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2h Warhammer Combat Questions

MOSEY
MOSEY Member Posts: 15
edited December 2020 in Runewarden
Hello! 

I am trying to git gud with a warhammer and need some clarification on my combat.

Regarding the ability to battlefury focus, the helpfiles state that by focusing precision "damage dealt by the next attack will be reduced, but the number of limb-based afflictions dealt will be doubled." Is this referring to the build up of "fractures"? Fractures are, to the best of my knowledge, what gives afflictions when fighting as a 2hander, with different body parts contributing to different afflictions (especially if not using sword/venoms and not counting runes). Likewise, does it also mean that the limb-damage will be reduced? Or, does "decreased damage" refer to HP reduction?

Is the following correct?

-UNFOCUSED: x hits to prep limb, standard fracture buildup, standard damage/limb damage.

-FOCUS SPEED: x hits to prep limb, standard fracture buildup (reduced fracture? doesn't say that, if so), standard damage/limb damage, faster balance recovery.

-FOCUS PRECISION: x hits to prep limb, double fracture buildup, reduced damage/standard limb damage, slower balance recovery.

or

-FOCUS PRECISION: >x hits to prep limb, double fracture buildup, reduced damage/reduced limb damage, slower balance recovery.

According to this breakdown, I can't see any reason to NOT focus either speed or precision. Speed seems like unfocused but faster, precision is slower, but more afflicting. Is this correct? Please clarify if possible.



Secondly, do 2handers have an instakill? For flavour, I would like to only use a warhammer. I've heard that warhammers are better at limb-damage than bastard swords, albeit slower at afflicting (lack of venoms, obviously). So, I would be capitalizing on my prep, vs momentum. However, I'm also aware that fracture build up is important. Do bastard swords and warhammers build up fractures at the same rate even if limb damage is different (if that is indeed the case)?



And, a question regarding limb damage:

Limb damage is dealt according to strength, weaponmastery skill, and opponents health, right (at least in regards to 2h RW)? I know, for example, Druids have a hydra combo that preps limbs in 3 hits regardless of strength or opponents. I'm guessing this is because Druid is essentially entirely a prep class vs 2h RW which is both prep and momentum. Is this also correct? And, does limb damage cause afflictions for every class or are the afflictions that I'm delivering by pulverizing limbs specific to 2h?

Sorry to have so many questions, thanks in advance for any answers.



edited for wording clarification.

Comments

  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 879 @ - Epic Achaean
    MOSEY said:

    -UNFOCUSED: x hits to prep limb, standard fracture buildup, standard damage/limb damage.

    -FOCUS SPEED: x hits to prep limb, standard fracture buildup (reduced fracture? doesn't say that, if so), standard damage/limb damage, faster balance recovery.

    -FOCUS PRECISION: x hits to prep limb, double fracture buildup, reduced damage/standard limb damage, slower balance recovery.

    This is almost correct. Precision also halves the amount of limb damage dealt. Standard fracture buildup is 1 fracture, doubled would be 2. 

    You should always focus something, unless you need battlefury balance for something else (proning after a leg break, for example). 




    Secondly, do 2handers have an instakill? For flavour, I would like to only use a warhammer. I've heard that warhammers are better at limb-damage than bastard swords, albeit slower at afflicting (lack of venoms, obviously). So, I would be capitalizing on my prep, vs momentum. However, I'm also aware that fracture build up is important. Do bastard swords and warhammers build up fractures at the same rate even if limb damage is different (if that is indeed the case)?

    The only knight variant with an instakill that actually works with 2H is Infernal. Unfortunately warhammer doesn't really have any solid finishers without switching to a sword for disembowel. I do not really count brain (which should fill this role) because its usually worse at finishing someone than just continue to use standard attacks.


    And, a question regarding limb damage:

    Limb damage is dealt according to strength, weaponmastery skill, and opponents health, right (at least in regards to 2h RW)? I know, for example, Druids have a hydra combo that preps limbs in 3 hits regardless of strength or opponents. I'm guessing this is because Druid is essentially entirely a prep class vs 2h RW which is both prep and momentum. Is this also correct? And, does limb damage cause afflictions for every class or are the afflictions that I'm delivering by pulverizing limbs specific to 2h?

    Limb damage is based on the skill used, weapon damage, cutting vs blunt damage type (blunt deals double-ish), and opponents maximum health. Some classes do not use weapons, or deal completely percent based limb damage - like hydra clamp, or dragon rend. 2H isn't one of these.

    The basic concept is each attack deals a certain # of damage, when this crosses a threshold based on the opponent's maximum health they get the damagedleftleg (or whatever limb) affliction, which takes a 4s to cure. These afflictions, which most people just refer to as legbreaks/armbreaks/torsobreaks etc., are very strong and usually the focus of many classes offense.

    Fractures (torntendons, wristfractures, skullfractures, crackedribs) are specific to the 2H specialisation and come from your attacks, not the limb breaks. 
           
    Kog
  • MOSEY
    MOSEY Member Posts: 15
    Hey, thanks for answering!
    Taryius said:

    Secondly, do 2handers have an instakill? For flavour, I would like to only use a warhammer. I've heard that warhammers are better at limb-damage than bastard swords, albeit slower at afflicting (lack of venoms, obviously). So, I would be capitalizing on my prep, vs momentum. However, I'm also aware that fracture build up is important. Do bastard swords and warhammers build up fractures at the same rate even if limb damage is different (if that is indeed the case)?

    The only knight variant with an instakill that actually works with 2H is Infernal. Unfortunately warhammer doesn't really have any solid finishers without switching to a sword for disembowel. I do not really count brain (which should fill this role) because its usually worse at finishing someone than just continue to use standard attacks.

    Yeah, I've sort of noticed this. I always expect the damage to be really brutal when I land these and feel like I'm always left a bit disappointed. Now, I haven't experimented a lot with trying to land a highly-stacked-head-fracture Overwhelm-Brain, but I also am not sure how I could manage to survive a fight long enough to pull this off. 

    Maybe if I get like 10 head fractures stacked and then Overwhelm-Brain, I'll get the damage I'm looking for. Probably not feasible though :D

    Taryius said:
    And, a question regarding limb damage:

    Limb damage is dealt according to strength, weaponmastery skill, and opponents health, right (at least in regards to 2h RW)? I know, for example, Druids have a hydra combo that preps limbs in 3 hits regardless of strength or opponents. I'm guessing this is because Druid is essentially entirely a prep class vs 2h RW which is both prep and momentum. Is this also correct? And, does limb damage cause afflictions for every class or are the afflictions that I'm delivering by pulverizing limbs specific to 2h?

    Limb damage is based on the skill used, weapon damage, cutting vs blunt damage type (blunt deals double-ish), and opponents maximum health. Some classes do not use weapons, or deal completely percent based limb damage - like hydra clamp, or dragon rend. 2H isn't one of these.

    The basic concept is each attack deals a certain # of damage, when this crosses a threshold based on the opponent's maximum health they get the damagedleftleg (or whatever limb) affliction, which takes a 4s to cure. These afflictions, which most people just refer to as legbreaks/armbreaks/torsobreaks etc., are very strong and usually the focus of many classes offense.

    Fractures (torntendons, wristfractures, skullfractures, crackedribs) are specific to the 2H specialisation and come from your attacks, not the limb breaks. 
           
    So, getting a person's limbs to the Resto-cure point does not afflict with anything other than the damagedlimb status, right? That comes from fractures? 

    For example, Druid mauls targeting limbs only gets them to Resto-cure point (i.e. no afflictions like nausea or clumsiness or lethargy or whatever). Unless, the specific ability states otherwise, this can be assumed true?

    (I also play a Druid, hence the frequent reference to their attacks, but I'm new to combat in general, so I'm still learning how it all works. :D )


  • Gallida
    Gallida Member Posts: 173 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2020
    If you break a limb outside of pulverise/underhand/overhand, you'll just deliver the broken limb. If you use a sword, you'll deliver the venom on the sword and the break.

    If you do it with a weaponmastery attack, they'll get the broken limb and the fracture. With a sword, venom/fracture/break.

    If you deliver it via devastate, you'll trade fractures for two separate breaks, one on each limb. Devastating with a sword delivers the venom as well.

    The hammer trades the venom application and damage from the sword for fewer hits to break limbs. Learn to use both.
  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 905 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2020
    Just a humble opinion, but I think this level of learning is best done in game.  Not saying you have to ofc, I just think it's a better experience.

    For me at least, the learning curve is the game.
    Caelan
  • Mercer
    Mercer Member Posts: 33 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited December 2020
    Taryius more or less said this already, but a player newer to combat might be a little confused so I'm going to offer the following:

    Speed hits do 1 fracture, better health and limb damage. The recovery time on them is faster, as the name suggests.

    Precision hits do 2 fractures, less health damage and only half the limb damage. The recovery time on them is a bit slower.

    Hammers and swords both do the same amount of fracture damage. A precision hammer hit does 2, a precision sword hit does 2. Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the maximum number of fractures you can stack on a limb is 7.

    Hammers prep limbs in far fewer hits than a sword. Limb damage is not to be confused with fractures. A fracture can be healed very quickly, meaning that you have to keep the pressure strong or lose all your progress. Limb damage will stick around for quite awhile, allowing you the freedom to disengage from the fight for awhile if you need too.

    Swords allow you to add a venom with each attack. This is not an option with a hammer.

    Speed hammer preps limbs the fastest but without a venom, you'll find stacking up fractures very difficult. The more fractures a target has to a particular limb, the more often an associated affliction will relapse. Swords really let you exploit this, at the cost of much slower prep. That is the main trade off between hammers and swords.

    Strength does not affect limb damage or fractures. Strength instead influences how powerful your disembowel is. The more strength you have, the earlier you can go for your finisher. It also gives a slight bonus to your raw damage output per hit. Two hander is one of the only classes that can really go for raw damage pressure.

    Artefact hammers do NOT prep limbs in fewer hits. Artefact swords DO prep limbs in fewer hits, although only at some thresholds and possibly only with the dreadblade. That being said, if you focus on your sword you probably aren't going for prep as much and even at the fastest, a non-arty hammer is still better at prep than DB.

    Even if you focus on hammers, you'll still want to use disembowel as your finishing move because it is just objectively better, and use carve over splinter.

    People will tell you to learn both sword and hammer. That is fine. But realistically, you'll be using one or the other almost all the time. Trying to mix and match during fights is, in my personal opinion, a worst-of-all-worlds situation for non-Infernal two handers. The reasons are too complex to go into, so if you don't want to take my word for it by all means try it. If you focus on hammer, use the hammer, and just use the sword to carve/impale/dsb/arc. Anything more then that, and the two styles just don't play well together (for Runewardens). I am aware that there is disagreement on this point, so as I said, test it yourself. I think you'll find that I am right.
  • Eryl
    Eryl Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Mercer said:
    Taryius more or less said this already, but a player newer to combat might be a little confused so I'm going to offer the following:

    Speed hits do 1 fracture, better health and limb damage. The recovery time on them is faster, as the name suggests.

    Precision hits do 2 fractures, less health damage and only half the limb damage. The recovery time on them is a bit slower.

    Hammers and swords both do the same amount of fracture damage. A precision hammer hit does 2, a precision sword hit does 2. Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the maximum number of fractures you can stack on a limb is 7.

    Hammers prep limbs in far fewer hits than a sword. Limb damage is not to be confused with fractures. A fracture can be healed very quickly, meaning that you have to keep the pressure strong or lose all your progress. Limb damage will stick around for quite awhile, allowing you the freedom to disengage from the fight for awhile if you need too.

    Fracture are cured by applying health elixir to your limbs; this means you have to choose between sipping health and curing a fracture. This is how you build your fractures: damage pressure.

    Swords allow you to add a venom with each attack. This is not an option with a hammer.

    Swords also carry the benefit of having higher damage and to-hit stats.

    Speed hammer preps limbs the fastest but without a venom, you'll find stacking up fractures very difficult. The more fractures a target has to a particular limb, the more often an associated affliction will relapse. Swords really let you exploit this, at the cost of much slower prep. That is the main trade off between hammers and swords.

    This is not exactly accurate. The venom from the sword has nothing to do with building fractures. The venom on the sword allows the relapsing afflictions from the fractures to stick.  This is why you end up with clumsiness, sensitivity, lethargy, etc. stuck on you against a two-hander wielding a sword but will not feel those things nearly as badly when fighting a hammer.

    Strength does not affect limb damage or fractures. Strength instead influences how powerful your disembowel is. The more strength you have, the earlier you can go for your finisher. It also gives a slight bonus to your raw damage output per hit. Two hander is one of the only classes that can really go for raw damage pressure.

    Strength also affects the health damage your sword and hammers. As mentioned above, HEALTH PRESSURE (not afflictions) is how you stack your fractures.  If you don't do enough damage, I'll just cure the fractures and regen the health over time.

    Artefact hammers do NOT prep limbs in fewer hits. Artefact swords DO prep limbs in fewer hits, although only at some thresholds and possibly only with the dreadblade. That being said, if you focus on your sword you probably aren't going for prep as much and even at the fastest, a non-arty hammer is still better at prep than DB.

    I do not have evidence for this, but this should not at all be the case. I can't reasonably think that there are not at least a few health thresholds in which upgrading your hammer will not break in fewer hits. Regardless of that, upgrading your hammer WILL CERTAINLY increase your limb damage.  I feel the argument here is that upgrading your hammer may not reduce breakpoints, even though it is increasing the limb damageAgain, I can't imagine there are no cases in which the increased limb damage would not change a breakpoint.

    More importantly, if you are mixing hammer and sword hits, if you upgrade your hammer, you will notice that you may take fewer sword hits to break now.  That's because even though the increase limb damage from your hammer may not be reducing the count points, it's still increasing the limb damage.

    Limb damage (with outliers, but knight is not one of them) is a formula, not a number of hits.  Messing with the damage changes that formula, causing an increase or decrease in limb damage.  Think of limbs of having "health," and they break when their "health damage" reaches the max amount they can sustain.  This model works for the outliers, too.  Think of dragon.  It takes 4 hits to break a limb, always.  Well, that means dragon's rend does exactly 25% limb damage in every scenario.  The same is true for a Psion's hamstring: it will always do exactly 20% of the limb's "max health."  Bonus: This model allows you to accurately account for other peoples' hits, too.

    Even if you focus on hammers, you'll still want to use disembowel as your finishing move because it is just objectively better, and use carve over splinter.

    People will tell you to learn both sword and hammer. That is fine. But realistically, you'll be using one or the other almost all the time. Trying to mix and match during fights is, in my personal opinion, a worst-of-all-worlds situation for non-Infernal two handers. The reasons are too complex to go into, so if you don't want to take my word for it by all means try it. If you focus on hammer, use the hammer, and just use the sword to carve/impale/dsb/arc. Anything more then that, and the two styles just don't play well together (for Runewardens). I am aware that there is disagreement on this point, so as I said, test it yourself. I think you'll find that I am right.

    This is just plainly wrong.  Mixing hammer and sword is the best way to play two-handed.  The idea is to prep with a hammer using speed while building your initial health pressure, then swap to sword and hit another limb.  For instance, I'll prep the left leg to be within one sword hit of breaking.  I'll then focus on hewing the right leg while I build fracs a little.  Now, however, at any given time I can hew left speed/upset then immediately overhand the hand with precision.  Now you still have all those fracs I gave you, but I also gave you 2 head fracs even though you were parrying head.  Now I can watch for the nausea relapses.  When I know one has occured (they are on a timer that lowers with increasing numbers of fractures), I can use the nausea to bypass your head parry without having to prone you first.

    You can use this principle in other ways, too.  For instance, lots of people will say go for a 6 frac leg devastate into two dsbs.  Why now prep the torso with a hammer break it at 4 leg fracs, then score a 100% health dsb off the torso damage and two broken legs?  Bet they won't expect that.

    Two-handed is indeed very straight forward, however there is still a lot of room for creativity!
    Replied with some clarifying information!
    Aiwendil
  • Eryl
    Eryl Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Shecks said:
    Just a humble opinion, but I think this level of learning is best done in game.  Not saying you have to ofc, I just think it's a better experience.

    For me at least, the learning curve is the game.
    Experiences are deeply personal, and there are tons of people who play this game in weird time zones where they legitimately cannot access people who can teach them these things.

    This is why you have high-level combatants give run-downs from time to time without preaching that everything needs to be IC.  Because not everything can be done IC.

    When people come to forums with these sorts of bigger-picture questions, I'd rather assume that they did make an honest effort to find the information in the game, but couldn't.
    SobriquetShirszaeNhakraAiwendil
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