Best Fighters: 2020 Edition

Mizik

Not for nothing, but I would trash Tanris 1v1 now. Let me at him.

Edit: Just not at the other IRE games, cus he cheats.

Saonji

Jovolo said:

How would 4-5 people have dominated the entire list

Easy, you have the much higher level fighters on those classes, performing better than the ones being argued for.

If arguments are being made between XYZ on Runewarden... MizChad comes along being better than all 3 of them, then you remove them from the equation. It doesn't turn into a fourway argument, when there's one person who's clearly better.

There's a number of people you can put as being good at every class. You're asking who's best at them, though, not who stands out.

eta: Also comparing people back then, to people now, isn't really a fair argument. It's like comparing PvPers in 2004 WoW, to PvPers now. Skill levels have increased significantly, so top tier -really- stand out from others. Whereas 'top' people back then might have really only been middle at best. People have improved across the board. You're not killing even midbies with curare/aconite or curare/prefarar spam anymore.

Jovolo

you're absolutely fucking mental if you think that Mizik would have been definitively better than Tirac/Carmain/Ellodin at any of the Knight classes, it would have absolutely been competitive with the definitive best being up in the air given the day / RNG / whatever else.

He might even attest to that himself @Mizik but at this point it's hard to refer to anything other than hypotheticals

The point I was making @Saonji is that it was far more difficult to point to somebody as being the best at a certain class because there was more competition surrounding it, because there were more fighters who were that good (i.e. top tier)

Saonji

Jovolo said:

Sorry, but you're absolutely fucking mental if you think that Mizik would have been definitively better than Tirac/Carmain/Ellodin at any of the Knight classes, it would have absolutely been competitive with the definitive best being up in the air given the day / RNG / whatever else.

He might even attest to that himself @Mizik but at this point it's hard to refer to anything other than hypotheticals

If that's what you took away from what I said, then enjoy cherrypicking I guess. I'm not about having you try put words in my mouth.

Jovolo

Jovolo: How would you have had 4-5 people dominating the entire list when there were multiple people competing for top honours in the Knight classes alone

Saonji: If arguments are being made between XYZ on Runewarden... MizChad comes along being better than all 3 of them, then you remove them from the equation. It doesn't turn into a fourway argument, when there's one person who's clearly better.

Jovolo: you're absolutely fucking mental if you think that Mizik would have been definitively better than Tirac/Carmain/Ellodin at any of the Knight classes

Saonji: enjoy cherrypicking I guess.

??????

I'll repeat this because I think some of our points are being lost in edits:

The point I was making @Saonji is that it was far more difficult to point to somebody as being the best at a certain class because there was more competition surrounding it, because there were more fighters who were that good (i.e. top tier). You said "It doesn't turn into a fourway argument, when there's one person who's clearly better."

My point is that there wasn't one person who was clearly better and there wouldn't have been if multi-class existed. You used Mizik as an example, not me, and I think it's a fair argument to say that he would not have been the clear best at any of the Knight classes. As to whether Tanris would have been, I don't know, but I doubt that he would have been clearly better than Ellodin/Tirac/Carmain either.

Saonji

Yes, cherrypicking because I never said Mizik would have been better. 'MizChad' was quite clearly a general term referring to anyone who could have been better. If I meant Mizik, I'd have said Mizik.

My point is that there wasn't one person who was clearly better and there wouldn't have been if multi-class existed. You used Mizik as an example, not me, and I think it's a fair argument to say that he would not have been the clear best at any of the Knight classes. As to whether Tanris would have been, I don't know, but I doubt that he would have been clearly better than Ellodin/Tirac/Carmain either.

Again, I never used anyone as an example. You can't say something wouldn't have been a thing, when there's literally no way to know. Multiclass absolutely would have shook things up, it's crazy to argue otherwise. The other games already prove this fact.

The difference between top tier these days, and top tier back then, is night and day. Back then you could kill a lot of people just looping curare/aconite, lol. Not to mention multiple illusions outright breaking people's systems.

I've seen a number of people who were considered 'top tier' back then, come back and lose to average joes.

Atalkez

I agree with Mizik. I'd back myself right now against anyone that has ever played the game in general. There are matchups that will come down to class, but as far as ability I think you're very rose-tinted to say anyone "back then" is better than the best now. 

It's very similar to comparing 80s basketball with the current generation. Skill level across the board has gone up, therefore the average is also much higher with the top being a higher level, too.

Mizik

Oh. I was mostly talking shit. Sun Tzu, The Art of War say, "The places that I shall attack are precisely those that the enemy cannot defend."

In this case, the Achaean forums.

Iocun

Saonji said:

The difference between top tier these days, and top tier back then, is night and day. Back then you could kill a lot of people just looping curare/aconite, lol. Not to mention multiple illusions outright breaking people's systems.

We probably should clarify what we mean with "top/middle/low tier" then, because if we're going by ability alone, none of this is of any relevance. If people died to stupid shit back in the day and don't so much anymore, the difference probably lies more in things like game balancing, serverside curing, and third-party scripting, than individual ability.

And former "top tier" people coming back and losing to average joes is obviously to be expected. You don't just leave for several years and retain an ability like that without practice - not to mention the time it will take to familiarise oneself with all the new aspects of combat.

All that being said, comparing fighters of different eras is pretty pointless anyway. There simply isn't a meaningful way to do so and all we get are debates like "Who'd win in a fight? Bruce Lee, Muhammad Ali, or Alexander the Great?".

Archaeon

Alexander the great obviously

Aerek

Jovolo said:
Back in my day you'd have at least 3-4 people competing for nearly every single class in the best fighters threads and now it's like four or five names that comprise the entire list.

7 years ago, complex scripting wasn't as prevalent, so anyone that had good offense or defense was memorable just for having those things. I think as scripting has become both more optimized and more available, it's just harder to stand out. There's the elite handful of indisputable talent, and everyone else kinda fades into the crowd of aff-tracking offences and best-practice curing prios.

I also feel that a lot of classes have power crept to the point that aggressive play trumps defensive play, so fights are less like chess matches, and more like races to your respective finishers. There's less room for "Tirac v Kalvon" duels of legend that get written into the history books.

Iocun said:
 "Who'd win in a fight? Bruce Lee, Muhammad Ali, or Alexander the Great?".

AtG all the way. Lee and Ali got no answer for that sarissa phalanx.

Caladbolg

Eh, scripts was pretty big 7 years ago. Not everyone had complex scripts but most of the top fighters did. Sneaking torso in as a bm never worked for example because everyone applied to torso the second it broke. Then people like Dunn would be in the room the second I evaded, Strata had an affliction tracker already. I, had highlights for when someone shielded...  Svo was everything you could ask for.

Also 7 years ago since Complex scripts wasn't a wide thing there was alot of abilities that could easily do what the complex scripts do now.

Jovolo

My argument has never been that people aren't more efficient now, that was always going to be inevitable with considerable buffs after buffs to each class and the increasing prevalence of coding. Scripts were available and relatively complex 7 years ago I agree with Caladbolg, but now they are everywhere.

My argument has always been that the scene is less competitive and that there is less top tier competition challenging for the top spots.

Saonji brought up the argument of multi-class which I think is bullshit, you had multiple top level players in the Knight classes before the classes were overhauled, and none of whom were definitively the best. I'll say them again: Ellodin, Carmain, Tirac, Mizik, Jarrel, Tynil, Kalvon, maybe Naisar, and maybe Vaehl for Infernal. The difference between then and now is not multi-class, it's the quality of players.

When bringing multi-class into the situation you'd also have people like Tanris and Xinna, maybe Santar and maybe even Rean, competing against the above for best Knight. Multi-class would have made things more competitive, not less. There was simply just a bigger pool of high level fighters in the one versus one scene.

That isn't the case anymore and I don't see how anyone can argue that the one versus one scene is still as competitive as it was.

Cooper

Cooper & Tanris vs. Rean & Spire

That's the only log I have of me fighting. It isn't anything special...but you might be confusing Rean for someone else.

Rean was the monk who would borrow level 3 arties and kill people with single leg break into axekick. When I was Runie at dragon level he could still do 120% my health through fullplate and algiz.

Jovolo

I do think that Rean improved in the year or two prior to his Retirement, but also he improved quite a lot on the next character he played. One of the weaker names I listed, sure

Aerek

Caladbolg said:

Eh, scripts was pretty big 7 years ago. Not everyone had complex scripts but most of the top fighters did. Sneaking torso in as a bm never worked for example because everyone applied to torso the second it broke. Then people like Dunn would be in the room the second I evaded, Strata had an affliction tracker already. I, had highlights for when someone shielded...  Svo was everything you could ask for.

Also 7 years ago since Complex scripts wasn't a wide thing there was alot of abilities that could easily do what the complex scripts do now.

Right, and all the fighters who had those capabilities back then stand out in your mind, because most people didn't have that. These days, those capabilities are kinda what it takes to be "competent". Having top-notch curing or an offence that never misses a beat isn't really exceptional anymore, it's kinda expected if you're serious. With a higher bar for entry, it's harder to stand out from the crowd.

Saonji

Cooper said:

Cooper & Tanris vs. Rean & Spire

> You are snubbing that person and may not communicate with him or her.

smh

Cooper

Rean and I didn't get along back in the day, we've repaired the relationship so I'm sure he doesn't mind I posted that.

It was more to show several top tier fighters failing to kill each other for too long despite both having access to raze/aeon.

It was also a hilarious fight because I was a member of Shallam (might have been Vizier) who was intentionally teaming up with an Occultist.

Saonji

Cooper said:

Rean and I didn't get along back in the day, we've repaired the relationship so I'm sure he doesn't mind I posted that.

It was more to show several top tier fighters failing to kill each other for too long despite both having access to raze/aeon.

It was also a hilarious fight because I was a member of Shallam (might have been Vizier) who was intentionally teaming up with an Occultist.

It says that line in your log.

Caladbolg

Aerek said:

Caladbolg said:

Eh, scripts was pretty big 7 years ago. Not everyone had complex scripts but most of the top fighters did. Sneaking torso in as a bm never worked for example because everyone applied to torso the second it broke. Then people like Dunn would be in the room the second I evaded, Strata had an affliction tracker already. I, had highlights for when someone shielded...  Svo was everything you could ask for.

Also 7 years ago since Complex scripts wasn't a wide thing there was alot of abilities that could easily do what the complex scripts do now.

Right, and all the fighters who had those capabilities back then stand out in your mind, because most people didn't have that. These days, those capabilities are kinda what it takes to be "competent". Having top-notch curing or an offence that never misses a beat isn't really exceptional anymore, it's kinda expected if you're serious. With a higher bar for entry, it's harder to stand out from the crowd.

Actually the bigger thing was those fighters who had those capabilities understood combat and coding enough to code it in.
They stay in my mind because they had these things and artifacts.
Tons of people had complicated scripts because they enjoyed scripting but didn't understand/enjoy combat enough to actually put a lot towards being good at it.
Tons of people had the knowledge of combat good enough to be doing script type things but didn't know how to code.

But I also missed the point I ment to make is that everyone now has what seems to be a full set of Artifacts. which makes a huge difference.

Santar

Iocun said:

Saonji said:

The difference between top tier these days, and top tier back then, is night and day. Back then you could kill a lot of people just looping curare/aconite, lol. Not to mention multiple illusions outright breaking people's systems.

And former "top tier" people coming back and losing to average joes is obviously to be expected. You don't just leave for several years and retain an ability like that without practice 

I came straight out of 4 RL year dormancy to almost win Twins with scrub-gor(JK I love Rangor) as my partner. Literally would've won if I had 'stand' in my dessicate alias. 

Though tbf I had like a 7 year prime before dormancy and came back with all my old system stuff in tact. I definitely felt the weight of not having all the legend cards/new talisman arties at my disposal for a while though.  Or knowing about the million changes to the game that occurred. I was teaching a novice 2 months after coming back and they were like, "I lead with curare/vernalius" and I'm like "No you can't do that, they'll just focus it." Then the realization hit me. 

Nbige

top 5 best fighters of all time?  Dalran, Dalran, Dalran, Dalran, and Dalran.

Jarrel

Well, to be honest. People's defense/curing was pretty much the same it is now, mostly automated. It's understanding PvP mechanics and being able to react appropriately, there are a bunch of people like Mizik who did quite well in multiple classes. It would really come down to who had the most arties suitable for multiple classes and understood the mechanics who would dominate the multiclass scenario.

There really weren't that many people competing for top of knight class by the way. Tirac was an easy best. Some of the names on your list would only really duel/fight high midbies and weren't all that great at doing much from what I remember.

Talysin

I thought I was best Jester :C

Jarrel

> @Talysin said:
> I thought I was best Jester :C

Nah, that would be me with the juggle hierophant riftlock ;), Well atleast for that time.