Dexterity - Make it do something

Iocun

I disagree. Basic group combat should be easy. The serpent 1v1 combat learning curve is steep, so people who don't want to deal with going all-in with learning serpent combat should at least be able to succeed in basic group scenarios without getting totally frustrated. Making every single form of combat success depend on deep combat knowledge just creates a further gap between combatants and non-combatants, which I wouldn't be too fond of.

Even with easy killing abilities being available, there are still enough hurdles for people who want to get into combat, even at a very basic level. (Especially if people don't buy a curing system.)

I probably wouldn't ever have gotten interested in combat at all if not for the relative ease of sniping. I got interested in combat through being around in raids and having a relatively easy thing to do there, which allowed me to get some successes and spurred me on to dig deeper. If I had been forced to get good at affliction combat in order to get any sort of victories at all, I probably would have given up frustratedly on the whole PvP thing rather soon.

Tvistor

Hrm. I understand what you mean, and I agree basic group combat should be easy, but at the same time I really feel like an artefact bow is a little too potent if you just evade/snipe most mid-tier combatants.

Iocun

If they die to evade/snipe in 1v1, I'd call them low-tier, not mid-tier.

(Or low-level, I guess. But it's hard to consider someone who's level twenty mid-tier, no matter how good they are.)

Tvistor

That's what you would think, but Antidas seems to school people with his bow all the time. 

@Daslin amirite?

Daslin

@Tvistor at least Antidas doesn't afraid of anything

amirite?

Trey

Ladies, ladies, you both lost the race for prom queen, now kiss, make up and salute the winner for 2013.













@Bonko.

Bonko

@Trey:

Aerek

What, exactly, is the problem with Garrote in group melee? We keep mentioning how Serpents can't melee in groups, and unless there's something I don't know, Garrote does good damage with the asphyxiation type, which ignores the majority of damage resistances out there. (Only the Fitness skill and the Algiz rune helps, to my knowledge.)

I agree that Serpents aren't must-haves in group combat and that knights are better, but I don't see them as gimped or useless in the group combat department, either. They have great LoS, good melee damage, great escape ability, and other useful utilities like block. (Does Lightwall stop other walls like Firewall?)

I also don't see the big deal with the Level 3 bow. A lot of people will die to Level 3 anything; Tekura damage, Soulpiercers, Staffcasts, you name it. That's an artefact thing, not a Serpent/bow thing.

Sena

Aerek said:

What, exactly, is the problem with Garrote in group melee? We keep mentioning how Serpents can't melee in groups, and unless there's something I don't know, Garrote does good damage with the asphyxiation type, which ignores the majority of damage resistances out there. (Only the Fitness skill and the Algiz rune helps, to my knowledge.)

Asphyxiation damage is also reduced by scales, tune, alchemist robes (optionally), and most importantly holding breath. If someone is keeping their breath held (not sure how many people actually do, most group fights I've been part of (which also isn't very many) were too spammy to keep track), garrote does nothing.

Jacen

Hrm... how bad would 100% accuracy unbalance monk? Prep time would be insanely fast.

Cooper

Aerek said:

What, exactly, is the problem with Garrote in group melee? We keep mentioning how Serpents can't melee in groups, and unless there's something I don't know, Garrote does good damage with the asphyxiation type, which ignores the majority of damage resistances out there. (Only the Fitness skill and the Algiz rune helps, to my knowledge.)

I agree that Serpents aren't must-haves in group combat and that knights are better, but I don't see them as gimped or useless in the group combat department, either. They have great LoS, good melee damage, great escape ability, and other useful utilities like block. (Does Lightwall stop other walls like Firewall?)

I also don't see the big deal with the Level 3 bow. A lot of people will die to Level 3 anything; Tekura damage, Soulpiercers, Staffcasts, you name it. That's an artefact thing, not a Serpent/bow thing.

Mostly because it misses a ton if the person isn't prone, doesn't do an affliction, and the damage isn't that great. Much more useful to snipe in any scenario.

Lightwall does not stop firewall or icewall.

Iocun

I didn't say serpents are useless in melee group combat. Biting camus is quite a good damaging ability, and well-placed doublestabs always help. Every class has a good damaging group combat ability (except perhaps jesters). I merely pointed out that serpents aren't particularly versatile in that aspect, especially since their form of hurting does only damage, and nothing else (like a BM's/dragon's proning, or a knight's or bard's afflicting, or the passive side-effects of vibes/ents/harmonics/rites/passive-hindering), and in melee they pretty can't do anything besides either damaging or afflicting a bit. Serpents are quite bad at hindering, can't prone as easily as most others, don't have any attacks that hit several targets at once (except illusion), no passive attacks (except rattlesnake). That still doesn't make them bad by any means, but it essentially leaves them similarly good at large-group melee as a classless, yet otherwise trans-skilled person with good weaponry.

The two things serpents are good at in large group fights is sniping and surviving.

Tvistor

What Cooper said.

You can camus in melee, but you'd have to flay which takes valuable time when everyone is dropping insanely fast, and there's no point because the bow is just outright better. It does more damage per second in addition to delivering an affliction. Garrote damage isn't too bad, but snipe is just better every time, unless you're going for damage right out of a backstab. (to be honest, the snipe is still possibly better in that situation).

So it's LoS, does more damage, afflicts, and there are tons of serpents who can really just rely on their bows instead of having any actual idea of what they are doing. That doesn't leave too many options if you're trying to kill a serpent who just mashes movement/snipe or evade/snipe.

Iocun

Tvistor said:

(to be honest, the snipe is still possibly better in that situation).

Snipe would be better if there are no hindering room effects, so you can just walk out. Garrote is better whenever you'd have to evade out to snipe, which would cost you too much time after a backstab (as you want to hit them while they're still stunned).

Tvistor

That's why I added a 'possibly'. If nothing is hindering you, the snipe is still superior. In addition to that, phasing in to start the backstabs isn't viable if someone on the opposing team is keeping an eye on your serpents (I'm looking at Niks). Moving in and waiting for the five second windup can be the difference between your side winning and losing.

That's not to say that other serpent abilities don't have their uses -- it's just that snipe can be substituted into many, many situations and be mechanically superior. Some serpents have even showed me they can hit people through stonewalls pretty consistently. (this is anecdotal, I have not tested)

Antonius

Aepas said:

I think that would put it more on par and balance the difference between low tier players and artied beasts.
I.E. saw a serpent with weaving get hit 50/50 times by soulpiercers, then maybe 20/50 times to a younger guy.

The younger guy likely didn't spend anywhere close to 3200 credits on his weapons, and also probably made a decision to sacrifice to-hit in favour of the other two stats (or, even if they didn't make the decision, have done so anyway).

Knights who have spent the credits on Soulpiercers aren't going to miss without clumsiness, but that's one of the few perks they've gained from the investment - the damage is also good, but the speed is mediocre at best.

Learyn

Tvistor said:

That's why I added a 'possibly'. If nothing is hindering you, the snipe is still superior. In addition to that, phasing in to start the backstabs isn't viable if someone on the opposing team is keeping an eye on your serpents (I'm looking at Niks). Moving in and waiting for the five second windup can be the difference between your side winning and losing.

That's not to say that other serpent abilities don't have their uses -- it's just that snipe can be substituted into many, many situations and be mechanically superior. Some serpents have even showed me they can hit people through stonewalls pretty consistently. (this is anecdotal, I have not tested)

To respond to the bolded, I use a non-artie bow, am trans subterfuge and even with aiming, I can't hit anyone past a stonewall/icewall.

Antidas

@Learyn he's mostly refering to me. I have an uncanny ability to be able to shoot through walls with decent accuracy, and its gotten me many kills on people who thought they were safe

Katzchen

@Antidas level ? bow, marksman trait?

Antidas

level 87, lupine bow, with marksman trait

Katzchen

Makes sense then. You've probably got something crazy like over 100% accuracy.

Learyn

Hrm, perhaps I should take on the marksman trait @Antidas. Like quite a few other serpents, I'm not exactly trans in hypno or venoms, so sniping is the only way I have to really do much in defense/raids/etc.

Antidas

I only took marksman because there was really nothing else I needed. I imagine that it won't make much of a difference alone, and the only reason it helps me is because of all the accuracy bonuses I have add up.

Seldin

Aerek said:

What, exactly, is the problem with Garrote in group melee? We keep mentioning how Serpents can't melee in groups, and unless there's something I don't know, Garrote does good damage with the asphyxiation type, which ignores the majority of damage resistances out there. (Only the Fitness skill and the Algiz rune helps, to my knowledge.)

Funny story, I just killed @Asmodron yesterday in raid defense by garroting him. Just need to catch them prone.

Katzchen

Yeah, I've wondered whether I should get marksman. I don't have snipe though, of course.

Cooper

I'm pretty sure walls make you miss 100% of the time. I've never seen an arrow hit through a wall ever.

Nemutaur

Cooper said:

I'm pretty sure walls make you miss 100% of the time. I've never seen an arrow hit through a wall ever.

I've seen serpents hitting arrows through walls, but shooting does seem to miss almost always through walls.

Iocun

They sometimes do. For some reason, it seemed to me as if it happens more often if you just raised the wall yourself, but that may be coincidence. So or so, I've had it happen multiple times: create icewall in direction, immediately snipe someone in that direction, it connects despite the wall, subsequent shots are stopped by the wall.

It is quite possible in any case that walls merely increase the chance of missing by a really high amount.

Archery is very weird and possibly buggy in several aspects though.

Antidas

Cooper said:

I'm pretty sure walls make you miss 100% of the time. I've never seen an arrow hit through a wall ever.

Ask Yen if you don't believe me. I sleeplocked her on the isle when she and Veldrin were hunting Ormyrr. Veldrin tried to wall to keep her alive, I kept on sniping and got the kill anyway. And thats only one example!

edit: the log of this event is actually in the combat logs thread somewhere, if you care enough to look it up.

Asmodron

Seldin said:

Aerek said:

What, exactly, is the problem with Garrote in group melee? We keep mentioning how Serpents can't melee in groups, and unless there's something I don't know, Garrote does good damage with the asphyxiation type, which ignores the majority of damage resistances out there. (Only the Fitness skill and the Algiz rune helps, to my knowledge.)

Funny story, I just killed @Asmodron yesterday in raid defense by garroting him. Just need to catch them prone.

That Aeon man  . F*ck occultists..