Druid or sentinel?

Malaize

I love metamorphosis, but I'm having trouble deciding on which metamorph to play. I like all of their skills, so making compromises isn't really the issue, I'll be happy no matter what I pick, but I would prefer less artefact investment. Are either of these classes gated behind having artefacts to participate in solo or group combat? If so, what's the damage going to be? That is, am I going to go broke funding either of these? I read some old threads saying that unartied sentinel cannot function.

Athelas

Druid = Needs Artifacts (Without a splinter, you just constantly run out of sunlight.)

Druid bashing is SUPER SLOW especially now that they no longer have access to jaguar reflexes. If anyone knows a way around this, or what I'm missing, or if I'm mistaken ... please clarify.

Telinus

It depends on what you want to do - my experience with both classes are:

Bashing:

Sentinel wins this - thrust is solid, squirrel is DoT for som enice crit attacks, and it feels more secure (barkskin/chainmail/first aid etc.)

Druid has some nice defences and buffs, but is just rather slow with endurance being a big issue here from my recollection (may have changed)

Utility:

Both classes have very strong utility in the form of metamorphosis, with access to multiple useful skills - track, leap, sprint, lyre, fly.

Outside of this Druid probably trumps in terms of pure utility - access to groves and grove abilities is very strong - endurance regen, harvest your hive, gates, grove of isolation, portability, resurrection, adding in their new ability with overgrowth etc. grants loads of new and cool utilities you can utilise, as well as support your allies

PvP:

Again, both classes are rather solid in PvP. I would argue that Druid requires less investment for a much more impactful insta-kill (I believe this is very hard to avoid) though does require a bit more prep work. Druid always felt ot me as more of a support class in terms of PvP through groves, though reclamation has adapted this somewhat, they still feel less "aggressive" than Sentinel, even though I would argue they have a better chance of securing the kill with their insta for a less complicated offense. They are powerful when you learn what to do, though they are a bit limited in terms of variability in finishing.

Sentinel I would say, is the stronger PvP class in terms of flexibility and survival. They have access to multiple kill paths, though in my opinion they all felt a bit disconnected from each other and had a more complicated management approach than was strictly necessary, however outside of that, they are strong and versatile, with multiple useful abilities for group and 1v1 combat.

I would always say, for me, Sentinel was the better class. I enjoyed the complexity and variability that I found lacking in Druid, however that's not to say that Druid is lacking in their utility - they trump sentinel on this.

If you want solid bashing and fun complexity with a class that throws handaxes and uses spears/tridents with traps then go for Sentinel. If you want a strong utility class with solid 1v1 capability and useful group/ally buffs who embodies nature in its entirety, go for Druid.

Both classes can work without artefacts, Sentinel probably  abit stronger than Druid, though i would argue that at a higher tier of combat to maximise its potential Sentinel requires more artefact investment (handaxe/spear/shield/EQ gem) whilst Druid requires less.

@lyrin can give you a good run down of Sentinel, as can @rangor. @rom can give you a good breakdown of both Druid and Sentinel for combat, as can @miriew.

For me, I'd go Sentinel for hunting/pvp over druid, but maybe druid for that nature RP feel.

Telinus

Oh @caelan can weigh in on sentinel too (forgot about him cause he's a massive scrub lord)

Caelan

I would have commented but I never tried Druid.  Sentinel definitely is fun except the paths feel pretty disconnected as was said.  Otherwise, I enjoy it.  

Malaize

Thank you so much for answering! I decided to go with sentinel because I like the idea of animals and traps a lot, and it sounds deeper than druid. I'd love some advice on how to PvP as an unartied sentinel if anyone would like to share.

Caelan

Learn the abilities in each skill, practice.

Telinus

Malaize said:

Thank you so much for answering! I decided to go with sentinel because I like the idea of animals and traps a lot, and it sounds deeper than druid. I'd love some advice on how to PvP as an unartied sentinel if anyone would like to share.

The way that I viewed Sentinel was you have 3 variable kills that you can work towards. If you're clever and willing to put in the time ( I wasn't really ) you can mesh them together.

1. Petrify - as an unartied Sentinel this is a bit harder to pull off, you're essentially wanting RNG to work in your favour. Sometimes it will, sometimes it wont. I found it easiest to just switch between wolf and butterfly, keeping a passive raven or lemming out to give me the additional afflictions. Essentially you want to doublestrike + enrage the wolf and butterfly to give the mental and physical afflictions you can find in the AB PETRIFY ability, when they have the relevant afflictions, then you go for the petrify kill. If you have an artefact spear/handaxe this becomes a bit easier as you can attempt to stick impatience and then give the affs a bit quicker with the handaxe, though you lose out on the burst from spear.

2. Dismember - this relies on limb damage and getting your opponent to a certain % health and then using metamorphosis to give them the relevant kill. Essentially you prep head, legs and arm(s) and want to prone them, break head, skullbash, transfix, ensnare, rattle, truss - ideally with sensitivity as this will allow you to get them definitely below 65% (60%?) for the duration you need on them  being unconscious for truss - truss binds them, then you impale on your spear and finally dismember in jaguar form. It can be a bit hit or miss, against people with lots of arties it can be a nightmare to get them where you need (sip/passive regen/decent parry strategy/resistances etc), but all in all if you get it right, it can work - again this feels  bit RNG based without artefacts.

3. Damage - here you have a few options, multiple prone skullbashes, bleeding, pound. These are all relatively viable, but again RNG on if you'll get the kill. They are mostly geared around limb breaks.

You have the potential to tie all 3 together, but they are all a bit clunky till you really streamline it. The potential is there for a load of interesting stuff, but nothing feels as secure as say a lock or other class finishers just due to the health requirements.

Adding in abilities like traps to your offense (dart trap for example) can help in these instances, but they rely on your opponent walking into your room (so essentially chasing you).

It will be difficult to a certain extent, some aspects are easier than others, but it can be very rewarding when it pays off. I would recommend speaking to @lyrin in game and getting a feel with him, and with @caelan. They both have some good knowledge on Sentinel.

Just an FYI, I managed petrify and dismember unartied, along with damage unartied - some RNG required but doable. Artefacts greatly increase your presence as a sentinel. In group you will be a god for your team.

Caelan

Agree again here. 

The biggest problems I ran into when I came back from dormancy was how much health everyone had, and playing with the dismember route.  I realized quickly that it is a bitch to get most people worth fighting below the threshold to actually pull it off because they have to be pretty low when you hit that particular step in the process (especially if you need to use skullbash since it has a 3.3s balance so you lose all your affliction progress and they can sip twice and moss in between) and the passive healing and arties REALLY mess that up sometimes (seeing that someone generated 1hp more than you needed to pull it off, between attacks, was infuriating).  

Then it became that the afflictions to get them to mess up their sips or whatever so you can get them low enough meant using axe for speed, which does minimal damage so it's best to work it into a limb strategy, but then that extends the fight quite a bit due to low damage output and working around their parry strategy.

I did learn that PETRIFY removes a lot of the variables that DISMEMBER requires.

Petrify can be done:

- Untargetted so you don't have to worry about your opponent parrying.

- Without worrying about counting / tracking limb counts.

- Easier as an Unartied because, while it depends on your spear stats, it is about layering the afflictions which can be done 3 at a time.

I am by no means an 'expert' yet because every time I log in and start trying to get back into it, something else pops up, or I want to work on adjusting curing prios, or something with the House needs doing...  but I have been able to pull out a number of petrify kills, a couple of dismembers (which is definitely a rush when you see it), and some other random kills through damage (mostly smaller folks) that reassured me I am not the only one who dies to damage nowadays.

Tasus

Caelan said:

Agree again here. 

The biggest problems I ran into when I came back from dormancy was how much health everyone had, and playing with the dismember route.  I realized quickly that it is a bitch to get most people worth fighting below the threshold to actually pull it off because they have to be pretty low when you hit that particular step in the process (especially if you need to use skullbash since it has a 3.3s balance so you lose all your affliction progress and they can sip twice and moss in between) and the passive healing and arties REALLY mess that up sometimes (seeing that someone generated 1hp more than you needed to pull it off, between attacks, was infuriating).  

Then it became that the afflictions to get them to mess up their sips or whatever so you can get them low enough meant using axe for speed, which does minimal damage so it's best to work it into a limb strategy, but then that extends the fight quite a bit due to low damage output and working around their parry strategy.

I did learn that PETRIFY removes a lot of the variables that DISMEMBER requires.

Petrify can be done:

- Untargetted so you don't have to worry about your opponent parrying.

- Without worrying about counting / tracking limb counts.

- Easier as an Unartied because, while it depends on your spear stats, it is about layering the afflictions which can be done 3 at a time.

I am by no means an 'expert' yet because every time I log in and start trying to get back into it, something else pops up, or I want to work on adjusting curing prios, or something with the House needs doing...  but I have been able to pull out a number of petrify kills, a couple of dismembers (which is definitely a rush when you see it), and some other random kills through damage (mostly smaller folks) that reassured me I am not the only one who dies to damage nowadays.

What’s dismember look like? Also creeping this thread because I want to try Sentinel at some point maybe

[Deleted User]

Sentinel is stronger than Druid? Bruh.

As for dismember, it's tough (not impossible) to pull off on people who prio blind when prone. Sentinel has anti-parry now, I think with haemophilia? (idr exactly which aff, just know the classlead) Which they can stick pretty easily, given how low prio it is when it comes to curing vs Sentinel, and given how none of their affs -require- a limb (aside from prone, obviously).

I would say it's pretty dependent on having arti weapons (both axe, and spear). Petrify can get by without the speed increases, dismember needs as much speed as you can get. Especially vs tankier people. Diadem is pretty invaluable once you get artifact axe, as well. Axes open up a lot.

Caelan

*I* never said Sentinel is stronger - I said I never played Druid so I couldn't say.    Of course arties will help.  There was an issue with the parry bypass not working on trip IIRC which is in classleads now.  Axe is helpful for prepping breaks, for sure.  My point was more that for someone just picking it up, Petrify is probably the best place to start since it doesn't require as much.  Which is kind of what you just reiterated.

[Deleted User]

Caelan said:

*I* never said Sentinel is stronger

My comment was in response to Telinus saying that, not you. I should probably use quote boxes more.

Petrify is definitely the simpler route when it comes to all the tricks Sentinel has. Definitely a difference in kill speed between arti spear and no arti spear, but it's not as significant as axes for limb prep/locking (I would definitely say to get axe + diadem first if you had to choose).

Telinus

Pyori said:

Caelan said:

*I* never said Sentinel is stronger

My comment was in response to Telinus saying that, not you. I should probably use quote boxes more.

Petrify is definitely the simpler route when it comes to all the tricks Sentinel has. Definitely a difference in kill speed between arti spear and no arti spear, but it's not as significant as axes for limb prep/locking (I would definitely say to get axe + diadem first if you had to choose).

I should clarify - overall I found sentinel stronger than druid as a complete package - 1v1 druid is a beast, group I would choose sentinel every time, hunting I would choose sentinel every time, and in all honesty - lack of boredom I would choose sentinel every time.

[Deleted User]

I wouldn't say either class is inherently better than the other. Certainly wouldn't make a black and white statement of 'choose <x> every time' either.

Hunting they're both largely fine now. Thrust is faster than maul though, now that reflexes is no longer a thing. They both have their own benefits, where I wouldn't really say one is better than the other. Druid does require artifact armour, though (if you're giving SoA bonus to the Sentinel). But druid has Panacea (staff is equivalent to barkskin, except it's all-resist physical AND magical [no unblockable, so not all-resist]) and Vigour.

1v1 they're both very strong. Druid is easily more deadly if they know their shit, though. The fact their raw damage- disregarding the prep itself- is high even to dragons should say a lot; no need to threaten affs when half the time you're getting your health chunked through. They kill momentum classes easily enough, though, to the point I would bet on the Druid 10/10 times, having a passive and 2 active heals on top of bind. They also outprep everyone except maybe Psion (and 'new' Priest? I dunno, haven't seen it in action).

Saying Sentinel > Druid in group every time is rather questionable, as well. Better LoS, on-demand binds, grove rez, portals, grove summon, able to prismatic other people, able to cure other people, anti-totem without needing a runie, anti blackwind/astral. That's not including everything in Reclamation, as well. Which one you'd want in a group is all dependent on the classes you have, saying you'd choose sent > druid every time is just plain silly. Hydra is very flexible with the things it can do, and with high damage groups there's incinerate as an ever-present danger as well. Traps are good, the aff pressure from Sentinel is good, neither are really gonna make or break things. Its limb prep contribution in groups is kinda awkward to keep track of.

Boredom is an iffy thing to touch on. It's subjective and doesn't have any real bearing on what was asked. People enjoy different things, and both classes have challenges and hurdles to get past.

Telinus

Pyori said:

I wouldn't say either class is inherently better than the other. Certainly wouldn't make a black and white statement of 'choose <x> every time' either.

Hunting they're both largely fine now. Thrust is faster than maul though, now that reflexes is no longer a thing. They both have their own benefits, where I wouldn't really say one is better than the other. Druid does require artifact armour, though (if you're giving SoA bonus to the Sentinel). But druid has Panacea (staff is equivalent to barkskin, except it's all-resist physical AND magical [no unblockable, so not all-resist]) and Vigour.

1v1 they're both very strong. Druid is easily more deadly if they know their shit, though. The fact their raw damage- disregarding the prep itself- is high even to dragons should say a lot; no need to threaten affs when half the time you're getting your health chunked through. They kill momentum classes easily enough, though, to the point I would bet on the Druid 10/10 times, having a passive and 2 active heals on top of bind. They also outprep everyone except maybe Psion (and 'new' Priest? I dunno, haven't seen it in action).

Saying Sentinel > Druid in group every time is rather questionable, as well. Better LoS, on-demand binds, grove rez, portals, grove summon, able to prismatic other people, able to cure other people, anti-totem without needing a runie, anti blackwind/astral. That's not including everything in Reclamation, as well. Which one you'd want in a group is all dependent on the classes you have, saying you'd choose sent > druid every time is just plain silly. Hydra is very flexible with the things it can do, and with high damage groups there's incinerate as an ever-present danger as well. Traps are good, the aff pressure from Sentinel is good, neither are really gonna make or break things. Its limb prep contribution in groups is kinda awkward to keep track of.

Boredom is an iffy thing to touch on. It's subjective and doesn't have any real bearing on what was asked. People enjoy different things, and both classes have challenges and hurdles to get past.

It was more a personal "I would choose sentinel every time" as opposed to a "You should choose sentinel every time". If I've implied that mechanically Sentinel is 100% the guaranteed correct choice, I apologise. Personally, for me, I would choose sentinel every time.

Mizik

Druid kill is 100% guaranteed if they prep before you can kill, which is very fast.

Definitely broken.

Malaize

So since I ended up picking sentinel, what's the ideal stats for one? Are there pros and cons to strength builds and con builds?

Caelan

Preferred stats are all MAX.

Just kidding. There is another series of posts in the Sentinel (Class Only) section that has discussions on this. Essentially, CON is better but..  read up before making your own decision.

Telinus

Caelan said:

Preferred stats are all MAX.

Just kidding. There is another series of posts in the Sentinel (Class Only) section that has discussions on this. Essentially, CON is better but..  read up before making your own decision.

I'd go con spec personally, strength doesn't impact skullbash anymore (afaik) and the other stats aren't massively necessary (int/dex).