy.

    Vicarious sigil is 8 mayan crowns for 1 earring only, and has a fucking 300ish hour cooldown on being able to swap partners again. (Note: Partners are ONLY those mutually allied. No lusty bois).

    I am really not sure what you mean by "You can just stand after touching earring." Because you can't. My C/D on touch earring is about 2.2 seconds (with diadem). It completes in 1.5 or so.  Maybe as a class that has EQ gem + quick witted + diadem?
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 772 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 14

    I really messed up by forgetting that using earring consumes balance, so you cannot stand during the windup.  This hurts the argument quite a lot, however it does not end the discussion as many classes cannot prone a target, or cannot do it fast enough to stop repeated earring.  In theory as long as your prone attack takes longer than 1.5s, escape is 100% guaranteed.

    Also, it's a simple matter to just earring immediately after someone attacks you.  As long as their attack uses more than 1.5s balance, you have a guaranteed unstoppable escape, as they cannot prone you while off balance.

    Thanks to @Adrik for pointing out the obvious, here.
  • ArchaeonArchaeon Ur mums house lolMember Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    why would you think about things when you can just complain about them
  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,229 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I miss old earring. Maybe, instead, we can revert to its former function. It was much better. 
    image
    CooperDalranAustere
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,722 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Your base assumption that you shouldn't be able to earring away from 1v1 is wrong. 1v1 has been intentionally designed to be escapable until you're locked or someone is executing their kill combo after prepping. There are a lot of arties, talisman, and cards that change how effective and easy it is to escape the fight, but none of them will ever stop it completely. There are a couple of unique situations - like being on an island, in the Underworld, certain areas of Yggdrasil, etc. that are going to make it almost impossible to get away from someone who is attacking you, but under normal circumstances it won't ever be a problem.

    You can't stand up after using earring, you're off EQ. Almost every class in the game can easily stop earring.

    Pazuzu cards also stop earring (and all "magical" travel).

    I would like to see the list of the 40-50 people you talked to, name and shame! Hard to believe that 40-50 combatants would all have thought you can stand up off EQ like you do.

  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 772 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 14

    A debate about whether or not earring should be a 100% guaranteed escape (provided you are on plane), or even a viable mid-combat escape in any capacity, is a separate conversation, but it is a base assumption of my post that this detracts from the game for both parties in 1v1 scenario, as well as in group/raid scenarios.  As I mentioned already, it's absolutely untrue that nearly every class in the game can stop it.  Only classes that can prone repeatedly in less than 1.5s can do it or classes with Hangedman (although it's RNG if it fails or not), and even then are barred from using anything other than that, as if they use any balance over 1.5s earring becomes 100% guaranteed.

    I've laid out some reasons why I do not think guaranteed global fast-travel while afflicted, mid-combat, is good for the game or gameplay experience in general - including from the perspective of the earring owner.  You're entitled to disagree on that design philosophy if you want.

    Cooper said:
    Pazuzu cards also stop earring (and all "magical" travel).
    It's my understanding that Pazuzu stops magical travel INTO a room, not out of it (as this is specifically what it states in-game) - which completely removes it from the scope of this discussion.  If that's not the case, I'd definitely like to know.

    Personally I don't see what the point of having a Mark system (or really any 1v1 interaction other than a duel, really) is in a game where you can instantly teleport out of any 1v1 fight that you don't elect to stay in, voluntarily, even well into mid to late stages of a kill path.  The entire continent is a safe space - and the only counter is to gank with a group.
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 772 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 14

    Put another way, I think it has always been broken and bad for the game, but was never a huge problem, for two reasons:

    1)  They were pretty expensive (earrings used to cost roughly $250)
    2)  You had to link them with someone semi-permanently, which was risky

    The result was that not a lot of people bought them.

    However, neither of those is true anymore.  Earrings are like $80-90 thanks to these wonderful new promotions (via talismans) and it's far easier to farm 800cr than it used to be making gating broken things behind a paywall no longer very effective, which is why there are now now dozens, if not hundreds of them on at any given time, nowadays.

    This is, in my view, why they got "nerfed" in the first place.  I'm just explaining why the nerf really wasn't successful as it used to be guaranteed escape, and still is.


  • JovoloJovolo Member Posts: 3,339 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    nobodys running away from u in duels bro you aint gotta worry
    Trey
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 788 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 15
    If earrings were some kind of outlier, maybe, but if we're going to talk about this, we gotta talk about gare, puppet summon and travel, universe, urns, deliverance, convocation, Ashaxei, etc. etc.

    Achaea provides a lot of travel (escape) routes via a second person, whether actively on your side or via trigger on theirs. It's never been meant to be balanced 1v1 in favour of an attacker being able to kill you if you're trying to get away, and a whole lot of class skills and arties reflect that.

    ETA: A person who has evade complaining about people getting away in 1v1 is some kinda irony, too.
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,726 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    More classess than ever have a way to room hinder
    More classess than ever have a way to prone
    More classess than ever have a way to push hinder affs
    More People than ever have talismans, cards and arties of numerous kinds

    If -anyone- of nearly any class doesn't want to fight you there is a chance they will get away. This is a Good Thing. Some of those can be countered at the time and some with prep, this is also a Good Thing. Counter play is extremely important. 

    Earrings are totally fine as they are, open up so many more people to raiding and interaction and allow those classes with no instant travel a way to move around.. with ONE OTHER PERSON for 800cr a pop. 
    image
  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 606 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 15
    Reyson said:
    If earrings were some kind of outlier, maybe, but if we're going to talk about this, we gotta talk about gare, puppet summon and travel, universe, urns, deliverance, convocation, Ashaxei, etc. etc.
    ...
    ETA: A person who has evade complaining about people getting away in 1v1 is some kinda irony, too.
    These are pretty bad arguments. Class abilities should be stronger, and everything you listed is more easily countered than earrings. Even the ones that require more people are more limited, being same area only or stopped by mono. Gare is the best comparison, which is locked to a class that is overpowered defensively but offensively weak.
    Honestly, I wasn't really bothered by earrings in duels until you made that Gare comparison. Now I agree that they're way too strong.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,435 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Earrings are fine. If someone is wanting to get away from you, they're going to get away in most cases. Earrings aren't working better than several other travel abilities already mentioned in most cases. If someone is earring away from your duel, then clearly they didn't want to duel you in the first place. Things like Raido/Pathfinder/Fulcrum/Urn all are much better than an earring at getting you away from a duel, anyway.

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Reyson
  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 606 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 15
    Atalkez said:
    Earrings are fine. If someone is wanting to get away from you, they're going to get away in most cases. Earrings aren't working better than several other travel abilities already mentioned in most cases. If someone is earring away from your duel, then clearly they didn't want to duel you in the first place. Things like Raido/Pathfinder/Fulcrum/Urn all are much better than an earring at getting you away from a duel, anyway.
    Dropping flamed monos takes no balance and hard-stops Raido and Fulcrum. Pathfinder and Urn respect room hinder, but both have been the subject of much complaining regardless. The point isn't to stop escaping, anyways, it's that giving every class a Gare equivalent is pretty dumb. Mobility bloat is why every new and reworked class includes prep or kills people in 12 seconds flat.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,435 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 15
    It requires an ally to be online, which makes it more equitable to empress/deliverance/summon than any of those listed, anyway, if we’re comparing. All of these are impossible to stop if someone really wants to get away from you. It seems silly to suddenly claim earrings are overpowered when they’re just one of several options.

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • DalranDalran Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Ya, you trippin' my dude.
  • SophiSophi Rally PointMember Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I can't believe I agree with Shecks, but yes, please delete buckawns
    Eryl
  • GallidaGallida Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Nah, leave buckawns. You don't need buckawns unless the world knows you don't have buckawns. If everyone assumes you have it, you can trade it in.
  • DominiusDominius Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Shecks, I love the energy and effort you are putting into Achaea, thanks for that it spices things up for sure. Not sure I'm with you on this though, I think things are already a lot easier than they used to be, with vials filling automatically from rift etc etc I really think that since nowadays fighting is not like, omg he/she's so overpowered anymore but more of if you fight, you always lose some and win some, some people win more than others yeah, but it's those people who keep optimizing things. today is more about looking over a fight and seeing what you did wrong and putting your head into how to change your script or commands to adapt to that problem, then a new one arises, then there's this one player who has this strategy you're developing a defense against etc. That's part of the game and I kinda feel like that's the point. It's also what I enjoy about it, cause you get a chance to slowly scrutinize your logs and see where you can improve or change things, not many games have that for ya. I think things are already well-balanced and chances are equal for everyone, you can be low invest but know your shit so well and can code all the timers of every skill and herb into your system or you can draw from experience and work with aliases, options are plenty and earrings are just part of it. If someone is able to get away with them and die less, good for them. There are always ways around everything, there are a LOT of very smart people playing here and options seem, even after years of playing, limitless. Usually if something feels abusive and overpowered a lot of people will comment on it and it will get worked up quickly.
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