Sentinel, Druid, DW and Knight classes - aff tracking requirements?

Caled

Hopefully this isn't just another '"what's a simple PVP class'" thread. I've read a lot of them and yes, 2H knights. Loud and clear.

My character is trans most skills. Missing a few minis, and has a SoA plus endurance ring. I am returning here after many years in Aetolia, and my #1 requirement is to NOT use an AI offense and comprehensive target tracking system. Been there, done that, liked it better before it was a requirement to compete in Aetolia. Somewhere between all manual and semi-manual is where I want to be.

For sentimental reasons, I don't want to drop sentinel class entirely, but I've been reading about the class, looking through posted logs etc, and that's where I'm getting worried. Dismember is maybe possible. I don't mind tracking limb prep - I can display the info in my GUI and manual the offense. It's a bit more complex than just limb prep, but seems doable.

Question 1:
But petrify, ew. Does anyone manual that, and how? The requirements are turning me off the class. The kill route seems almost designed with aff tracking in mind.


Question 2:
If I were to work towards multiclassing (need a few levels yet) so I can keep the sentinel class in the background, and PVP as something more manageable, what are my options? Here are my thoughts based on research but no actual experience with the new Achaea:

     1.  I could multiclass druid. I think I could manual it quite well. It seems like a simpler class to play, so good for me to learn with. Has the advantage of sharing an offensive artefact (handaxe) with sentinel, but the disadvantage of not being compatible with SoA.

     2.  I could multiclass runewarden, and have all the specs at my disposal if I get bored. 2H and DWB both appeal for various reasons, and if I felt like trying SnB I already have the shield. But the shield would again be mostly useless as I will be bashing for a long time yet, and really it's DWB that interests me most, and 2H second.

     3. Depthswalker
         Well, I don't know much about this class. Even researching it, I don't know. By best guess that their affliction process is 'smart aff attacks', where a single skill applies aff1, or aff2 if aff1 is present, etc. I have no idea how 'manual-able' the class is, but it seems like it could be a fun class to play and the SoA would be useful to it.

     4. Another class? Monk maybe?

I'm asking these questions now, because I also have the option of starting a new character with retirement credits. I have almost enough to match what Caled has, so if I'm better off starting fresh I'd rather do that straight away, before I spend more time on him.


One last thing: I'm okay with semi manual. I don't mind some basic tracking - limb damage, paralysis, rebounding, entanglements etc - I just want to be in control, and keep the scripting to a minimum.

Antonius

Sure, it's a hybrid class. It has options to obtain kills that don't require you to understand the intricacies of affliction combat. I don't see how that makes it the simplest affliction class though, because if you're just spamming degeneration you're not playing it as an affliction class, you're playing it as a damage class. That seems a bit like saying Dual Cutting is the simplest limb damage class (specialisation) because you can spam curare/prefarar doubleslashes against low health targets and ignore limb damage mechanics entirely.

Depthswalker as a package may be a simpler class because it has non-affliction options, but those shouldn't be factored in when discussing its potential or simplicity as an actual affliction class. If somebody comes along who actually wants to play Depthswalker as an affliction class (i.e. go down one of the potential routes to lock opponents) then they're going to pretty quickly find that they need to do all of the same things that other affliction classes do, and that smart afflicting sometimes just means the combination of afflictions you can give at any one time is much more limited.

I also don't really agree that the decision to use paralyse/clumsy as an Apostate - because you want to give clumsiness and they cure paralysis first - is any more complicated than the decision to use curare/degeneration as a Depthswalker because you want to achieve the same thing. I'll happily concede that the decision to use paralyse/clumsy as an Apostate is more complicated than the decision to use curare/degeneration because eventually you'll start doing a load of damage (but again, that's DW as a damage class [that tangentially happens to use some afflictions], not as an affliction class) though.

Kiet

You can manual every single aff class in the game and the idea that you can't is bizarre and ahistorical. The only classes that are even sort of difficult to manual are occultist (rng) shikudo (complex) and shaman (absurd pace).

Petrify is by far one of the simplest aff kills in the game, if you don't like that one you won't like any aff kills, basically, which is okay! Just focus on limb classes.

Druid, 2h, and dwb are all pretty light or nonexistent re: affs.

Depthswalker is the simplest aff class, but if petrify is turning you off I'm not sure if you like aff classes at all, like I said.

Monk is super easy to manual unless you're shikudo.

Caled

Part of my issue is that I am not, and probably never will be, an alias pvper. Keybindings (or touch screen gui) all the way for me. I'm not claiming it is impossible to manual the aff classes, just that for me, especially at this time, it's daunting and really unlikely. 

I manualled a wardancer in early imperian, so I'm not a complete stranger to aff classes. But I did that with sequential keybindings, looping venom combos while waiting for certain mistakes, then capitalising on those mistakes (usually with transfix). I can't see how I can translate that to sentinel here, but maybe I'm overestimating the complexity of the class and kill route.

DW though, with smart afflicting, might be okay. I could fit the attacks into keybindings, but I'm not sure how much 'tracking' is required. I don't mean AK level of tracking, but presumably I need to recognise when I'm far enough ahead and can transition into bridging or kill moves. So with the right highlights and alerts, I need to do some basic tracking in my head.


Maybe this is just me not understanding the class, or maybe you're right and aff classes are just not for me. I AM looking for something with a lot of utility and usefulness in groups though, and preferably something I can use my SoA with.

[Deleted User]

A lot of Sentinel's complexity goes away when you stop and realise realistically you're only ever gonna be swapping 1 animal.

Lemming + X is always the goto, regardless of what route you go. And if you use lemming, you summon it right back. X is usually cycled between wolf and butterfly for the most part, occasionally you'll swap to raven/fox for more kelp affs. Make sure to have 'order entourage kill person' in all your combos, since resummoning won't make them automatically aggressive.

Axes are in no way needed, though they will help the skullbash/dismember route immensely by making the limb-prepping a lot faster (also axes ignore rebounding, so there's that too).

Depthswalker is pretty highly comparable to how Berserker (wardancer) works nowadays in Imperian, in that the class largely plays itself while you build towards the kill.


Petrify really is just looping curare/doublestrike + wolf/butterfly while lemming does passive confusion. Then when you see them not focus after eating goldenseal (meaning they didn't cure impatience) your chances of being able to petrify them are damn near guaranteed.

Sylvan is another possibility, its innate tankiness makes the lack of SoA not really that big of a deal. There's also Magi, whose bashing is supposedly not that bad now after their buffs. You could also work on attaining either of the elemental lords!

Antonius

What makes DW the "simplest aff class" and "largely play itself"?

[Deleted User]

Antonius said:

What makes DW the "simplest aff class" and "largely play itself"?

In the sense that it removes a lot of necessary decision making that most aff classes have to make (when starting out, at least), because until you start fighting the higher tier of people you really only need to do curare/timeloop (depending on the instill, and what they just ate [bloodroot/bellwort]) and you'll get places. The instill will cover what second aff they're getting without further input from you. Much in the same way that with Berserker in Imperian you pretty much just have to pick what shield hit you wanna do, and it'll smartly stack affs itself.

Compared to say... Apostate, where you're constantly needing to pick both affs that you wanna give them, and hope you're not wasting any hits. Even Alchemist, if you're truewracking a ton (especially so given sanguine's requirement to give paralysis), but that's an entirely different argument.

That's the sort of thing that makes Depthswalker the newbie-friendly affliction class. It obviously still takes some effort to play well, and to a good degree... But it's definitely the simplest, when it comes to building affs.

Cooper

Antonius said:

What makes DW the "simplest aff class" and "largely play itself"?

At the lower/midish/unartied levels you can beat just about anyone by using attune, reap curare with a random instill, and throw timeloop in randomly. Use the follow ability about 10 seconds in and you're good to go! 

Not going to work on the mega artied or more competent PKers of course. 

Telinus

Just a heads up, lemming no longer gives passive confusion, so you'd keep raven out now for the passive affliction.
Depthswalker is pretty easy to just randomly hit with stuff and do damage, though if you want to beat people on any consistent basis you need to decide on an attack path

Sentinel petrify is pretty simple in terms of what you need to afflict to pull off the kill, which makes it pretty easy to track manually. I had no issues with dismember or petrify both manually or automated when I eventually wanted to try out automating it

DW is pretty simple in concept, hit them with damage + random afflictions and drains etc. but becomes more complicated as you start wanting to try different approaches.

Both can be done with Macro's or aliases - I used macros and some aliases for limb prep on sentinel + macros for doublestrike - I used a toggle to switch macros from handaxe to doublestrike for limb hits and for handaxe throws.

Minifie

Antonius said:

Sure, it's a hybrid class. It has options to obtain kills that don't require you to understand the intricacies of affliction combat. I don't see how that makes it the simplest affliction class though, because if you're just spamming degeneration you're not playing it as an affliction class, you're playing it as a damage class. That seems a bit like saying Dual Cutting is the simplest limb damage class (specialisation) because you can spam curare/prefarar doubleslashes against low health targets and ignore limb damage mechanics entirely.

Depthswalker as a package may be a simpler class because it has non-affliction options, but those shouldn't be factored in when discussing its potential or simplicity as an actual affliction class. If somebody comes along who actually wants to play Depthswalker as an affliction class (i.e. go down one of the potential routes to lock opponents) then they're going to pretty quickly find that they need to do all of the same things that other affliction classes do, and that smart afflicting sometimes just means the combination of afflictions you can give at any one time is much more limited.

I also don't really agree that the decision to use paralyse/clumsy as an Apostate - because you want to give clumsiness and they cure paralysis first - is any more complicated than the decision to use curare/degeneration as a Depthswalker because you want to achieve the same thing. I'll happily concede that the decision to use paralyse/clumsy as an Apostate is more complicated than the decision to use curare/degeneration because eventually you'll start doing a load of damage (but again, that's DW as a damage class [that tangentially happens to use some afflictions], not as an affliction class) though.

Kiet

the idea that aff class gameplay = locking is kind of reductive, though. You do damage through affing as a DW, and you have a lot of non-locking, non-damage routes that depend on affing. The same way no one would doubt that a non-lock tzantza is anything but an aff route.

There isn't any other aff class that has a lower skill floor than most of DW routes.  That's all there is to it, and that doesn't make it bad or anything, just suitable for people who are starting out.

Telinus

Minifie said:

Antonius said:

Sure, it's a hybrid class. It has options to obtain kills that don't require you to understand the intricacies of affliction combat. I don't see how that makes it the simplest affliction class though, because if you're just spamming degeneration you're not playing it as an affliction class, you're playing it as a damage class. That seems a bit like saying Dual Cutting is the simplest limb damage class (specialisation) because you can spam curare/prefarar doubleslashes against low health targets and ignore limb damage mechanics entirely.

Depthswalker as a package may be a simpler class because it has non-affliction options, but those shouldn't be factored in when discussing its potential or simplicity as an actual affliction class. If somebody comes along who actually wants to play Depthswalker as an affliction class (i.e. go down one of the potential routes to lock opponents) then they're going to pretty quickly find that they need to do all of the same things that other affliction classes do, and that smart afflicting sometimes just means the combination of afflictions you can give at any one time is much more limited.

I also don't really agree that the decision to use paralyse/clumsy as an Apostate - because you want to give clumsiness and they cure paralysis first - is any more complicated than the decision to use curare/degeneration as a Depthswalker because you want to achieve the same thing. I'll happily concede that the decision to use paralyse/clumsy as an Apostate is more complicated than the decision to use curare/degeneration because eventually you'll start doing a load of damage (but again, that's DW as a damage class [that tangentially happens to use some afflictions], not as an affliction class) though.

He's also:

Shaman, Priest, Paladin, Alchemist, Bard, Mage, Runewarden, Serpent, Jester

(Probably)

Think I forgot Monk, too.

Minifie

Telinus said:

Minifie said:

Antonius said:

Sure, it's a hybrid class. It has options to obtain kills that don't require you to understand the intricacies of affliction combat. I don't see how that makes it the simplest affliction class though, because if you're just spamming degeneration you're not playing it as an affliction class, you're playing it as a damage class. That seems a bit like saying Dual Cutting is the simplest limb damage class (specialisation) because you can spam curare/prefarar doubleslashes against low health targets and ignore limb damage mechanics entirely.

Depthswalker as a package may be a simpler class because it has non-affliction options, but those shouldn't be factored in when discussing its potential or simplicity as an actual affliction class. If somebody comes along who actually wants to play Depthswalker as an affliction class (i.e. go down one of the potential routes to lock opponents) then they're going to pretty quickly find that they need to do all of the same things that other affliction classes do, and that smart afflicting sometimes just means the combination of afflictions you can give at any one time is much more limited.

I also don't really agree that the decision to use paralyse/clumsy as an Apostate - because you want to give clumsiness and they cure paralysis first - is any more complicated than the decision to use curare/degeneration as a Depthswalker because you want to achieve the same thing. I'll happily concede that the decision to use paralyse/clumsy as an Apostate is more complicated than the decision to use curare/degeneration because eventually you'll start doing a load of damage (but again, that's DW as a damage class [that tangentially happens to use some afflictions], not as an affliction class) though.

He's also:

Shaman, Priest, Paladin, Alchemist, Bard, Mage, Runewarden, Serpent, Jester

(Probably)

Think I forgot Monk, too.

Should see the doctor, I think your humerus is broken.

Mathilda

Antonius has 12 classes, as far as I know. Missing one more.

[Deleted User]

Antonius said:

I don't see how that makes it the simplest affliction class though, because if you're just spamming degeneration you're not playing it as an affliction class, you're playing it as a damage class.

I'm pretty sure I said why it was the simplest. I didn't even say it was just degeneration, but the instills as a whole (hence the comparison to Berserker in the first place from Caled...) which afford opportunities to simplify a lot of your offence.

Person has asthma, clumsiness, weariness -> eats kelp. Serpent you're chancing half of your combo if you choose to keep up the kelp stack. Depthswalker you slap them with timeloop/degeneration; either it turns out they ate for clumsy/weariness and they get that aff right back (plus timeloop as a high prio affliction) ... Or they get hit with paralysis (which means they cured asthma with that kelp eat, and you can follow up) and timeloop. It's really difficult to fall behind as Depthswalker compared to every other momentum class.

The skill floor is considerably lower than virtually any other affliction class. That is to say: the skill needed to do well with the class, isn't particularly high. Ergo, it is the simplest.

Zelisia

If I can managed 40 kills with DW it’s a pretty simple class. In the hands of even marginally competent people it’s very effective. I saw it as training wheels. It was great for me to start building the understanding of what I was looking for in combat and was a helluva lot more forgiving than other aff classes. That said I am not even close to competent so take my two cents with a grain of salt.

Aralaya

75% of my kills are from me being DW.
The fact that I can kill anyone with a class tells you that its easy

Dochitha

Agreed DW isn't too hard to start killing people compared to other classes. Turns zero to hero at times... If you don't die and they don't run, eventually they die, even if you just repeatedly do the same thing.

Shirszae

The important thing is that you have fun with it, whether simple or complex.  

Caled

Pyori said:

Antonius said:

I don't see how that makes it the simplest affliction class though, because if you're just spamming degeneration you're not playing it as an affliction class, you're playing it as a damage class.

I'm pretty sure I said why it was the simplest. I didn't even say it was just degeneration, but the instills as a whole (hence the comparison to Berserker in the first place from Caled...) which afford opportunities to simplify a lot of your offence.

I didn't compare it with berserker, that was coincidence - I actually had no idea wardancers had become berserkers. When I played they were just a dual-aff class (no smart affs) that could use shield+broadsword on a 2 second balance (or dual rapiers to be much faster). Combined with the nastier toxins imperian had, such a oxalis, a single venom that cured blind AND deaf at the same time, I found it manageable and fun.

But I was playing both Aet and Impy a lot at that time (single, cruisy job, no girlfriend hehe), so my ability to read through spam was good. There's no way I could follow hat's going on now and I won't be able to play enough to retrain all that.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the help. I'm no closer to figuring out what to do, of course - but I have around 15 levels to get before it matters so I'll bash, get a few spars in and maybe figure it out by then.

Antonius

Caled said:

Pyori said:

Antonius said:

I don't see how that makes it the simplest affliction class though, because if you're just spamming degeneration you're not playing it as an affliction class, you're playing it as a damage class.

I'm pretty sure I said why it was the simplest. I didn't even say it was just degeneration, but the instills as a whole (hence the comparison to Berserker in the first place from Caled...) which afford opportunities to simplify a lot of your offence.

I didn't compare it with berserker, that was coincidence - I actually had no idea wardancers had become berserkers. When I played they were just a dual-aff class (no smart affs) that could use shield+broadsword on a 2 second balance (or dual rapiers to be much faster). Combined with the nastier toxins imperian had, such a oxalis, a single venom that cured blind AND deaf at the same time, I found it manageable and fun.

But I was playing both Aet and Impy a lot at that time (single, cruisy job, no girlfriend hehe), so my ability to read through spam was good. There's no way I could follow hat's going on now and I won't be able to play enough to retrain all that.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the help. I'm no closer to figuring out what to do, of course - but I have around 15 levels to get before it matters so I'll bash, get a few spars in and maybe figure it out by then.

Colour code the herb/mineral eats (one colour for each herb/mineral), then you just need to watch for the colours. No reading required.

Caled

Telinus said:

Sentinel petrify is pretty simple in terms of what you need to afflict to pull off the kill, which makes it pretty easy to track manually. I had no issues with dismember or petrify both manually or automated when I eventually wanted to try out automating it

I've heard this a few times, but it doesn't really seem that simple. They need to be un-blind and have 4 other affs from a subset of affs that the sentinel can deliver, some of them through specific attacks. 

How do I manage that without scripting the tracking at least? I see I could manual the attacks if I could at least display their current affs in the gui, but affs don't look that easy to track here.

I figure I'm missing something. Pyori said this:

Petrify really is just looping curare/doublestrike + wolf/butterfly while lemming does passive confusion. Then when you see them not focus after eating goldenseal (meaning they didn't cure impatience) your chances of being able to petrify them are damn near guaranteed.

But I don't see how having confusion and impatience guarantees a petrify when they need 2 more affs + unblind. 

Not saying anyone is wrong, just that I don't understand.

Telinus

Caled said:

Telinus said:

Sentinel petrify is pretty simple in terms of what you need to afflict to pull off the kill, which makes it pretty easy to track manually. I had no issues with dismember or petrify both manually or automated when I eventually wanted to try out automating it

I've heard this a few times, but it doesn't really seem that simple. They need to be un-blind and have 4 other affs from a subset of affs that the sentinel can deliver, some of them through specific attacks. 

How do I manage that without scripting the tracking at least? I see I could manual the attacks if I could at least display their current affs in the gui, but affs don't look that easy to track here.

I figure I'm missing something. Pyori said this:

Petrify really is just looping curare/doublestrike + wolf/butterfly while lemming does passive confusion. Then when you see them not focus after eating goldenseal (meaning they didn't cure impatience) your chances of being able to petrify them are damn near guaranteed.

But I don't see how having confusion and impatience guarantees a petrify when they need 2 more affs + unblind. 

Not saying anyone is wrong, just that I don't understand.

Practice, and highlights.

It's quite simple when you think about it, you're manually enraging, highlight the passive line from the raven and just keep a count in your head - if you give curare and impatience and they eat bloodroot - they have impatience etc - add in things such as wolf enrage, badger enrage etc and you can stack afflictions - only mentally count the ones you need and add an enrage before petrify to unblind with butterfly or give an affliction you need - so you enrage animal into petrify - I made a herb highlighting script that may help you out. I think you can still find it on the forums or I can share it for you again.

Once you start to practice more, it becomes a lot easier - I use to just count to 7 for handaxes on each limb (just have to remember which count for each) etc. and just know when they eat 1 herb there's a chance its cured X or Y and just go with it.

Nothing is guaranteed now with the changes to expert diagnoser, so everyones got to be smarter with how they afflict, such as if they don't smoke - asthma, if they don't focus - impatience, if they don't apply sileris - probably slickness (unless they don't keep it up)

Play smart and practice.

Caled

Thanks for all the replies. Still don't know what I'll end up doing but for now I'll just try out sentinel a bit while I bash and take it from there.

[Deleted User]

Caled said:

Petrify really is just looping curare/doublestrike + wolf/butterfly while lemming does passive confusion. Then when you see them not focus after eating goldenseal (meaning they didn't cure impatience) your chances of being able to petrify them are damn near guaranteed.

But I don't see how having confusion and impatience guarantees a petrify when they need 2 more affs + unblind. 

Not saying anyone is wrong, just that I don't understand.

Butterfly unblinds, gives dizziness if they're not blind.
Wolf gives hallucinations.
Doublestrike gives epilepsy if they already have impatience.
Substitute lemming for raven in the above sequence, for paranoia.
You can also give eurypteria for recklessness, if you can fit it in.

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/Kkw8CmzF
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/N_WOiEWb

There's two examples, just replace lemming with raven. The key really is just noticing whether or not they focus after eating goldenseal/plumbum.

eta: just realised that's from when I forgot to put hallucinations in my petrify counter. Woops.