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Suggestion: First Class Skill

Adrik
Adrik Member Posts: 738 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
edited February 2020 in The Golden Dais of Creation
So I know what you're thinking. "RAHHHHHHHH ANOTHER SUGGESTION / RANT THREAD!"

I come with a semi-decent idea in my mind, and am open to criticism.

What if we made the first class slot.. free. Based on Attainment. You hit level 80 (or 70, or whatever), and you get completely tri-trans in that first slot. Always.

This solves a number of issues, also in helping novices get a leg-up in the world. It also solves the problem of factional classes (at.. least in the first slot. Being able to recoup the lesson investment if your class is fucked over by factional should probably be baseline, but whatever).

So, you might be wondering.

"Gee Adrik, how are we going to still make money off of lesson packages / New Play Lesson Package?"

1 ) You shift the initial cost of lessons from that first class down the tree some. Your second class is more expensive than it is now. Your third is more expensive still, etc. You're basically allocating those lessons from the first class slot onto things that are optional for the player to take.

The first class slot should be the baseline expectation, and it falls within typical MMO-Faire. You play, your first class gets stronger as you level up until tri-trans. The New Player Lesson Package can then be spent on other things, such as.. Vision, Tattoos, Miniskills, Probably raising Avoidance, etc.

It's not a great solution, but I am completely up for actual constructive criticism or feedback.


EDIT: This also has the upside of letting people actually test-trial classes (without arties) to see if they actually want to play as said class. Useful. Probably only allow people to change their 1st slot class every 3~4 days, but let them revert to their previous class with a 4 hour grace period for free if their new one isn't to their liking.
ShirszaeEllyna

Comments

  • Caelan
    Caelan Member Posts: 2,783 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    "The first class is already the best deal around. We cannot make it better than that" - The Management

    Sorry..  the other thread has me more cynical than normal. I think Skye already mentioned this in the other thread and it is a good idea.

    Thaisen
  • Skye
    Skye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,171 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I did? >_>


  • Telinus
    Telinus Member Posts: 337 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I mentioned it in the one about the IRE Elite - first class you get from rebirth is free and trans's at 80 - if you change class then you have to learn the new class as normal. Someone else may have mentioned it too.
  • Minifie
    Minifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I wish those on Iron elite got class 1 for free, as long as they are subbed they get a "membership" class, that is tri-trans. You MEMBERSHIP CLASS <class>, and can only change it once per RL month. Then, class 1 you use for lessons is still class 1, 1746 etc but you have a guaranteed baked in freebie.
  • Iaxus
    Iaxus Member Posts: 361 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Curious if this would level all trees simultaneously or hit trans on one, start the next, all trans by 80. If all simultaneously, you'll have some laughably late "required" skills (and raise/keep the entry to combat to min-80), if one at a time you'd have to rework some classes tree order to make sure that the bashing based skills max first. I like the idea and think it would help significantly, though.

    Jumpy said:
    The membership is already such a good deal that there is no way we can reduce the cost. 

  • Cooper
    Cooper Member Posts: 5,798 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Something like that would come with a rearranging of when you get what ability in each skill.

  • Caelan
    Caelan Member Posts: 2,783 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Skye said:
    I did? >_>

    Someone did. I thought it was you, but Telinus claimed credit for it anyway :D

  • Maajida
    Maajida Member Posts: 48 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Do this, tie it to your connection with a city or a house, but don't push costs onto other slots. It's already so expensive. I really wish I could try the class out as I could in other IRE games ( Please just steal arena classpick already).

    Though without houses utilizing any sort of class identity, it doesn't make sense to tie classes to houses at all. Class identity is dead. People pick a class because it sounds cool. There's usually nothing about their class in their city or house so they either make it all up themselves or find someone who gives their identity to them.

    A simple solution would be to have admin approved clans that you could join upon leaving the novicehood, tied to a task, and they were semi-democratic. Ex: Task ??? : As a Blademaster, there is a group you could seek out to learn more about the history and traditions of your skills. CLANHELP BLADEMASTERS to speak to a member who caninduct you. (CLANHELP BLADEMASTERS would be the thing to pass the task)

    (Or something better)

  • Adrik
    Adrik Member Posts: 738 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    So! Now that I'm off work!

    The idea is that the person in question would be tri-trans by 80, or whatever arbitrary number is 'good'. 80 is likely the best, since it's also when you get a spike in health, or something.

    It's going to progress at the following rate.

    Full speed for Main skill (Bashing Skill), Should trans by about 40. 2/3rd speed for 2nd skill (Usually a not-pve necessary skill, but needed for PVP) will be completed at 60ish. Your final skill will be completed at 80.

    What this means is that as you level, all of these abilities will gradually grow and gain lessons, making it so that you can feasibly do things in PVP as a level 50 or 60 wanting to help out, or even 40!  You won't have access to the third skill (Bard's is Harmonics, which is not super pivotal), but you'll have SOME level of access to the skill, making it still useful if it's necessary for you to have it.

    This class slot should just be the base line, and should always be available to everyone. You can swap it out, for free, once per month. No questions asked, if you're level 100 and don't wanna be a bard anymore, you get a free swap to try out a new class!

    I wanted the lessons to be pushed over to the other class slots, because the value (at least to make it a bit more appealing on IRE's end) isn't lost. It's just shifted towards more end-game players, or people with multiple classes, rather than the average joe schmoe who might drop $25 every now-and-then.
  • Gilliam
    Gilliam Member Posts: 108 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Cooper said:
    Something like that would come with a rearranging of when you get what ability in each skill.
    We could honestly really do with this anyway.
  • Paux
    Paux Member Posts: 107 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The spirit behind this idea is good, but I don't think this is the best way to go about it. 

    ..not that I know the best way. 
    CaelanJiraishin
  • Elindor
    Elindor Member Posts: 2
    With the adventuring/renown revamp, I think we can create a solution that almost entirely leverages existing systems. Depending on how novice bound credit gain is (I'm guessing ~5 BCR/day with 1 hour engagement that flattens as they 'age' out of newbie areas?), the admin can make a consumable artifact that refunds lessons spent and sets a skill in class slot 1 to trans.  

    Having it cost like ~40/60/100 BCR for the primary/secondary/tertiary class skills means that they can be bi-trans by level 55 (a passable soldier in a raid) and tri-trans by 80; faster with high engagement with the adventuring system. Make it so the items are available for people's first month of Elite (instead of or in addition to the 100 BCR) to incentivize the service.

    For a novice at level 80 who is moderately engaged in the adventuring system and buys:
    Nothing - they can expect to be tri-trans and have a few token artifacts (like vials)
    2x no brainer lessons - they can expect to be tri-trans with trans avoidance and a ways into some tradeskills, along with having a few token artifacts
    3x no brainer - they can expect to be quad-trans with a level 1 artifact or seriously contemplating dipping their toes into the 'serious' artie pool (SoA)


  • Telinus
    Telinus Member Posts: 337 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Hi, hoping to get your input on why Achaea locks a new players class to 2 skills and Fabled,

    They also have no way to test the 3rd class abilities at all, until you embrace you can't even do AB <3rd skill>.
    For example runewarden gives access to fabled in Runelore and Weaponmastery before embracing, no access to chivalry.

    Why wont you at the very least change this to 2 skills to transcendant before embracing, and being able to activate the 3rd skill at the cost of another to get an understanding of the class? (e.g. substitute runelore for chivalry at their own choice with no limit or cost associated - chivalry for runelore, runelore back for chivalry)


    A new player has no concept of how any of the higher abilities will work, if they will like them, or if they wan to be vested in this class and RP avenue. It gets even worse if they try and move to something such as Occultism and want to know how to kill someone, or just have access to universe tarot - truename, enlighten and unravel are all well beyond fabled, let alone access to Hecate or Moon tarot.

    A new player has no idea how this class works, nor can they ever understand how it works without sacrificing 50% of their investment.

    At present it costs roughly 900cr to tri trans a class, and 400ish credits to change class. Once they have purchased the no-brainer packages for lessons and credits, you're asking them to either spend a significant amount of time grinding up 400 credits or pay $100 dollars to TRY another class. If they decide they don't enjoy THAT class, the cost goes up as they lose the bound credit bonus, suddenly its $134 dollars, again to TRY a class and see what its like.

    Why would you expect a new player to actively stick around if the majority of their class is unaccesible without grinding or spending money, and then punishes them for exploring the game and trying something different?

    I, and I think others, would really appreciate a response to this. How can you expect new players to join and stay, or for existing players to recommend the game to them, if they can't even get a grasp of a class without losing 50% of their (expensive in both time and money) investment?

    I hope the answer is that it is something you've overlooked, as opposed to pure greed.





    ShirszaeRakdosEllyna
  • Cooper
    Cooper Member Posts: 5,798 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Been asking that question for almost 20 years. Answer is Sarapis earned a lot of money from people spending credits to change class, and valued that money over player retention & happiness.

    Telinus
  • Telinus
    Telinus Member Posts: 337 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Cooper I've been asking it a lot as well, I would really appreciate an answer from any of the admin on this @Makarios @Sarapis @Jumpy @Nicola

    If I have to ask it every day I suppose I can till I get a response or pointed to an answer in another forum post.
  • Lenn
    Lenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Cooper said:
    Been asking that question for almost 20 years. Answer is Sarapis earned a lot of money from people spending credits to change class, and valued that money over player retention & happiness.
    It's a clever and diabolical strategy.

    Constantly make small changes that gradually make people rethink their class.

    But it doubles as constant progress and development, so it's a good thing!
  • Adrik
    Adrik Member Posts: 738 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Small issue with that is class slots. You don't get an extra one till 80 or 90, so figuring out what class you like best takes awhile.
  • Kog
    Kog Member Posts: 349 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited February 2020
    Sell lucrescent nut effect in the MCR store, maybe? I can't imagine them giving a class slot, but price it at 2-3 MCR per day and people can tri-trans with membership for the month while stashing a little for progression.

    I also like the arena practice mode idea a lot.
  • Telinus
    Telinus Member Posts: 337 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Hey @Nicola @Sarapis @Jumpy @Makarios just wanted to check in with you to see if:

    A) Have seen my post
    B) If you will answer it
    C) See if I can post every day till you do

    Thanks!
  • Issam
    Issam Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 223 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I know you want a response, but please don't do this, not only does it break the forums rules (12) but it risks creating a situation where the policy becomes to absolutely NOT respond via forums, since other people may feel compelled to demand an answer if they acquiesce to yours.

    Cooper
  • Telinus
    Telinus Member Posts: 337 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Issam said:
    I know you want a response, but please don't do this, not only does it break the forums rules (12) but it risks creating a situation where the policy becomes to absolutely NOT respond via forums, since other people may feel compelled to demand an answer if they acquiesce to yours.

    Quite right, Issam - my apologies. I forgot to check the rules before posting. I will instead email them. I figured as they were currently responding to a series of posts related to similar topics they may want to take the opportunity to reach out and respond on this topic too.
  • Doriel
    Doriel Member Posts: 156 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Telinus said:
    Issam said:
    I know you want a response, but please don't do this, not only does it break the forums rules (12) but it risks creating a situation where the policy becomes to absolutely NOT respond via forums, since other people may feel compelled to demand an answer if they acquiesce to yours.

    Quite right, Issam - my apologies. I forgot to check the rules before posting. I will instead email them. I figured as they were currently responding to a series of posts related to similar topics they may want to take the opportunity to reach out and respond on this topic too.
    Even without it being against the rules, spam @ing people is just rude, and they’ve been tagged multiple times in this thread already
  • Adrik
    Adrik Member Posts: 738 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    So, I woke up to some fantastic news!

    Does this realistically answer all the problems I initially had? Well, no. Of course not.

    Does it let people actually try their class before they commit? Yep!

    I'll take what i can get on this one.

    Thanks Mak!
    EllynaAtalkezRakdosUtianima
  • Atalkez
    Atalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,505 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    BM still needs to have Shindo swapped with Striking pre-embrace class!




    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • Adrik
    Adrik Member Posts: 738 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Wait... Do they not get their third skill in the arena?
  • Rackham
    Rackham Member Posts: 248 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Atalkez said:
    BM still needs to have Shindo swapped with Striking pre-embrace class!

    Disagree, but then again, I learned blademaster basics from all your forum posts on the matter sooooooo gunna go sit in the corner and rethink things.
  • Shirszae
    Shirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,518 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I mean both are as important to get a sense of the class and should be available in. Shindo just has most of the fun utility stuff as well as key survival abilities. 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Rackham
    Rackham Member Posts: 248 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    No I get that, shindo is important and full of utility. But if I had to oversimplify an explanation of the class, it would be 'break legs and prone for kill'. I'm not saying that's all it does, but that's the bread and butter of 1v1 kills, and even group combat can be accessed through balanceslash and some strikes. Again, not undervaluing shindo and the great stuff it's got, just saying that the only weird thing about it, is not being able to use elemental fists without shin trance. Aside from that, you can get a pretty good idea of the class through striking and twoarts.
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