Siren Stigma - Is it Really a Thing?

Betony · May 2020

Hey all! Still fairly new here, if this is a weird topic I apologize.

At a glance Sirens on Achaea look to me less like the shipwreck-inducing entities from Greek mythology and more like alluring demon humans who can and do use their appearances to accomplish their and their cities' goals, which sounds like it could work into various parts of the game in some pretty fascinating ways - a Mhaldorian siren charming their way through spying and information gathering, for example, strikes me as a cool concept. Hell, even a painfully humorless Siren who goes out of her way to subvert the expectations in character - dressing very modestly, desiring a wholesome life in Targossas or something - seems like it would be an interesting thing to explore. The Siren race interests me from a thematic standpoint, I guess. I think there could be loads of options for them, even if it solely came down to subverting the (IC, hopefully!) expectations one might have when encountering one.

After skimming the forum here a bit, though, totally uneasy about playing one. Is it a thing that if you create a Siren you're pretty much assumed to be seeking mudsex and will be pursued for it kind of relentlessly? I don't mind being propositioned and shooting it down as a roleplay interaction - that sounds like it would be pretty expected - but from the perspective of those who have played Achaea for a long time: When you see a Siren, are you thinking "oh great, another mudsex alt"? Is it generally tougher for players who play Sirens to be taken seriously by the players behind the characters when trying to advance normally through city ranks, houses, or clans?

When I did create one I got some (Creepy? Normal? Unsure) tells pretty swiftly. Nothing terribly profane, just remarking on what a "pretty little slave" she was or asking to dress her (I think they meant shopping; pretended I didn't see the tell so never found out) by folks who so far outranked the character that due to the theme of the city telling them to get bent was absolutely not a viable option. As we had never interacted IC before, it had the air of being more of an OOC expectation that I was asking for it by choosing the race. That's what led me to start poking around here for overall sentiments, and it seems to get mentioned a lot as sort of an underlying joke - that people who play Siren characters are requesting mudsex opportunities.

I guess at the end of the day what I'm wondering is: What do you think when you see a Siren character? Is it an automatic assumption they created the character for mudsex? Do you personally find it harder to take the characters seriously/feel disinclined to bother with them when they're part of your cities?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on the matter!

(As a side note - Truly not trying to look down my nose at people who may or may not use Siren characters or any other character for these purposes, just trying to figure out if the OOC stigma is as strong as it seems. Basically, if you're not into the mudsex side of things, is it worth it to try a Siren, or will it be a fairly constant barrier to normal play on an OOC level?)

Kresslack · May 2020

I think it depends entirely on how you present the character. There's a lot to be said for first impressions, and it's usually very easy to spot the ones that are just here for cheap text thrills as they will typically be either dressed appropriately for that sort of thing (if at all) or will be standing around near Minia.

Your character's persona as well will also be a great way to distance and distinguish yourself from the other sort. Siren are absolutely a viable character path. There have been a few that I've seen that used the Siren lore to explain their sense of ambition and sometimes even ruthlessness and cunning.

Play the character you think will be most fun for you, and don't worry to much about whatever stigma there may be regarding Sirens.

Betony · May 2020

Kresslack said:

There have been a few that I've seen that used the Siren lore to explain their sense of ambition and sometimes even ruthlessness and cunning.

I love that; it's exactly the awesome I'd like to attempt.

I'm probably being kind of dramatic, honestly. As long as there's no especial difficulty being taken seriously or being embraced as a legitimate character overall I'm all good. Thanks for the response, too!

Big Papa Jomi · May 2020

Exactly as Kresslack says. Most of us don't assume Siren characters are sexalts until evidence points to the contrary, and there are many Siren characters that are taken seriously. It's mostly just a meme.

On a more serious note, however, those sorts of tells are really not cool for a new character to get but is, unfortunately, what some people in Achaea like to send. If you made a Mhaldorian Siren and received those sorts of tells from anyone in Mhaldor (or from any other city, really, but especially Mhaldor), feel free to send me (character name Jomi) or another person in Mhaldor (do CW and pick likely anyone above rank 3) a message or a tell. IC, we don't tolerate harassment and OOC, we don't tolerate harassment. Period. We will deal with it IC and, if it continues even after that, we'll help you through issuing the guilty party for harassment and not leaving you be.

Saonji · May 2020

Betony said:

I guess at the end of the day what I'm wondering is: What do you think when you see a Siren character? Is it an automatic assumption they created the character for mudsex? Do you personally find it harder to take the characters seriously/feel disinclined to bother with them when they're part of your cities?

Their description tells a lot about their ... Intentions, generally. More particularly, the type of words they tend to use when describing things. As well as the manner in which they're described.

Betony · May 2020

Big Papa Jomi said:

Exactly as Kresslack says. Most of us don't assume Siren characters are sexalts until evidence points to the contrary, and there are many Siren characters that are taken seriously. It's mostly just a meme.

On a more serious note, however, those sorts of tells are really not cool for a new character to get but is, unfortunately, what some people in Achaea like to send. If you made a Mhaldorian Siren and received those sorts of tells from anyone in Mhaldor (or from any other city, really, but especially Mhaldor), feel free to send me (character name Jomi) or another person in Mhaldor (do CW and pick likely anyone above rank 3) a message or a tell. IC, we don't tolerate harassment and OOC, we don't tolerate harassment. Period. We will deal with it IC and, if it continues even after that, we'll help you through issuing the guilty party for harassment and not leaving you be.

Ah, thanks a lot. It's good to know there's a support network for stuff like that if it gets persistent. To be fair to them, I didn't tell them to back off - they weren't given the opportunity to respect a boundary because I didn't establish one, I just pretended I didn't see it and stopped logging into that character. This was partially an IC thing, of course - not a wise move to get mouthy with a superior - but I could have easily used the little double-backslash thing in a return tell and told them I wasn't interested on an OOC level. Chose not to, avoided instead. For all I know they would have cut it out immediately.

All the same, it's a big relief to know it's not something that's tolerated. Appreciated.

Rhivona · May 2020

Big Papa Jomi said:

Exactly as Kresslack says. Most of us don't assume Siren characters are sexalts until evidence points to the contrary, and there are many Siren characters that are taken seriously. It's mostly just a meme.

On a more serious note, however, those sorts of tells are really not cool for a new character to get but is, unfortunately, what some people in Achaea like to send. If you made a Mhaldorian Siren and received those sorts of tells from anyone in Mhaldor (or from any other city, really, but especially Mhaldor), feel free to send me (character name Jomi) or another person in Mhaldor (do CW and pick likely anyone above rank 3) a message or a tell. IC, we don't tolerate harassment and OOC, we don't tolerate harassment. Period. We will deal with it IC and, if it continues even after that, we'll help you through issuing the guilty party for harassment and not leaving you be.

Adding to this, we (naturally) also do not tolerate harassment (see HELP HARASSMENT).
Our stance on this is pretty well clarified in that help file, as are a few courses of action.

Rackham · May 2020

I'm torn on this thread, between the seriousness of people targetting new players in a way that disgusts me, and how hilarious it is that certain aspects of a race have become stereotyped. That's literally racist, AND sexist, AND so many other things that I can't help but feel a strong sense of satire here (not satyr).

It's kindve a trope here. Whenever somebody decides to make a strumpet, it's a redheaded siren. You could throw a rock from any city's wall and hit one, I guarantee it. That being said, I've seen strumpets of just about any race and hair color, and really I'm just taking bets on whether the next is going to be horkval or tash'la. Come on you pervs, get creative out there, I'm getting bored, you're all cookie cutter.

Be a ball buster. Or go intrinsic siren, lead them on for 12 seconds and then blackmail them, or call them out for the sleazebags they are. Because they KNOW they're being a sleazebag, and are just hoping you DON'T point it out.

And in the longshot chance that you've done all of this and they still actually harass you, yeah, feel free to take it into OOC means like Rhivona said. Or ya know, find your local upstanding gents and sick them on the poor shmuck who thought that was all ok.

Armali · May 2020

It has really great stats for any int class and any class that doesn't need strength or dex.

Iocun · May 2020

There are a lot of siren characters and most of them aren't mudsex-alts, but perfectly fine characters.

Just because many (or most) mudsex alts happen to be sirens, doesn't mean the reverse is true as well and I don't think the majority of the playerbase thinks so either. You should be perfectly fine playing a siren.

It's true of course: playing as one may make it more likely to get lewd/inappropriate interactions from some people than if you played a grook or horkval. But as Jomi said: don't accept that. At all. Put them on ignore, report them to their IC superiors, report them to the admins. Don't feel the need to hesitate on that account.

People who you haven't established close relations with shouldn't be making sexual comments to you, even if you never explicitly "established a boundary". The boundary should be there by default.

Skye · May 2020

It's not just Sirens, believe me. Some of these creepers will go after anything that chooses female gender. The important thing to remember is that you're not obligated to play along with these creeps even if they're from the same city or appear to be a superior in rank. I'm guessing you're Mhaldorian since you mentioned 'slave'. I can tell you that your new Tyrannus is a fierce Queen with an iron fists that crushes balls like grapes so don't be afraid to speak up.

You should never feel like you have to take it even if they appear to be acting in an 'in-character' way or are just appearing to be 'friendly', in that same way a guy at a bar seems 'friendly' until you tell him go away and then he starts hurling obscenities at you. Yeah, you know the type and they exist everywhere, sadly.

In as far as things go with the people who do matter, the most important thing is the way you carry yourself. So long as you behave like a person, not a walking sex symbol stereotype (and yes there are some who do that. It's very tragic to watch), nobody is going to bat an eye about race.

And description wise... Some of us have been playing a really long time and we've seen it all. Some of it we wish we'd never seen. Play any race you want, just remember that what sets you apart isn't gonna be those almond-shaped eyes and breasts like melons/oranges/cantaloupes or any of the things that a hundred other sirens have used before you. Sirens are beautiful by default, move beyond that.

Saonji · May 2020

Skye said:

And description wise... Some of us have been playing a really long time and we've seen it all. Some of it we wish we'd never seen. Play any race you want, just remember that what sets you apart isn't gonna be those almond-shaped eyes and breasts like melons/oranges/cantaloupes or any of the things that a hundred other sirens have used before you. Sirens are beautiful by default, move beyond that.

Go for almond-shaped breasts and eyes like cantaloupes.

Mathonwy · May 2020

It's usually pretty easy to tell which are in it for real and which are there for more unsavory purposes - how they walk, how they talk, the kind of thought they put into their characters. Description is usually the first test - how much time do they (badly) put into describing things that appeal to the prurient interest? (You'd be surprised.)

Echoing @Skye above, @Stheno would not put up with those kind of shenanigans (and plays a siren herself, as do a few other notables in other cities like @Lyndee, @Tesha and @Ada), nor would our admin, so feel free to craft the storyline that's most compelling to you.

Saonji · May 2020

Just be this kinda Siren instead

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5019940/uploads/editor/nx/kaysxxnu8yk3.png

Naoko · May 2020

Siren player here. From my personal experience, you're absolutely always going to get people who test you to see whether or not you're in it for the MUDsex. Some do it delicately with some fun flirting, and some are unfortunately just going to be gross about it. Most everyone else has always been respectful and treated me like any other person. Establish yourself as a character and most of the creeps vanish into thin air. For everyone else, a simple "no thanks" will suffice. If they push, contact someone above them.