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Weaponry & Weaponmastery

MOSEYMOSEY Member Posts: 7
How do these skills work together? If you specialise in one, do you need proficiency in the other? Which one affects damage more? If Weaponry is trans is it better than Weaponmastery being transed? Any help or explanations are appreciated. Thanks!
Ryx

Comments

  • CeceliaCecelia Member Posts: 16 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Weaponmastery is your main hunting skillset. You're not going to do much damage or have a whole lot of accuracy if you're putting everything in weaponry instead of weaponmastery.


  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,917 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cecelia said:
    Weaponmastery is your main hunting skillset. You're not going to do much damage or have a whole lot of accuracy if you're putting everything in weaponry instead of weaponmastery.


    This is incorrect. Investing in Weaponry or Weaponmastery increases your "weapon skill", which affects damage, accuracy and speed with weapons. If you invest in both you get the full benefit of the higher one and 10% of the benefit of the lower. This is all explained in HELP WEAPONRY.

    What you'll miss out on by not learning Weaponmastery is the actual abilities.
    MOSEY
  • MOSEYMOSEY Member Posts: 7
    Thank you. So can it be assumed that, aside from abilities, each of these skill-sets affects damage equally? i.e. Having trans in either would improve damage by <insert arbitrary percentage here>
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,917 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    MOSEY said:
    Thank you. So can it be assumed that, aside from abilities, each of these skill-sets affects damage equally? i.e. Having trans in either would improve damage by <insert arbitrary percentage here>
    Based on the information in HELP WEAPONRY, that should be the case.
    MOSEY
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,253 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    Cecelia said:
    Weaponmastery is your main hunting skillset. You're not going to do much damage or have a whole lot of accuracy if you're putting everything in weaponry instead of weaponmastery.


    This is incorrect. Investing in Weaponry or Weaponmastery increases your "weapon skill", which affects damage, accuracy and speed with weapons. If you invest in both you get the full benefit of the higher one and 10% of the benefit of the lower. This is all explained in HELP WEAPONRY.

    What you'll miss out on by not learning Weaponmastery is the actual abilities.
    Shouldn't affect speed anymore. 

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,917 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Antonius said:
    Cecelia said:
    Weaponmastery is your main hunting skillset. You're not going to do much damage or have a whole lot of accuracy if you're putting everything in weaponry instead of weaponmastery.


    This is incorrect. Investing in Weaponry or Weaponmastery increases your "weapon skill", which affects damage, accuracy and speed with weapons. If you invest in both you get the full benefit of the higher one and 10% of the benefit of the lower. This is all explained in HELP WEAPONRY.

    What you'll miss out on by not learning Weaponmastery is the actual abilities.
    Shouldn't affect speed anymore. 
    Based on what?
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 539 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I thought the 10% came from Chivalry, now? I don't have trans Weaponry and my DSL matches anyone else's with L3 scimitars, 1.7-1.9s- my timestamps are the same as Proficy's, last time I looked (which was a while ago, granted, but I don't think they would have reinstated that?).
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,917 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 19
    Reyson said:
    I thought the 10% came from Chivalry, now? I don't have trans Weaponry and my DSL matches anyone else's with L3 scimitars, 1.7-1.9s- my timestamps are the same as Proficy's, last time I looked (which was a while ago, granted, but I don't think they would have reinstated that?).
    It used to be Chivalry and Weaponry, back when Chivalry was your primary combat skill as a Knight (i.e. before Weaponmastery existed). It's been Weaponmastery and Weaponry since the tradeskill/Knight changes. It's possible that Cooper is correct and it now only affects damage and accuracy, but I'd want an official source to point to when submitting a TYPO for that being wrong.

    Also the fact you're reporting a variation of 0.2 seconds on balance times just shows how bad timestamps are for determining anything.
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,253 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's been changed in HELP WEAPONRY for at least 5 years, possibly even 10.

  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,800 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 19
    Pretty sure the last time it was brought up, Mak said any skill that predominantly uses weapons (swashbuckling, weaponmastery, skirmishing etc) get their full speed benefit solely from that skill, with accuracy/damage gaining 10% of the 'full' bonus from weaponry.

    Been that way since weapons were streamlined / weaponmastery was added, iirc.

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,917 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    It's been changed in HELP WEAPONRY for at least 5 years, possibly even 10.
    Possibly not in all relevant places? From HELP WEAPONRY (accessed via the website just now):
    Proficiency and Weaponry skill also contribute to your effectiveness. Higher
    Weaponry results in an across-the-board increase (damage, fewer misses, quicker
    balance recovery).

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm convinced it's the help file that's incorrect Antonius. I remember learning that the 10% weaponry bonus speed was removed about ~5 years ago but I can't find anything to prove that so it may have even been some forum testing that concluded this. It would be nice to have some confirmation from Admin though, @Makarios if you're available. 

  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,253 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    Cooper said:
    It's been changed in HELP WEAPONRY for at least 5 years, possibly even 10.
    Possibly not in all relevant places? From HELP WEAPONRY (accessed via the website just now):
    Proficiency and Weaponry skill also contribute to your effectiveness. Higher
    Weaponry results in an across-the-board increase (damage, fewer misses, quicker
    balance recovery).

    They are not mutually exclusive. You are quoting the part about only weaponry, not weaponmastery+weaponry.

    (*) In the case of certain class skills (Weaponmastery, Pranks, and Skirmishing),
    training also increases effectiveness. To be specific, your "weapons 
    effectiveness" is the higher of your previously listed class skill or 
    Weaponry skill level, plus 10% of the lower.
    
    
    Weapons Effectiveness
    ---------------------
    This is a sort of general measure of how well you will use any weapon, and is
    related, as noted above, to the Weaponry skill (and, for some, the
    Weaponmastery, Pranks, Skirmishing, or Two Arts skill).
    
    What is affected by your weapon's effectiveness?
    - the chance that any weapon's attack (swing/jab/whatever) is 'a hit.'
    - the chance that your 'hit' is not avoided by your target.
    - the damage done.

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,917 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Antonius said:
    Cooper said:
    It's been changed in HELP WEAPONRY for at least 5 years, possibly even 10.
    Possibly not in all relevant places? From HELP WEAPONRY (accessed via the website just now):
    Proficiency and Weaponry skill also contribute to your effectiveness. Higher
    Weaponry results in an across-the-board increase (damage, fewer misses, quicker
    balance recovery).

    They are not mutually exclusive. You are quoting the part about only weaponry, not weaponmastery+weaponry.

    (*) In the case of certain class skills (Weaponmastery, Pranks, and Skirmishing),
    training also increases effectiveness. To be specific, your "weapons 
    effectiveness" is the higher of your previously listed class skill or 
    Weaponry skill level, plus 10% of the lower.
    
    
    Weapons Effectiveness
    ---------------------
    This is a sort of general measure of how well you will use any weapon, and is
    related, as noted above, to the Weaponry skill (and, for some, the
    Weaponmastery, Pranks, Skirmishing, or Two Arts skill).
    
    What is affected by your weapon's effectiveness?
    - the chance that any weapon's attack (swing/jab/whatever) is 'a hit.'
    - the chance that your 'hit' is not avoided by your target.
    - the damage done.
    Part A (which you've quoted) says that learning Weaponry increases your "weapons effectiveness", which increases damage, chance to hit and chance to not be dodged. It also says that learning certain other skills can increase "weapons effectiveness" in place of/in addition to Weaponry, with the second (lower) skill only providing 10% of its benefit.

    Part B (which I've quoted) says that learning Weaponry increases your "effectiveness", and also that higher Weaponry increases damage, accuracy ("fewer misses") and speed ("quicker balance recovery").

    Is that "effectiveness" in part B not the same thing as "weapons effectiveness" in part A? Is that across-the-board increase to damage, accuracy and speed from higher Weaponry in addition to the increase to damage and accuracy from higher "weapons effectiveness" (which is itself a result of having higher Weaponry)?
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,925 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 19
           

  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,253 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you have one of the 3 skills transed listed in my quote, you only get a damage and accuracy boost from transing weaponry.

    If you only have weaponry transed, you would still get the speed bonus. When you trans both, you do not get a speed bonus from both. 

    The help file shows exactly what you get of you trans weaponry + one of the others, and then separately describes weaponry by itself.

  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,251 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Would be amusing if Mak said you both are some how wrong :p

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Caelan
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,253 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    He might just to spite us  =)

    I'm very confident in my info though, even if the help file isn't worded perfectly.


    Caelan
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,865 Achaean staff
    We'll get that helpfile fixed. Weapon-using classes get their bonuses from the relevant skill. If you don't have that skill, weaponry will still make your weapons faster (so a person using weapons in magi or druid for instance wil gain the bonus from weaponry, while a runewarden or infernal will get it from weaponmastery).

    CooperCaelanMroxyl
  • PlakPlak Member Posts: 109 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Bonuses

    So... weaponry also does not influence damage/to-hit anymore if you have transed the relevant class skill as a weapon-class?
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