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Lackluster

IsmayIsmay ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand AchaeanMember Posts: 690 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

I will preface this by stating that I do appreciate the time and effort that the admin put into new content. These are my opinions, and are not presented as fact.


Anything new and shiny:

Initially, we get all excited and run to buy credits/become involved. Then, the hype disappears as the lackluster becomes evident. This is usually because the cost of participating is way too high, or the effort involved outweighs the payout. For instance, Shipfitting. I was so so excited for this marvelous new thing that I ran out and bought credits for my 12th trade skill. There is no need for me to elaborate on how expensive that is. Anyways, I then found out that the comms required are not regular comms, but prepared materials consisting of rather large combinations of other comms. Then the realization sank in that I'll likely never use this skill, or if I do, it will be very rare. To date, I've yet to use it. There are countless other similar examples. Sailing (cost, chops, time involved), mining, etc.


Large scale events:

These can be very exciting, depending on what they involve. The yearly games are open for anyone to participate in, but let's face it, only the top 5% will win anything in them (aside from maybe design contests). Other events usually consist of players bowling each other over to get mentioned in an events post. Others in the background don't stand a chance when NPCs initiate events cause the loudest ones flock to them and take over. That kills the motivation of many. Have a look at most event posts and you'll generally see the same names mentioned over and over. I'll leave you to consider why.


Old problems/requests overlooked for the newest shiny:

There are many things that players have asked for that have gotten overlooked in favor of the -new-. Things are broken, but hey, we have new! Personally, I'd appreciate most effort being put into the smaller player requests and solving old problems than into the next big credit hole. You might be surprised. Players may actually spend more money here if you address things they complain about. Who wants new features that are either broken, or disappointing?


Tips:

If it requires long amounts of time, a ton of effort and high cost, with little payout, people simply don't want it. No, I don't want to spend days gathering comms to make more comms for a skill that will rarely be used. No, I don't want to spend hours sailing through chops and dodging seamonsters and pirates to get to an island. Ship trades you say? Ha! Not on your life. That involves sailing to multiple islands, through chops, while dodging people who want to sink me.

We have grown up. Most of us can only spend huge chunks of time in game on our days off. Give us content that is more suited for the casual player. We have jobs, families, and responsibilities.

Involve the average Joe. Players who are quieter, keeping to themselves. Stop catering to the same select few. It never hurts to reach out to random players. You want people to keep coming back and potentially fund your game? Great! Keep them motivated and involved. The last thing you want is for your players to become bitter over time. Some of the things I've been seeing leads exactly to that situation.

Give us shop logs!

Pretty please...
LennXallax

Comments

  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,798 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 25
    Sounds more like you made shitty choices, rather than Admin bringing in "lacklustre" things. Do research before investing in things. All of these are opt-in, and you don't have to worry about them. As far as I'm concerned, seafaring doesn't exist, and I have an amazing time on Achaea
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,952 @ - Epic Achaean
    Ismay said:

    I will preface this by stating that I do appreciate the time and effort that the admin put into new content. These are my opinions, and are not presented as fact.


    Old problems/requests overlooked for the newest shiny:

    There are many things that players have asked for that have gotten overlooked in favor of the -new-. Things are broken, but hey, we have new! Personally, I'd appreciate most effort being put into the smaller player requests and solving old problems than into the next big credit hole. You might be surprised. Players may actually spend more money here if you address things they complain about. Who wants new features that are either broken, or disappointing?


    Tips:

    If it requires long amounts of time, a ton of effort and high cost, with little payout, people simply don't want it. No, I don't want to spend days gathering comms to make more comms for a skill that will rarely be used. No, I don't want to spend hours sailing through chops and dodging seamonsters and pirates to get to an island. Ship trades you say? Ha! Not on your life. That involves sailing to multiple islands, through chops, while dodging people who want to sink me.

    We have grown up. Most of us can only spend huge chunks of time in game on our days off. Give us content that is more suited for the casual player. We have jobs, families, and responsibilities.

    Involve the average Joe. Players who are quieter, keeping to themselves. Stop catering to the same select few. It never hurts to reach out to random players. You want people to keep coming back and potentially fund your game? Great! Keep them motivated and involved. The last thing you want is for your players to become bitter over time. Some of the things I've been seeing leads exactly to that situation.



    My biggest issue really.  Patch it all over with shiny and new.  And when those holes show, patch it up some more.  If too many exist, patch it with something else new..  Slow down. Take your time. Part of what kept me around so long was the attention to detail the builders and coders and admin put into the game.  Now it feels like it's all "pump out new content to pull in revenue and new players...we can fix it later".  And it is what has led me to refuse to buy credits for the last year-ish.   Though I agree with the comment on casual gaming.

    I love that the game (despite my recent downturn in play time) has dedicated admin, builder, and coder teams. But I would love it more if their legacy wasn't a string of broken 'new things' that require 'god level' intervention.  And an encyclopedia to remember all the new syntax for charms and items and baubles.

    @Aegoth I think you're focusing too narrowly on one tradeskill than the general theme.

    LennYsela
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Involve the average Joe. Players who are quieter, keeping to themselves. Stop catering to the same select few. It never hurts to reach out to random players.

    Can't speak for the rest, but if you're talking about denizen rp et cetera this is already a thing. And it also strikes me as a bit incongruous that on the rants thread you shamed people for being overeager when presented with chances for interaction, but here say those people just aren't reached out to. 
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
    Shirszae
  • IsmayIsmay ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean Member Posts: 690 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 25
    ... umm, you should probably reread it. I was talking about those who treat an encounter as if they were talking to the gods, instead of the npc. Actually, you may need to reread the entire thing, because here I'm referring to those who are typically not involved. Many don't want to fight through the loudest players in an effort to become involved. It just isn't worth the hassle.

    And no. I didn't "shame" anyone. I commented on a behavior that simply doesn't fit in a rp focused interaction.
    Give us shop logs!

    Pretty please...
    XallaxOzmatiah
  • LennLenn ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 586 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The tendency for most plots to be resolved with some GM NPC handling most things is a bit silly.
  • AstarodAstarod ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Jiraishin said:
    Involve the average Joe. Players who are quieter, keeping to themselves. Stop catering to the same select few. It never hurts to reach out to random players.

    Can't speak for the rest, but if you're talking about denizen rp et cetera this is already a thing. And it also strikes me as a bit incongruous that on the rants thread you shamed people for being overeager when presented with chances for interaction, but here say those people just aren't reached out to. 
    She was referring to people who always get denizen interactions mr. defensive cough cough. Perhaps when a denizen is talking to someone new, people should not butt in and try to impose their dialogue. The same 10-20 people dash to the shouting kid but when you get there it's always the same 4-5 people who get the talking points and interaction. Even then, though, you have to compete with the other 8 people who are being super passive aggressive or being aggressive aggressive.

    I just think you're not really understanding the point. 
    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."
    Ismay
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 25
    I wasn't being defensive, and I wasn't referring to myself. I'm well aware that by now I'm an established player. I still don't think it's a fair complaint: small scale denizen interactions do occur frequently and involve people who don't show up in events posts or leadership roles. Look at the interaction @Azazell previously mentioned on forums with Vellis, for example. 

    But also, if you think it's the same five people who always get the talking points (which isn't necessarily true either: look at that incident with the Mhunna after they made the alliance, and whoever that newb was the Mhunna was talking to) maybe you should figure out what in their behavior is making the difference. The admins give opportunities for interaction: how people respond determines how things progress.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
    CailinAzazellLaedha
  • OzmatiahOzmatiah ✭✭✭ - Distinguished Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jiraishin said:
     The admins give opportunities for interaction: how people respond determines how things progress.

    I think the perception that Ismay has, and I can understand and kind of share is that the same people get interactions. Granted when I look at these people, I think they are in the realms more than I, a better RPer than I, or a better fighter than I, or in most cases sadly, all three.

    I also realize that I've never been in a city, or house with an active patron, and my total denizen interaction count is 1, which at rank 30 something, multiple leadership positions, and 123 years old, is kind of sad. But, I don't really blame anyone for it. I've had a ton of interactions with other characters, and I figure it's just like I think it was Nicola who said something like we would love to have more volunteers. I also think people stop saying things are going on because like Ismay said, people will FLOCK to an incident/event for the simple sake that something is happening, even it's its a small child who lost a sock.
  • ReysonReyson ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean Member Posts: 551 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I'm not really going to weigh in on the subject, save to say this: 

    When you find yourself arguing that someone or many someones aren't roleplaying 'right' in an event that's nominally open to anyone, you're getting to a bad place.

    This is the equivalent in macrocosm of pencil and paper storytellers answering criticisms of the unapproachability and obtuse nature of an interaction or plot by arguing that the PCs just 'didn't do the right thing.'

    That's fine, and the storyteller is absolutely allowed to set what conditions they feel are reasonable and justifiable to require for the advancement of the plot, however... it's easy to get carried away with a clever plot or setup and forget that not everyone is keyed in one hundred percent to what you might consider reasonable or justifiable. If people are repeatedly bringing up the concern that hyperspecific actions/phrases are the only things that move plots, or that character reputation or loudness are eclipsing others' ability to participate in big-time events, that's a pretty legit concern. One of the cardinal rules of running any roleplaying game is to find something for everyone to do, that will provide a rewarding and enriching experience, even if it's just one scene. 

    Obviously, that's not feasible in a game like Achaea. But if one scans the Announce Posts, some names come up repeatedly and often, while the vast majority of names will not. That's not an invalid criticism, and it's one that bears exploring, even if just to make sure there's nothing that can be improved there. 
    PuxiShirszaeJiraishinTorinn
  • CailinCailin ✭✭✭ - Distinguished Member Posts: 350 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I won't say Achaea's events are perfect, but I do think it's perhaps the least of the concerns Ismay brought up. Despite not being a big-name RP-er, and being stupid and impatient at quests and therefore any quest-like events, I have had several enjoyable encounters in Achaea: Hourin Longtail visited Eleusis and talked to whoever was there willing to talk. - Neraeos randomly played a trick on myself and a Cyrenian in the orchard. - And the halfling child! That one was brilliant! That was a great interaction that involved everyone who attended the fair and attempted conversation with the child. - Vairii the Wave Dancer who visited all the organizations including Eleusis and the Nerai, and talked to them about religion and philosophy, another really inclusive and enjoyable mini-event. 

    These are the events that stick out to me from the time I've played, and it didn't feel like players were being meta and trying to get their name in the news, or the admin were catering to any certain players... I guess what I'm trying to say (tldr) is that while it may be that events could be improved, I don't think they're as bad as some are making it sound. Maybe it's because there are often little events involving little players that don't make it into any news, even though they are just as fun.
    Laedha
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,952 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 25
    Profit said:
    One time, during the Delosian heist event, I think the admin were trying to interact with me but I thought it was someone coming to kill me so I phased and ran away.
    See, even the Gods can't find Profit.  He is soooo OP. ;-)


    As to the rest of this...  I understand Divine wanting to interact w people who are good at RPing scenarios.  My main issue is the self-feeding cycle.

    If Divine talk to Player X, they MUST be good at RP.  They get a couple more interactions and mentions and suddenly they are the pinnacle of great RP. They are included in a circle of other "amazing RPers" - a pool if you will - for the admin to go-to for RPing stuff.

    I think the point of all of this is, you never know who will be great at it until you let them try.  You might see people interacting and think they suck.  Or maybe they just arent 'in practice'.  But they very well may be amazing.  Your interaction MAY drive home the entire RP aspect of this game (vs the social hangout one) and DEVELOP a fondness for entrenching more of themselves into the RP side.  But you will never know if you aren't giving them a chance because you already know what Farrah or Proficy or whomever, will say or do. (Caveat: I understand a lot of this is building off of older interactions and story lines.)

    For example: I am trash at RP for the most part.  I like the lore but I don't care enough about the game vs real life to spend hours memorizing every aspect of it (I still don't know all the names for followers of Divine, for example and don't care because I can find it on the Wiki if I need it).  But when a God talks to me I try like hell.  If an NPC ever did, I would be nervous I fucked up some big event and try harder.  And as far as the Divine, sure it means they wasted 10 minutes w me and can go try someone else. 

    But isn't it worth the 10 minute investment in randos to develop a deeper RP atmosphere in the game? 

    Shirszae
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,592 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reyson said:
    I'm not really going to weigh in on the subject, save to say this: 

    When you find yourself arguing that someone or many someones aren't roleplaying 'right' in an event that's nominally open to anyone, you're getting to a bad place.

    This is the equivalent in macrocosm of pencil and paper storytellers answering criticisms of the unapproachability and obtuse nature of an interaction or plot by arguing that the PCs just 'didn't do the right thing.'

    That's fine, and the storyteller is absolutely allowed to set what conditions they feel are reasonable and justifiable to require for the advancement of the plot, however... it's easy to get carried away with a clever plot or setup and forget that not everyone is keyed in one hundred percent to what you might consider reasonable or justifiable. If people are repeatedly bringing up the concern that hyperspecific actions/phrases are the only things that move plots, or that character reputation or loudness are eclipsing others' ability to participate in big-time events, that's a pretty legit concern. One of the cardinal rules of running any roleplaying game is to find something for everyone to do, that will provide a rewarding and enriching experience, even if it's just one scene. 

    Obviously, that's not feasible in a game like Achaea. But if one scans the Announce Posts, some names come up repeatedly and often, while the vast majority of names will not. That's not an invalid criticism, and it's one that bears exploring, even if just to make sure there's nothing that can be improved there. 
    To quote Sandy Petersen loosely, there is something in participative storytelling such as the rule of three warnings. Players should always be given three clear hints/chances to advance or turn back on a course of action. If they don't take them, that's their own damn problem. I feel like, in many events, this is missing. People are given hints to go forward in a unforeseeable trap without an alternative, but never when it comes to actually forge their own path with it. Then again, we're falling once again into arguing event narrative, which is, here, not the point.

    image
    Mroxyl
  • CerysCerys ✭✭✭ - Distinguished Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 29
    Then the realization sank in that I'll likely never use this skill, or if I do, it will be very rare. To date, I've yet to use it. There are countless other similar examples. Sailing (cost, chops, time involved), mining, etc.


    I do understand the desire to want to participate in every trade, but I do think you should stop and ask yourself, "Am I making a rational decision picking up this additional trade skill?" Chances are you're not and I believe it is unfair to paint a wide brush stroke over a player craft, just because you cannot find the value or energy to do it. It is also unfair to imply that you did not know about the sunk costs as there is an entire news article on Ship Fitting when it was released. Why are you torturing yourself by running out to pick up a trade skill when it appears you have prior complaints?

     

    What I would do instead is reevaluate what trade skills you have now and do what appears to be fun for you. There are people that do enjoy mining, sailing/diving, or foraging and would probably not mind trading their resources with you and vice versa. If you think of these skills as interactive and communicative, it will make life easier for you. For example, I am sitting on -thousands- of commodities from mining that can be used for trade in regards to ship fitting. There are also a bunch of foragers that are in the same boat. USE US. 


    Finally, it is a disservice to say there is "little payout" from trade skills. Take for example mining... yes, there was an initial cost upfront but the cost diminishes vastly over a month, six months, and a year depending on whether you use it or not. And, surprisingly, I even made money off of it and bought a boat!




    Laedha
  • CobaultCobault ✭✭✭ - Distinguished Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I had a whole bunch of big paragraphs typed out to add some talking points to this post, but honestly, it's just as quick and effective to say I agree with everything in the OP.
  • LaedhaLaedha ✭✭✭ - Distinguished Member Posts: 159 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I feel like admin have done a great job lately of balancing 'new and shiny' with fixing broken things, honestly. Foraging is a mess right now but moving more comms into player-generated skills is great. There have been a lot of good tweaks and QOL upgrades. Having the new tradeskills be fully NEW, and not just tailoring and jewellery with a new skin is great too. That's what I figured beverages and artistry would be, and I was pleasantly surprised. 

    No offense to the OP but if you took shipfitting without understanding that ship comms were not normal comms and would be really expensive, you can't have actually read the introduction post. This was in that original post. 

    4. Most ship equipment is now constructed using ship commodities. Ship commodities are created when shipfitters dismantle equipment or ships and can also be created from regular commodities with the following ratios:
    - Shipcloth - 50x cloth
    - Shipiron - 50x iron, 10x steel
    - Shipwood - 50x wood, 10x iron
    - Shiplines - 50x rope, 10x iron
    - Pitch - 50x wood, 10x animal fat
    I love shipfitting and I LOVE that the admin seem to have improved the trade ratios such that trading is back to being reasonably profitable every few months. 
  • ZackeryZackery ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited October 9
    Just my two cents, and definitely based on my own limited experience and some assumptions, but I wouldn't be so fast to assume that the reason some players are more frequently involved in denizen interactions is somehow unsavory. The more you RP and generate opportunities and reasons for denizens to interact with you, particularly ones that involve other players, the more frequently denizens will interact with you. Denizens aren't going to chase you down; you have to invite them, so to speak.

    That said, for large events: There are absolutely players who will try to dominate conversation and bulldoze others' attempts to participate. I'm not really sure that there's a solution to this, aside from setting mutually agreed upon expectations of a "step up, step back" model. Realistically, people won't adhere to that. Just one of those challenges inherent to the MU part of MUDs.
    LaedhaTaryiusJiraishinRyleigha
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