What is your concept for Achaea?

Asmodron

One exercise I enjoy doing/seeing is thinking over concepts in Achaea. Basically, if you could mold Achaea to a new concept or enhance a mechanic, what would be some differences and changes? You can even suggest what you think the game could have been designed to.

I usually find an exercise like this pops up some pretty neat ideas that at times aren't too impossible.

Some general notes before we begin:

1. Criticism is fine and expected, but be sure to know where to draw the line. Please do not attack others for their ideas or suggestions. These are just fun concepts.

2. Keep it clean.

3. Make sure you give some logical explanation to your suggestion. Simply saying "Delete X" isnt very creative.

4. This is more about mechanics and story, rather than business models.

5. Have fun

Jovolo

Teleport us back to 2010-2013 before affliction trackers were commonplace and there were more people playing. Perfect

Archaeon

Jovolo said:

Teleport us back to 2010-2013 before affliction trackers were commonplace and there were more people playing. Perfect

No thanks, I don't like being griefed so hard my city gets nuked. 

Ererean

Archaeon said:

Jovolo said:

Teleport us back to 2010-2013 before affliction trackers were commonplace and there were more people playing. Perfect

No thanks, I don't like being griefed so hard my city gets nuked. 

Wait, there were nukes in the game?

Keorin

Achaea, but where instead of nuking half the game's lore in the Ren, and then leaving players to struggle to construct new identities for houses from scratch for the next several years, there were more measured changes to get the old houses more ready for multiclass, with the less functional ones getting reformed or replaced instead of losing -everything-.

Asmodron

I guess i'll give one of my concepts:

War mechanics focused on the cultivation of armies in each city (NPCs). These armies require resources and gold to be fielded. Naturally the larger the army, the more formidable you would be, however the higher the costs.

War zones will be located within Achaea where cities are contesting for territory and resources.

The number of troops (and which kind) can be selected to go to each zone. While sending all your troops to one zone would be a larger offensive move, it would also put your other zones and city at risk of attack.

Cities may also declare war upon one another and attempt to enact sieges which would carry on for several days, of which NPC troops would attempt to attack and the defending NPC troops would attempt to bolster defenses.

While player presence -can- contribute to the offensive/defensive might of a force, it is a small addition compared to troop numbers.

Minifie

Only if we can use @Skye's food specifically to bolster our armies, then have them all go to war specifically to ensure her culinary expertise only belongs to one city.

Asmodron

Minifie said:

Only if we can use @Skye's food specifically to bolster our armies, then have them all go to war specifically to ensure her culinary expertise only belongs to one city.

Wasnt that the drive behind her flooding Cyrene? A powerful lesson to be remembered.

Iaxus

Asmodron said:

War mechanics focused on the cultivation of armies in each city (NPCs). These armies require resources and gold to be fielded. Naturally the larger the army, the more formidable you would be, however the higher the costs. 

Finally, a much needed use for wood!

Thaisen

Mhaldorian armies take snacks of WOOD with them to war? Or are you thinking...wooden weapons?

Minifie

A mhaldorian soldier carrying supplies to the frontline (colourized).

Ererean

Minifie said:

A mhaldorian soldier carrying supplies to the frontline (colourized).

How did you find my pet raccoon

Zenui

Incorporation of polearms into Weaponmastery for Knight classes. Arguably, this should already be an option for Two-Handed specialization but I don't know enough on that front to say for sure. Mostly I just want bardiches/halberds to get some love.

Asmodron

Some may not know this but Priest in its earliest of incarnations wasnt based on the Light, but rather on the Divine and devotion. I'd have loved to have seen that kept as is and then a unique trait given to priests for each of the cities.

Vakvyr

Zenui said:

Incorporation of polearms into Weaponmastery for Knight classes. Arguably, this should already be an option for Two-Handed specialization but I don't know enough on that front to say for sure. Mostly I just want bardiches/halberds to get some love.

Oh wow. I didn't realize I wanted that. Should have been polearm instead of warhammer. That said the blunt weapon for limb damage makes sense. Was going to say you could make a blunt polearm but it turns out that's really just a staff, which are lame and used by lame classes.

Zenui

Another one: Meropis has a Flame and part of the World Tree, but Yggdrasil isn't accessible from there like it is for the Flame on Sapience. I gather this is justified on lore grounds--Taug entered Yggdrasil through the Sapience flame--but it seems like a missed opportunity. (Mechanically, I suppose it risks making Meropis too easily accessible.)

Coelano

Zenui said:

Another one: Meropis has a Flame and part of the World Tree, but Yggdrasil isn't accessible from there like it is for the Flame on Sapience. I gather this is justified on lore grounds--Taug entered Yggdrasil through the Sapience flame--but it seems like a missed opportunity. (Mechanically, I suppose it risks making Meropis too easily accessible.)

Hi there! One should never expect to learn all the secrets of Achaea lore from outside the game, as they are really things much better discovered or theorised on IC. The full nature of Yggdrasil's function is one of them, and it is something that has been deliberately painted as a subject of much speculation by plane-aware scholars. Even Gods won't know everything about it!

But as I am nice, for the curious and inquisitive, there are absolutely reasons for exactly why players reach Yggdrasil through the Sapience outlet of the Flame and not outlets found on the other Achaean continents. These reasons are not related to Pazuzu, although a certain professor from another world might have some theories!

If players are quick enough to dodge his cane, that is.

Gilliam

I would really like every city to be some form of theocracy. Let the players steer but the admin keep us on course a little more. Over the years I feel like I've seen many instances of player and admin frustration with one another just due to lack of communication and collaboration.

Always thought it'd be cool to be able to specialise into one of our class's three skills to enhance or modify how they work. Pick Runelore and sketch runes on stones so you can throw them into adjacent rooms. Pick Necromancy and turn your enemy's corpse into a loyal that has attacks based on the class they were using. Imagine either of those was, or could be, remotely balanced. But it'd be cool.

Also there are 169 afflictions discounting insomnia, blindness, deafness and deepsleep(which im pretty sure only exists from when Pandora gave it in the Borak thing) That's a lot of afflictions. I know the quantity is central to what combat is, but I'd still really like to experience a more simplified list of these, call it curiosity. I think group combat in particular would benefit because it would make synergising with your team more vital but also more approachable for people who can't won't or don't track what their team is afflicting with. Currently there is a lot of "Keep doing this while I keep doing this and when they line up right, it'll work!"

Iaxus

Gilliam said:

Also there are 169 afflictions discounting insomnia, blindness, deafness and deepsleep(which im pretty sure only exists from when Pandora gave it in the Borak thing) That's a lot of afflictions. I know the quantity is central to what combat is, but I'd still really like to experience a more simplified list of these, call it curiosity. I think group combat in particular would benefit because it would make synergising with your team more vital but also more approachable for people who can't won't or don't track what their team is afflicting with. Currently there is a lot of "Keep doing this while I keep doing this and when they line up right, it'll work!"

I've done both sides of the team afflicting thing. I've had fully written aff trackers that can perfectly follow teammate afflicting, and I've done the "I'm just going to rend+imp / doublewhirl until we get 'em" and I honestly think it's more efficient in group combat to just hit what you hit and do some damage. Being a serpent in non-small group (so greater than 4 or so) isn't nearly as effective as going dragon, for instance, unless you're sniping. Complex afflictions systems are geared towards 1v1 or 2v2, and if you're trying to coordinate affs with a group of 10 I feel you're missing the point.

Armali

When @Cecelia was still around, I put her a few times on off-targeting high priority targets that we just didn't have time to get to. There was a very memorable (to me) fight with Ashtan where that worked beautifully. That's where I see the value of a serpent in a large group fight. Leave 'em locked and forget about them, if possible.

Profit

I want a class built solely around infiltration, sneaking, theft, deceit, and sabotage.

Every class in Achaea is built around being balanced in combat. There are other valid avenues for creating conflict. What if we said, "Forget combat viability, let's give this class tools to do something else."

Rackham

Profit said:

I want a class built solely around infiltration, sneaking, theft, deceit, and sabotage.

Every class in Achaea is built around being balanced in combat. There are other valid avenues for creating conflict. What if we said, "Forget combat viability, let's give this class tools to do something else."

Make theft a tradeskill instead of locking it behind serpent, and then give serpent other things. Maybe people would be more open to theft if they could pick it up as easy as cooking or gathering.

Keorin

Profit said:

I want a class built solely around infiltration, sneaking, theft, deceit, and sabotage.

Every class in Achaea is built around being balanced in combat. There are other valid avenues for creating conflict. What if we said, "Forget combat viability, let's give this class tools to do something else."

I don't know why this would even need to be mutually exclusive. I've always thought it's pretty silly that (post tradeskill split) basically every class skill is -solely- combat focused, when the average player doesn't focus on combat. Why not focus on giving every class more out of combat uses and utility?

Cooper

Keorin said:

Profit said:

I want a class built solely around infiltration, sneaking, theft, deceit, and sabotage.

Every class in Achaea is built around being balanced in combat. There are other valid avenues for creating conflict. What if we said, "Forget combat viability, let's give this class tools to do something else."

I don't know why this would even need to be mutually exclusive. I've always thought it's pretty silly that (post tradeskill split) basically every class skill is -solely- combat focused, when the average player doesn't focus on combat. Why not focus on giving every class more out of combat uses and utility?

Are we playing different games? Pretty much every class has abilities that are useful outside of PK and are utility abilities.

They can't give every class more utility because that's how they've made the majority of their money - talismans. If you can figure out a way to keep their revenue up while implementing this I'm sure IRE would be very interested! 

Jovolo

Yeah I do not understand this complaint at all, you could go through every class in the game and almost every single one will have a plethora of abilities that can be used outside of combat. 

A class that is completely dedicated to utility is another thing altogether.

Shirszae

That's not really true. Most classes have one or two utility abilities as a rule and that's about it. 

Ygia

I'd like some more ways for RP to have a purpose.

Spoilered blab ahead, conclusion beneath:

As it stands, if you don't fight /ever/, you're kinda just a second class citizen by default unless you're also an established, well-known preacher or something equivalent. Now, you could argue that it's the developmental ministries and cultural ministries jobs to organise this stuff, but because it's not, ah... 'game-ified', or supported by staff in any constant visible means like actual fighting is, anything that involves words sort of carries with it the vibe of "this is a waste of time". I notice a lot of people not really caring about anything storywise - the world could be literally rent apart into two barely tethered chunks by Babel and the very next hour in game, Eleusis would be raided by Mhaldor as if the world didn't just end, because outside of brief lore points, words carry no weight with them whatsoever. 
I don't know specifically what - perhaps this is just my disenfranchised view as a citizen of a city without active Divine, and for those in cities with them, they get plenty of storytelling done and everything is always hunky dory. For the more developed cities, I know there's quite a few 'behind the scenes' areas where story is ripe for the taking always.
But I've noticed a pointed shift toward viewing the game less as "rp with combat", and more "combat with lore", with people speaking gameified terms ICly as though it was entirely ordinary. And it's a little confusing.
A lot of the more recent 'this isn't 100% combat' stuff has either been a subtle means of allowing free-for-all combat or locked behind a great deal of money, too. Your average player can't just hop on a ship any time they please and sail it around the oceans for hidden secret islands.

I'm not quite sure how you could, at a staff level, gameify and support RP though. I know that the bardic contests happen quite frequently, but perhaps rather than a credit reward on the larger contests, there could be smaller more subtle contests that span all the cities and have different forms ("best food based on x!"), with a reward of a Truefavour from one of the more artistically inclined Divine, etcetera.

Kog

Ygia said:

I'd like some more ways for RP to have a purpose.

Spoilered blab ahead, conclusion beneath:

As it stands, if you don't fight /ever/, you're kinda just a second class citizen by default unless you're also an established, well-known preacher or something equivalent. Now, you could argue that it's the developmental ministries and cultural ministries jobs to organise this stuff, but because it's not, ah... 'game-ified', or supported by staff in any constant visible means like actual fighting is, anything that involves words sort of carries with it the vibe of "this is a waste of time". I notice a lot of people not really caring about anything storywise - the world could be literally rent apart into two barely tethered chunks by Babel and the very next hour in game, Eleusis would be raided by Mhaldor as if the world didn't just end, because outside of brief lore points, words carry no weight with them whatsoever. 
I don't know specifically what - perhaps this is just my disenfranchised view as a citizen of a city without active Divine, and for those in cities with them, they get plenty of storytelling done and everything is always hunky dory. For the more developed cities, I know there's quite a few 'behind the scenes' areas where story is ripe for the taking always.
But I've noticed a pointed shift toward viewing the game less as "rp with combat", and more "combat with lore", with people speaking gameified terms ICly as though it was entirely ordinary. And it's a little confusing.
A lot of the more recent 'this isn't 100% combat' stuff has either been a subtle means of allowing free-for-all combat or locked behind a great deal of money, too. Your average player can't just hop on a ship any time they please and sail it around the oceans for hidden secret islands.

I'm not quite sure how you could, at a staff level, gameify and support RP though. I know that the bardic contests happen quite frequently, but perhaps rather than a credit reward on the larger contests, there could be smaller more subtle contests that span all the cities and have different forms ("best food based on x!"), with a reward of a Truefavour from one of the more artistically inclined Divine, etcetera.

I've heard this a lot, from a lot of different fronts. But, I think the issue is less 'RP does not matter' and more 'combat has an immediate, codified feedback'. If you kill someone, you win. If you die, you lose. If the tank blows, if the tank gets disarmed, etc. etc. But, when you go have a scene with someone, the reward isn't quite as 'tangible'- there is no global message announcing you just had a great RP scene, and it requires people to opt in and volunteer to 'lose'...

From being a relative nobody myself, though, I can say that I think the bulk of my reputation (at least in the city) came from my RPing, not my PKing. I went to Senate meetings, gave speeches, wrote posts, and went around politicking. Does it help that I also lead PK sometimes? Sure, but that's just because it gets my name out there, and there's a 'concrete' win (or, more often, loss).

People have been talking about triggers in says for well over a decade, even though it's not really supposed to happen. If you go back further, I know of someone from the Early Days who got HR05 because they answered an X-Man trivia question over GNT. But, I've also found pockets of people willing to discuss philosophy, debate laws, and generally sink into a role rather than being all about combat, just by poking around and talking to people.

I think the 'purpose' of RP is to generate RP. The 'purpose' of combat isn't to generate more combat, though- it's to win. You can't 'win' RP, so much- the examples of people doing just that (Flair/Babel comes to mind) are legendary because of how difficult and rare it really is.

To understand your side- because I really do want to!- what sort of rewards do you find PK generating that you would want for RP?

Ygia

Kog said:

Ygia said:

I'd like some more ways for RP to have a purpose.

Spoilered blab ahead, conclusion beneath:

As it stands, if you don't fight /ever/, you're kinda just a second class citizen by default unless you're also an established, well-known preacher or something equivalent. Now, you could argue that it's the developmental ministries and cultural ministries jobs to organise this stuff, but because it's not, ah... 'game-ified', or supported by staff in any constant visible means like actual fighting is, anything that involves words sort of carries with it the vibe of "this is a waste of time". I notice a lot of people not really caring about anything storywise - the world could be literally rent apart into two barely tethered chunks by Babel and the very next hour in game, Eleusis would be raided by Mhaldor as if the world didn't just end, because outside of brief lore points, words carry no weight with them whatsoever. 
I don't know specifically what - perhaps this is just my disenfranchised view as a citizen of a city without active Divine, and for those in cities with them, they get plenty of storytelling done and everything is always hunky dory. For the more developed cities, I know there's quite a few 'behind the scenes' areas where story is ripe for the taking always.
But I've noticed a pointed shift toward viewing the game less as "rp with combat", and more "combat with lore", with people speaking gameified terms ICly as though it was entirely ordinary. And it's a little confusing.
A lot of the more recent 'this isn't 100% combat' stuff has either been a subtle means of allowing free-for-all combat or locked behind a great deal of money, too. Your average player can't just hop on a ship any time they please and sail it around the oceans for hidden secret islands.

I'm not quite sure how you could, at a staff level, gameify and support RP though. I know that the bardic contests happen quite frequently, but perhaps rather than a credit reward on the larger contests, there could be smaller more subtle contests that span all the cities and have different forms ("best food based on x!"), with a reward of a Truefavour from one of the more artistically inclined Divine, etcetera.

I've heard this a lot, from a lot of different fronts. But, I think the issue is less 'RP does not matter' and more 'combat has an immediate, codified feedback'. If you kill someone, you win. If you die, you lose. If the tank blows, if the tank gets disarmed, etc. etc. But, when you go have a scene with someone, the reward isn't quite as 'tangible'- there is no global message announcing you just had a great RP scene, and it requires people to opt in and volunteer to 'lose'...

From being a relative nobody myself, though, I can say that I think the bulk of my reputation (at least in the city) came from my RPing, not my PKing. I went to Senate meetings, gave speeches, wrote posts, and went around politicking. Does it help that I also lead PK sometimes? Sure, but that's just because it gets my name out there, and there's a 'concrete' win (or, more often, loss).

People have been talking about triggers in says for well over a decade, even though it's not really supposed to happen. If you go back further, I know of someone from the Early Days who got HR05 because they answered an X-Man trivia question over GNT. But, I've also found pockets of people willing to discuss philosophy, debate laws, and generally sink into a role rather than being all about combat, just by poking around and talking to people.

I think the 'purpose' of RP is to generate RP. The 'purpose' of combat isn't to generate more combat, though- it's to win. You can't 'win' RP, so much- the examples of people doing just that (Flair/Babel comes to mind) are legendary because of how difficult and rare it really is.

To understand your side- because I really do want to!- what sort of rewards do you find PK generating that you would want for RP?

I don't know, and that's the difficult part! I guess I'd just like there to be more of a push for it to be a thing. Some sort of game-side support that says "hey, this is a thing you should be doing". Maybe a more strict stance against players who just toss game terms around with no care for maintaining the world. An admin-side support for Divinely led stories, so that if a Divine falls out of focus like 30% of the way into a major citywide story event, it could easily be carried on or at least the pause explained away by someone taking the guise of the Divine so that people deeply deeply personally invested in the generated story aren't hanging on a thread like "Is... is this going to continue? ...No? ...I... Guess this new clan we made full of info is utterly pointless now, huh."

I guess I just want story and RP to be /valued/, more than rewarded. It feels like, at its absolute core, the Achaea team doesn't care about story or RP.

Ygia

Additionally, I'd also like if cities didn't so bluntly emphasise, "if you're not in the army you can't advance in x, everyone needs to fight" or w/e.
Just missed the window for editing to add that.
Alternatives provided would be neat. I don't mind fighting, it's just not something I want to be absolutely required.

Torinn

I need to note that RP is something that needs to be enforced -everywhere-.  it needs to be deeply ingrained in a city and all of its scrolls, regardless of if they're combat scrolls or scrolls about realms of the divine.  It's a tall order and something that is very difficult to do, but when RP and lore are everywhere people look within the city they'll do it themselves because that's the tone that is set.  As an example, Mhaldor's city scrolls, clan scrolls, etc. are ALL rp focused and it really drives home the emphasis on roleplay that the city has - And Mhaldor is nothing if not amazing at roleplay.