The future of the Pirates of Meropis?

Cooper

Laedha said:

Lenn said:

I haven't sailed in years, but my understanding is that sailing (per ship) is still significantly worse gold that ordinary dragon hunting, outside the very best trade deals (and the fact that it doesn't cap).

Is this still true?

Seamonster hunting near Tapoa is 60k per hour, that's pretty good even compared to dragon hunting. 

I LOVE a lot of what @Khel said but I am not sure admin is willing to make coding changes. 

60k per hour is before ship and weapon costs.

Tahquil

It doesn't count to cap though. So hit hunting cap them putter around on a boat for while for extra gold. That's what I do anyway.

Cooper

Switch to only talisman areas if you want to earn gold after the gold cap. Still faster than seamonstering.

Tahquil

No.    

Morsul

Seamonstering pales in comparison to dragon bashing


*if you have the arties

Rackham

Morsul said:

Seamonstering pales in comparison to dragon bashing


*if you have the arties

Ya know, I didn't have the straight info to speak on this, but I had a feeling...

This talk about seamonstering profits "after ship and ammo" compared to bashing isn't a fair comparison when you take into account the artefacts needed for high tier bashing. Those are comparable, if not more, than the cost of a ship, and ammo fees can easily be mitigated by fishing between seamonsters.

Fact is there's easy profits to be made through seafaring, be it seamonsters, fishing, deep sea diving, or just accessing islands that those without, can't. And all before you've even hit dragon.

Cooper

Except that my comparison uses base dragon bashing with 0 arties.

But it's okay, if you guys want to believe that seafaring can generate good gold, then go for it!

[Deleted User]

Provided you do it efficiently, you will not end up using much ammo since you get a bunch back after killing the seamonster. Ship costs aren't extraordinary, unless you're needing to salvage which isn't really related to seamonsters and more you being inexperienced.

The main problem lies in if you can't do it solo, since then you'll be splitting gold with someone else. If you can do it solo, you absolutely will make more money than bashing as an unartied dragon.

eta: Efficient seamonster hunting, however, has a significantly higher startup cost than Dragon bashing, if you're using your own ship and not the navy's or something. (you'll be expected to fork over some of the profits to the city if you are, anyway, so see 'main problem' point). So actually making a 'profit' is going to take quite a while, you're just making back money in the meantime.

eta2: Not sure what any of this has to do with the PoM, though.

Vinzent

I hunted seamonsters instead of bashing as Dragon because I made more gold without health artefacts that way, even being as efficient as possible. There are level three zones which offer more gold as well.

Cailin

The best way to hunt seamonsters is to hunt with other people, but they have their own ships.

It wasn't the ammo costs that were tough for me, but wages. I just didn't hunt often enough to pay for wages. That being said, I have permissions on city ships that I could take out instead, and that costed me very little in comparison, because I only had to pay wages/fees for the portion of time that I used the ship.

Kresslack

This has gotten completely derailed at this point. The subject isn't on whether Seafaring offers more profitable opportunities than bashing on land. It's also not about quirks regarding the Seafaring system and how people think it can be improved, or whether or not it's designation should be altered.

Please consider the original post and request for feedback and solutions relating to how the PoM can potentially go forward, or whether it should simply fade into the annals of history.

There is a LOT of history in the PoM and surrounding it, and I'll say that some of my character's most exciting adventures and RP experiences were as a part of it. While I would be forlorn to see it close down, I certainly understand the challenges it is facing, and has been facing for some RL years now.

I think the only way an organisation like that can continue to operate and thrive is either as a sanctioned Privateering company with city-state blessing, or as a company of avid Seafarers operating completely independent from and of any city-state and without influence of any other organization.

If I'm being honest, I think it would be awesome to have a small pirate group out on the waters, trying to avoid the Naval forces of the various city-states, while also seeking adventure and plunder, and working towards making the experience memorable with RP and fair play.

That's a lot to hope for in Achaea's current climate, so if it can't be accomplished or reasonably worked towards, it may be best to admit the PoM has had it's run.

Jinsun

Kresslack said:

This has gotten completely derailed at this point. The subject isn't on whether Seafaring offers more profitable opportunities than bashing on land. It's also not about quirks regarding the Seafaring system and how people think it can be improved, or whether or not it's designation should be altered.

Please consider the original post and request for feedback and solutions relating to how the PoM can potentially go forward, or whether it should simply fade into the annals of history.

There is a LOT of history in the PoM and surrounding it, and I'll say that some of my character's most exciting adventures and RP experiences were as a part of it. While I would be forlorn to see it close down, I certainly understand the challenges it is facing, and has been facing for some RL years now.

I think the only way an organisation like that can continue to operate and thrive is either as a sanctioned Privateering company with city-state blessing, or as a company of avid Seafarers operating completely independent from and of any city-state and without influence of any other organization.

If I'm being honest, I think it would be awesome to have a small pirate group out on the waters, trying to avoid the Naval forces of the various city-states, while also seeking adventure and plunder, and working towards making the experience memorable with RP and fair play.

That's a lot to hope for in Achaea's current climate, so if it can't be accomplished or reasonably worked towards, it may be best to admit the PoM has had it's run.

That's kind of where I'm at. I'm just tired. I stayed a pirate for so long because I didn't wanna let down it's legacy, and I really did want to see it be more and for sailing to be more balanced and equitable for everyone. In the end, it was just constantly used as a scapegoat for me being some shitty, awful person that was easy for people to hate. I'm gonna take some time to not play as much, maybe enjoy my xbox game pass a bit.

Rackham

Jinsun said:

maybe enjoy my xbox game pass a bit.

Still unrelated to PoM, but Sea of Thieves is on game pass, jussayin....  

Iloisee

This might not be a solid contribution but the idea of "the seas are lawless" seems to be very muddy nowadays from my perspective. Cities have a stance on piracy and associating with pirates which negates the seas being lawless. You can't hire on a pirate for attacking you at sea but you city can enemy them or make a policy of punishing people who work with them if they so choose.

People I've discussed this with make the point that cities ought to have this right and I agree. However, you simply can't pretend the seas are lawless then. 

I'm not going to throw in with pirates if my city has a Navy capable of being something and if my city is going to be factionally opposed to pirates. It's not sensible. Spending some time acting as the Navy and some time acting as the pirates is silly even if the city allowed it. (E.g. "use your own ship for it, no city flag" type deal.)

So if all cities decide to oppose piracy because there are factional repercussions (city relations ham) for associating with them... Unless there are a lot of rogue sailors, pirates as a faction won't be sustainable.

Correct me if I'm wrong, since my opinion is basically coming from the news and not firsthand.

Dispense with the idea that the seas are lawless and add a structure similar to Dauntless for seafaring. Apply it to ships rather than people maybe, possibly via flag. Penalty for non-"Dauntless" ships in the form of a maintenance gold cost, call it a protection fee, so people can fish in peace if they really want. That "fee" could apply to active "Dauntless" ships to some minimal benefit like a maintenance cost reduction.

Tonin

Iloisee said:

I'm not going to throw in with pirates if my city has a Navy capable of being something and if my city is going to be factionally opposed to pirates. It's not sensible. Spending some time acting as the Navy and some time acting as the pirates is silly even if the city allowed it. (E.g. "use your own ship for it, no city flag" type deal.)

Historically, members of a navy could operate as part-time pirates if they were given a letter of marque by a sovereign state. In other words, even if a city was opposed to piracy, they could grant members of their own navy (or even members of another navy) some kind of sanction or indemnity that would allow them to pirate vessels from certain other factions. How exactly this could function is up for discussion, but they could get cityfavours (or some other benefit) in exchange for turning over a portion of the loot to the state that issued their marque. It could also work somewhat similarly to the bounty system, where a city just offers a flat gold reward for every vessel sunk of X or Y allegiance.

"True" pirates, those without any formal approval from a state, could still operate but would be more vulnerable since they're essentially taking the spoils for themselves instead of claiming it for their faction. Higher risk vs reward.

Hypothetical example time:

Mhaldor Navy forbids all unapproved piracy, but is at war with Hashan and will grant a waiver against any Hashan-flagged ships.

Ashtan Navy has no laws restricting their citizens from pirating vessels, but starts paying a gold stipend to anyone who sinks a Cyrenian.

Targossas and Cyrene form an alliance, and forbid their citizens from pirating vessels of allied factions, but allow piracy of any other craft, and pay a stipend for Mhaldorian ships.

Eleusis has no formal laws regarding piracy, and does not pay out or punish anyone for any form of piracy.

While this type of system would certainly have some kinks that need ironed out, I think it gives cities some flexibility in dealing with the issue. I think the biggest issue to work out is balancing the reward from the city against the reward someone would normally get from pirating a ship; obviously if the reward is too big, it wouldn't make sense for a city to drain its coffers paying people to sink ships, and if it's too small, no one would bother getting a formal marque from a city, since they'd get more from simply being an unlicensed pirate. Maybe (and this might be a stretch) there could be established navies similar to the army system, and people could gain navy rank from successfully completing marques/bounties/whathaveyou for their city.

tldr, piracy and a formal navy don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Mroxyl

@Jinsun You also can't pay off someone who's only doing it to be a jerk, as causing grief and unhappiness is all they want.

My biggest issue with the piracy system as it is now, is the loss of my RL time. Even low level players can make a good gold flow, if you ask questions and pay attention to what others are saying. Having several hours of time taken away by being pirated during a trade run, loss of time to get salvaged, and then the time heading back to a port where I can resupply the ship, those are the things I don't like. If it was, ho hum, I'm out some gold, a couple of minutes of time, and I can give some loser the finger and go back to what I'm actually interested in doing, I'd be more supportive of the idea. There's not enough upside to getting involved in sea fights, from my perspective, to not support the idea of simply smashing anyone who goes out attacking ships. The idea of having some sort of pirate organization is interesting, but I can't see enough reward against the risk to be supportive either IC or OOC.

Morthif

Tonin said: 

Ashtan Navy has no laws restricting their citizens from pirating vessels, but starts paying a gold stipend to anyone who sinks a Cyrenian.

tldr, piracy and a formal navy don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Ashtan now bans Navy members from being in PoM. 

Morthif

@Jinsun
 I’ve been thinking about it since you posted and while I don’t have a suggestion for how to do it I think you would probably be happier if you killed off PoM rather then change it and risk tarnishing it’s legacy. I know the Mariners Guild is about dead and the MTC never stood up to either of those two. 

Jinsun

Morthif said:

@Jinsun
 I’ve been thinking about it since you posted and while I don’t have a suggestion for how to do it I think you would probably be happier if you killed off PoM rather then change it and risk tarnishing it’s legacy. I know the Mariners Guild is about dead and the MTC never stood up to either of those two. 

I'd probably be happier if I got any response to my numerous requests on how to wrap it up and close it ha.

Jinsun

Also @Rackham I got game pass for sea of thieves. It is fun but missed the mark, fighting skeletons on loop gets old. The sailing mechanics are great.

Tonin

Morthif said:

Ashtan now bans Navy members from being in PoM. 

It was a hypothetical set of circumstances. I don't know what kind of laws whichever city has regarding piracy, I was just proposing a way for city allegiance and piracy to not be a binary choice.

Thaisen

@Jinsun You wrap it up by going down in a blaze of glory. Wait until we (Cyrene) have about 3-4 ships seasmonster hunting then find 4-5 other willing pirate-y folk willing to have an all out war south of Tapoa. It'll be great!

Jinsun

Thaisen said:

@Jinsun You wrap it up by going down in a blaze of glory. Wait until we (Cyrene) have about 3-4 ships seasmonster hunting then find 4-5 other willing pirate-y folk willing to have an all out war south of Tapoa. It'll be great!

Pirates has 2 active members thanks to Ashtans new change.

Thaisen

It'll be a....really quick....blaze of glory then?

Kresslack

The biggest question would, if shutting it down, what happens to the assets? Honestly, I would see about about reaching out to the Patron to arrange something neat, like taking Shipwreck Isle and opening it up to the public as like this hole in the wall tavern/hideout for rogues, smugglers, and less than savory sorts of sailors. A place where you can buy a drink, but you're just as likely to get stabbed or start a fight because you accidentally bumped some lad's elbow while you were moseying on up to the bar.

Have the ships salvaged (true salvaged) to decorate the place with, maybe use parts for gambling equipment and other stuff. The wheel could be used for a roulette table or something, etc.

Whatever treasury is left, either divide it among the active members or bury it somewhere and see if anyone finds it some day.

Accipiter

The trouble I had with the Pirates and being in a city was that the pirates basically used it as an excuse to kill citizens. Even crusades and things people don't allow citizen fights but somehow the pirates wanted free reign to sink boats of citizens and got uppity when anyone said anything about it. Maybe have it as a roving band for hire thing: every 10 IG years you put up allegiance for sale, members get citizenship in the winning city and that city and all citizens are off limits. If you get told there is on a boat you are attacking you break off the attack, the city forfeits 50k for every false claim of a citizen on a boat.

NB: in this case I am using citizen to mean 'a person is who a member of the city that the pirate is also a member of'

Morthif

Kresslack said:

The biggest question would, if shutting it down, what happens to the assets? Honestly, I would see about about reaching out to the Patron to arrange something neat, like taking Shipwreck Isle and opening it up to the public as like this hole in the wall tavern/hideout for rogues, smugglers, and less than savory sorts of sailors. A place where you can buy a drink, but you're just as likely to get stabbed or start a fight because you accidentally bumped some lad's elbow while you were moseying on up to the bar.

Have the ships salvaged (true salvaged) to decorate the place with, maybe use parts for gambling equipment and other stuff. The wheel could be used for a roulette table or something, etc.

Whatever treasury is left, either divide it among the active members or bury it somewhere and see if anyone finds it some day.

This is actually fucking perfect. Take the gold which I hear is a lot and expand the island to do this. It’s a really cool idea that would need a lot of admin help so I hope they dig it too. As for any ships divide them up between you and Zulah. 

Zulah

The first areas PoM used were originally accessible by anyone, member or not, who knew the passcode. Hence it had guards inside. The shops were always meant to be something the entire world could access given they wanted to learn how.

Morthif

Zulah said:

The first areas PoM used were originally accessible by anyone, member or not, who knew the passcode. Hence it had guards inside. The shops were always meant to be something the entire world could access given they wanted to learn how.

Someone tested very recently and I think it’s clan locked now. 

Taleila

not gonna lie, I totally tried to get back into the hideout after I was no longer PoM, just to see if I could. Couldn't manage it on my own, but I ain't gonna lie, I (had) friends in low places, and I let someone in and showed them around because they were PoM, and I was like "what do you mean you haven't seen the shipaxe?! lets go, i'll show you!" but that's been... idk over an OOC month ago? nearly two? I don't remember. was good fun though. 

I haven't really taken the time yet to catch up with all the in-game goings-on in the last few weeks, but I'm hoping to find some measure of mental stability soon, so I can get back into the swing of things. Might be a bit before that happens, unfortunately.

As far as things go for PoM, it's been on it's last leg for a while and with my mental health severely deteriorating the way it did, I was in no way capable of doing much of anything to help it, but I love the idea of using the org's funding to expand Shipwreck Isle and open it to the public, and I feel like it should be up to the surviving members of the org to decide what happens to the ships. I, personally, would love to see the PoM's flagship (Yard and Fundament) become an explorable part of Shipwreck Isle, that way it's beauty could be admired, and people actually would get to see that gorgeous ship's wheel, since the Pirate's Hideout already has a ship-wheel roulette table (I gambled away more than my fair share of gold there, I admit!)