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Year 2020

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  • Torinn
    Torinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited December 2019
    Sartan said:
    Torinn said:
    In 2020 all I really want is -

    Putting some tools for events and storytelling in the hands of responsible city/org leaders which allows them to help flesh out the world and take some of the burden away from admins/divine!

    I have seen this a few times and I am curious what these "tools" are?

    Let's start by taking denizen manipulation off of the table. There is an entire section of training that comes with it, involving NDAs, manuals, etc. I will not even get into making sure story consistency is maintained for them.  So what seems like a minor or simple interaction to you can sometimes be a LOT more involved in the background. Not to mention the the oversight that would need, because that is a doozy all in itself.

    So what tools?

    Also let's try not to derail @Asmodron's thread too much?


    Yes, many people have brought up some great points about how things can be achieved with what already exists, and I definitely agree with many of them.  Denizen interactions, as you say, are onerous to get right and should not be on players to control.  Even so, I think there are still several things that Org leaders (House leaders, city leaders, and Order leaders) could have their hands in without much supervision that would enhance the quality of roleplay and storytelling without putting the burden on admins/Divine to do it.  

    We spoke of ritual rooms and yes they are great.  As a member of Lord Deucalion's Order, I had the privilege of experiencing one of those.  But as a prime example of what I'm attempting to express, when Lord Deucalion stopped being present the ritualism ground to a halt and it was not through a lack of trying on our part.  The room was set up to do certain things that He had begun to create (or maybe completed?  We don't know) and either it bugged so it no longer works, it was turned off, or the particular phase was completed and the next not started due to lack of attention.  It was as if it were a half-told story.  One tool I would like to see would be for Deucalion's Order Head to be able to customize what can happen in that room and change it (with approval) in the interest of continuing the story arc or seeing it to a form of completion.  A little trust needs to be given to the Order Head to not go bonkers, but someone should also be there to give the go ahead that what the Order Head is planning is appropriate.  

    Another thing that could be done is city leaders could gain the ability to create rooms or change rooms and their descriptions (within reason and with approval) in the city, and House leaders to do the same to their respective estates.  I'm sure we can all think of projects that are wanted or needed and weren't finished for whatever reason, and not through lack of effort on the player's part.  I don't know the real reason for it but I can hazard a guess that it's put on the back burner for a plethora of more important matters and is doubly so if the city doesn't have an active Patron.  Put more of the burden of writing and creating on the players themselves.

    These are the sorts of things I would like to see given player agency so the burden can be shifted a bit from the Divine/Admin to the players and an absent Patron won't cause things to grind to a halt.  Additionally, this is from the perspective of a strictly player, I have some guesses as to what goes on behind the scenes but certainly don't know for certain nor the true feasability of these suggestions.  That is all, thank you for reading :)
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    LennStefana
  • Torrent
    Torrent Member Posts: 317 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I would like to see some outside skirmishing outlets aside from shrines. Kinda like exterminations/vivification but something available to other factions. Eg. Mhaldor expanding Sartans essence, Eleusis trying to over grow the world, Hashan trying to increase the power of the Wellspring, Astan to spread Chaos, Targossas to spread light and fire and stop chaos, Cyrene for ...reasons.  :p Just be nice for some alternative conflict.
    Lenn
  • Jiraishin
    Jiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,202 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    My things I hope happen this coming year:

    1. An overhaul of Artistry

    2. Active Deuc and Rory

    3. The city items I designed to get made

    4. Shop logs

    5. Me finally finishing the 4+ things I promised to write
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."

    (Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
    TorinnAsmodron
  • Ayani
    Ayani Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2019
    My wishes for 2020:
    1. Complete my HR5 requirements
    2. Figure out a new honours quest 
    3. Find enough people to kill that blasted dreadpilar and steal her egg!

    Small goals over here! Here's to another fun year!

    Thank you to both Achaea and the players that make it special.
    JiraishinJinos
  • Darnyll
    Darnyll Member Posts: 9
    edited December 2019
    Ritualism has always been a difficult thing to get people into because the "rules" vary widely from organization to organization or even person to person. 

    My thing was always that there was no wrong answer, something might happen and if you learn, there is no failure. Just get out there and do it, hang the rules that other people make.

    Others were sticklers on circles, candles, or particular gestures. Some people even went as far as making people submit a ritual for "grading" before it could even be considered.

    It just makes it difficult to teach someone how when that how is based on personal preference, what we have seen others do, or what we have been told. We have the tools we need, but we lack the cohesion that some kind of proper canon could provide.
    Morsul
  • Sartan
    Sartan Member, Moderator Posts: 175 Immortal
    Torinn said:

    We spoke of ritual rooms and yes they are great.  As a member of Lord Deucalion's Order, I had the privilege of experiencing one of those.  But as a prime example of what I'm attempting to express, when Lord Deucalion stopped being present the ritualism ground to a halt and it was not through a lack of trying on our part.  The room was set up to do certain things that He had begun to create (or maybe completed?  We don't know) and either it bugged so it no longer works, it was turned off, or the particular phase was completed and the next not started due to lack of attention.  It was as if it were a half-told story.  One tool I would like to see would be for Deucalion's Order Head to be able to customize what can happen in that room and change it (with approval) in the interest of continuing the story arc or seeing it to a form of completion.  A little trust needs to be given to the Order Head to not go bonkers, but someone should also be there to give the go ahead that what the Order Head is planning is appropriate.  

    If this was the ritual flame, then take a look at it. It was hopefully fixed not too long ago. If not, BUG it.

    Torinn said:

    Another thing that could be done is city leaders could gain the ability to create rooms or change rooms and their descriptions (within reason and with approval) in the city, and House leaders to do the same to their respective estates.  I'm sure we can all think of projects that are wanted or needed and weren't finished for whatever reason, and not through lack of effort on the player's part.  I don't know the real reason for it but I can hazard a guess that it's put on the back burner for a plethora of more important matters and is doubly so if the city doesn't have an active Patron.  Put more of the burden of writing and creating on the players themselves.
    This is exactly what patron requests are for. HELP PATRON REQUESTS outlines everything for those not familiar with them. Plus with the modifications that Ictinus and Nicola outlined earlier this month, it is even easier for city/house leaders to make requests and get feedback on the things they want to do. There is also [email protected] that handles event ideas and assistance requests. Let me also add that if you are doing an event and need some extra help with creation of something, speaking to your patron (where RP appropriate) or patron denizen directly is also an option. I can think of a number of people who reached out to the garden for assistance for their events and we were more than happy to assist.

    LennTorinnYsela
  • Asmodron
    Asmodron Member Posts: 3,145 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ritualism is a bit tricky to explain IC. Some of us have a lot of experience with it and usually my explanation to others consists of:

    1. Know your symbols, whether alchemical or otherwise, and know what they represent.

    2. Get a catalyst/fuel if it is big, you cant depend on just your power alone.

    3. Never emote or illusion an outcome (unless it is just for RP fun), because that gets weird. What you want to do is emote/illusion the actions you are doing.

    4. An admin isnt always watching nor has the tools on hand for the outcome you desire. If nothing happens, simply go along with it. The ritual failed? Not enough of a catalyst? No response? etc.

    5. If you want something to happen then try to buildup to it. Inquire with a mob of the city. Talk on CT about it. Someone will eventually take note.
  • Torinn
    Torinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited December 2019
    Sartan said:
    Torinn said:

    We spoke of ritual rooms and yes they are great.  As a member of Lord Deucalion's Order, I had the privilege of experiencing one of those.  But as a prime example of what I'm attempting to express, when Lord Deucalion stopped being present the ritualism ground to a halt and it was not through a lack of trying on our part.  The room was set up to do certain things that He had begun to create (or maybe completed?  We don't know) and either it bugged so it no longer works, it was turned off, or the particular phase was completed and the next not started due to lack of attention.  It was as if it were a half-told story.  One tool I would like to see would be for Deucalion's Order Head to be able to customize what can happen in that room and change it (with approval) in the interest of continuing the story arc or seeing it to a form of completion.  A little trust needs to be given to the Order Head to not go bonkers, but someone should also be there to give the go ahead that what the Order Head is planning is appropriate.  

    If this was the ritual flame, then take a look at it. It was hopefully fixed not too long ago. If not, BUG it.

    Torinn said:

    Another thing that could be done is city leaders could gain the ability to create rooms or change rooms and their descriptions (within reason and with approval) in the city, and House leaders to do the same to their respective estates.  I'm sure we can all think of projects that are wanted or needed and weren't finished for whatever reason, and not through lack of effort on the player's part.  I don't know the real reason for it but I can hazard a guess that it's put on the back burner for a plethora of more important matters and is doubly so if the city doesn't have an active Patron.  Put more of the burden of writing and creating on the players themselves.
    This is exactly what patron requests are for. HELP PATRON REQUESTS outlines everything for those not familiar with them. Plus with the modifications that Ictinus and Nicola outlined earlier this month, it is even easier for city/house leaders to make requests and get feedback on the things they want to do. There is also [email protected] that handles event ideas and assistance requests. Let me also add that if you are doing an event and need some extra help with creation of something, speaking to your patron (where RP appropriate) or patron denizen directly is also an option. I can think of a number of people who reached out to the garden for assistance for their events and we were more than happy to assist.

    Alright so what you're saying is it already exists and people who want to progress org storylines just need to write it up and submit it which is awesome.  What if the players could also do some of the coding or events behind it so the admins/divine didn't have to find time to do it?
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • Phaestus
    Phaestus Member, Moderator Posts: 149 Immortal
    Torinn said:
    Sartan said:
    Torinn said:

    We spoke of ritual rooms and yes they are great.  As a member of Lord Deucalion's Order, I had the privilege of experiencing one of those.  But as a prime example of what I'm attempting to express, when Lord Deucalion stopped being present the ritualism ground to a halt and it was not through a lack of trying on our part.  The room was set up to do certain things that He had begun to create (or maybe completed?  We don't know) and either it bugged so it no longer works, it was turned off, or the particular phase was completed and the next not started due to lack of attention.  It was as if it were a half-told story.  One tool I would like to see would be for Deucalion's Order Head to be able to customize what can happen in that room and change it (with approval) in the interest of continuing the story arc or seeing it to a form of completion.  A little trust needs to be given to the Order Head to not go bonkers, but someone should also be there to give the go ahead that what the Order Head is planning is appropriate.  

    If this was the ritual flame, then take a look at it. It was hopefully fixed not too long ago. If not, BUG it.

    Torinn said:

    Another thing that could be done is city leaders could gain the ability to create rooms or change rooms and their descriptions (within reason and with approval) in the city, and House leaders to do the same to their respective estates.  I'm sure we can all think of projects that are wanted or needed and weren't finished for whatever reason, and not through lack of effort on the player's part.  I don't know the real reason for it but I can hazard a guess that it's put on the back burner for a plethora of more important matters and is doubly so if the city doesn't have an active Patron.  Put more of the burden of writing and creating on the players themselves.
    This is exactly what patron requests are for. HELP PATRON REQUESTS outlines everything for those not familiar with them. Plus with the modifications that Ictinus and Nicola outlined earlier this month, it is even easier for city/house leaders to make requests and get feedback on the things they want to do. There is also [email protected] that handles event ideas and assistance requests. Let me also add that if you are doing an event and need some extra help with creation of something, speaking to your patron (where RP appropriate) or patron denizen directly is also an option. I can think of a number of people who reached out to the garden for assistance for their events and we were more than happy to assist.

    Alright so what you're saying is it already exists and people who want to progress org storylines just need to write it up and submit it which is awesome.  What if the players could also do some of the coding or events behind it so the admins/divine didn't have to find time to do it?
    This is a suggestion that's come up several times over the years and I'm not sure if it has been directly addressed or not, so I'd like to touch on the logistics of the situation.

    In response to the first half of this, those who interact with Achaea's codebase are never allowed to return to their mortal characters, create new characters, or to return to playing the game in any capacity. There are many reasons for this, including access to both sensitive information regarding the game, access to certain parts of the code that are intentionally obfuscated from players, and to prevent the temptation to build loopholes or ignore potential problems that can be abused in the future, should they ever return to the other side of Achaea.

    Achaea is also built in a custom engine, upon 22 years of code from various coders of differing levels of ability, across a number of systems that have some quirks that are very important to fully understand, and a lack of understanding (there are a few traps that those less experienced with the codebase tend to fall into, judging on past systems) tends to cause some pretty impossible to track down issues (for reference, see: gold sovereigns killing players). That, on top of the ever-present need to design systems around efficiency and speed as to avoid negatively impacting other facets of the game, means that even if we were able to nullify all of the points in the previous paragraph, we would still need to very carefully watch over new coders and scrutinize everything they do, which is more man-hours than doing it ourselves, and also tends to lead to a more negative experience for players when our systems are not as robust or as thoroughly tested as they should be, which means short-term help with development is just not feasible. At all.

    As for the second half, "events" is a very broad term, so I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at there. There are plenty of player-run and player-devised events that are wholly successful without any sort of admin interaction. For those larger, more impactful events that players tend to point to when pointing out what they can't do as players, writing the event itself tends to be very little of the overall workload, though if you do have ideas for events that you absolutely cannot do yourself, as mentioned above [email protected] is the place to send them.
    TorinnTaryiusPrythe
  • Sothantos
    Sothantos Member Posts: 617 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2019
    Pls split codebase into modular parts so that volunteers can work on less sensitive parts. :( They don't even have to compile without each other if you set up a build system to run the other parts.
    TorinnErerean
  • Torinn
    Torinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    Very interesting!  Thank you for your responses.  From my perspective it always seemed that creating events (such as divine room/area emotes, changing room descriptions, etc.) were very time consuming.  That is mostly what I had thought to address.  It is very great to hear it actually isn't such a big task!
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Stefana
  • Kelstaadith
    Kelstaadith Member Posts: 16
    What I would like to see in 2020:
    * addition of a war system involving npc fighters, fortifications, village alliances/capturing, etc. This would be a great sink for almost all comms and for gold.
    * increase in the amount of players, how to cause this is more challenging, but perhaps if each player tries to show the game to two people this year or something, because then they might show it, and things will go from there. More players means more people applying for garden, means more of everything people have asked for here.
    * People remembering that this is an rpg, and not always doing what works best. I know some people actually have good rp for doing things that are morally questionable, but it would be nice for people to think of things like hunting as killing, because that is what it is, and npcs as people, because that is what they are. I know a lot of people do this already, but a little interaction I had today where @Keorin said something about the mhun most likely only joining the Tsol’teth because they are always hunted and killed actually made me stop and think, so thought I would mention it, I almost never stop to think about why npcs do things, something I am going to work on changing now.
    * And finally, some kind of system to reflect all the npcs we do not see. Getting to at least know something about the people who are just normal people, not npcs of some kind or players, would be a good way to draw people into the world more. Perhaps add some more city area emotes about people moving about to get ready for the day at sunrise, things like that, and maybe some kind of system connected to morale that reflects the actions of the people, where if it get’s high enough there might be some passive increases in the cities funds or comms, and low enough there might be some kind of increase in the cost of hiring guards, etc.
    LennAsmodronShirszae
  • Lenn
    Lenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Ysela: So Mhaldor has all the ritual rooms? Geez. I only know that I've never had access to one.

    @Kelstaadith Your comment about killing denizens is precisely why my character is fine with killing adventurers who're high enough level to PK. I actually sort of doubt there's another adventurer out there at her level with as few denizen kills, and she's only 82, her average killed adventurer is 103.
  • Kelstaadith
    Kelstaadith Member Posts: 16
    It will not stop me from hunting, I will just think more about where.
  • Pyori
    Pyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lenn said:
    @Ysela: So Mhaldor has all the ritual rooms? Geez. I only know that I've never had access to one.

    Savants has one in their househall. And we might even be getting another.


  • Kyrra
    Kyrra AustraliaMember Posts: 4,941 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Lenn, the Temple of the Sky has a ritual room.

    I’ve also had a ritual implemented into a room that anyone can used with certain triggered phrases. This was done through RP on the IC side and an email to admin with a proposal which was found desirable to have.

    @Sobriquet, nobody has wings to Azatlan but there is a way to visit there ICly that doesn’t involve any credits being spent, or any artefacts for that matter. That fact you immediately jumped on this as being stuck behind a paywall is quite sad.

    There is a lot of opportunity for “tools” to be added for use by folks, but it requires someone to step up with solid ideas or a proposal that Someone would like to engage with. 

    I’m not a consistent or strong RPer compared to some and I find ritualism to be very awkward because I just don’t see my character having that trait. It’s amusing she ended up in the “ritual” house of Ashtan. I try though and sometimes awesome things happen as a result, and sometimes it doesn’t. 
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • Caelan
    Caelan Member Posts: 2,693 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2019
    The Aegeans have a ritual room.

    The Scions had one in the works, no idea if that fell through though. But we also have a room for our HR5 ritual.  And another small one for our HR3 ritual.

  • Minifie
    Minifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    Competative Achaea.

    In January competitors make an alt, rules are no artefacts or tasliman unless bought entirely via IC means. Last week of December everyone reveals their char and we decide who accomplished most.
    I have contemplated doing this, and with nexus, specifically to build something from the ground up that novices can just take and try to make the introduction to achaea a lot less daunting, then I hunt on something unartied and I nope out so damn fast. Maybe I should focus on doing something like that specifically just for 1-100 and basic setup for a f2p newbie though, just not focus it hard.
  • Sobriquet
    Sobriquet Member Posts: 2,787 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2019
    Kyrra said:
    @Lenn, the Temple of the Sky has a ritual room.

    I’ve also had a ritual implemented into a room that anyone can used with certain triggered phrases. This was done through RP on the IC side and an email to admin with a proposal which was found desirable to have.

    @Sobriquet, nobody has wings to Azatlan but there is a way to visit there ICly that doesn’t involve any credits being spent, or any artefacts for that matter. That fact you immediately jumped on this as being stuck behind a paywall is quite sad.

    There is a lot of opportunity for “tools” to be added for use by folks, but it requires someone to step up with solid ideas or a proposal that Someone would like to engage with. 

    I’m not a consistent or strong RPer compared to some and I find ritualism to be very awkward because I just don’t see my character having that trait. It’s amusing she ended up in the “ritual” house of Ashtan. I try though and sometimes awesome things happen as a result, and sometimes it doesn’t. 
    Sad indeed, given that most things are these days anyway. 
    image
  • Farrah
    Farrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,677 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lenn said:
    @Ysela: So Mhaldor has all the ritual rooms? Geez. I only know that I've never had access to one.

    @Kelstaadith Your comment about killing denizens is precisely why my character is fine with killing adventurers who're high enough level to PK. I actually sort of doubt there's another adventurer out there at her level with as few denizen kills, and she's only 82, her average killed adventurer is 103.

    Targossas has at least three. I imagine any org can get one, though. Lots have them as far as I'm aware.
    JiraishinTaryiusCooperReyson
  • Lenn
    Lenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I was joking about only Mhaldor having them, since Babel mentioned knowing about three or four. :p
  • Torrent
    Torrent Member Posts: 317 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited December 2019
    Other wish list. Pandora illustrated design or Chibi design will be acceptable!!

    Also more Chibis!!!!
    Kyrra
  • Asmodron
    Asmodron Member Posts: 3,145 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Concerning the Lightspire/Illusions, I have one and would have to say in my experience for the purposes of ritualism or RP, it simply just doesnt cut it. As long as lifevision exists, then the 'illusion' (pardon the pun) of the entire concept vanishes one way or another. There is always going to be either someone that points out they are just illusions or a majority of people that lose interest because 'it is fake'. Illusions cant really compare to room actions. Illusions have their use here and there such as performances but sadly not much for ritualism.
    ShirszaeOzmatiahTorinnFarrah
  • Accipiter
    Accipiter Member Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Phaestus players already get some access through the mortal builders program and we can control NPCs through pet ownership. Most events don’t need much more than an expansion of these systems.

    That said, I don’t really like the idea of elected players getting access to world buildy stuff without supervision, the lore of Achaea is already a mess and allowing someone to add to it just because they won a popularity contest would see all sorts of retarded things become canon.
    AsmodronLennCaelan
  • Milabar
    Milabar Member Posts: 322 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    1. Housing shops should be a thing.  If we can build almost anything into our estates, there should be a purchasable way to create a shop within the estate itself.  

    Hell make it 2000 credits or current shop values, but I know I'm not the only one that would like to be able to have a shop in my oos estate.

    2. DEAR GOD give us another way to get wood.  I know when it came out I tried to drop the price, got boned on that deal, and sold a lot for a hella profit.  But I also expected levels of wood to be more in tune to what they were before, once foragers were properly leveled and up and going.  But like credits, prices just keep rising and not much one can do besides collect the pitiful paltry amount three months out of the year.

    (If nothing else, Eleusian villagers should collect more, and Mhaldorians none since they want to destroy the forests rather then upkeep it)

    3. Finish this god forasaken Temple I've been building so I can start the quest line.  Not many people will care or ever be interested in learning Mithraea religion, but I really want it done before cancer eats me alive -.-

    4. Keep it up another year without dying 😂

    5. Step down as Hierophant as soon as someone wants or feels they can step up, focus on combat a bit more, and get my focus more on things I've been meaning to do, but never have time for currently.

    6. Make my wife happy, finish the customizations I've been working on for her, and stop interfering with her religion desires.

    7. Actually interact more with people, even if I feel said people are dumb.  I've been trying for years now to make Mila more interactive with people, hate or love him, but it's hard when there's still so much salt in my mind concerning so many people here.  I'm trying to be less toxic though, so who knows.

    8. Entertain the idea of joining an Order again.  This one is doubtful though, the story doesn't really allow it.

    9. Stop giving all my gold away to random noobs that turn it to be retired alts that have more then I do.

    10. Try to enjoy the game again.

    That's my 10 things for 2020.
    YgiaStefanaAsmodron
  • Stefana
    Stefana Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2019
    2020 Goals & Hopes:

    1. Yes to everyone who has mentioned the low availability and high cost of wood. Please give us more ways to get this miracle commodity that is necessary for eeeeverything.

    2. Related: I wanna round out the fleet next year with a couple of galleys!

    3. Finish the astonishingly time consuming library project I signed up for (might take all year, sorry @Seelie )

    4. Goal: Become more involved and more confident in Order stuff! Going to try to get out of my comfort zone a little bit in terms of IC interactions to make this happen. Hope: Pls come back @Neraeos

    5. Finally complete at least the basic combat/Army tasks I have been procrastinating for all off 2019.

    6. House related: Finish the path I am on and at least one more, and write a book for the Virtuosi library.


    Ayani
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