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Achaean Book Club Feb/March: Ancillary Justice
After a few days with the poll, the book with the most votes was Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie. You can find places to purchase it from at the link.
The Handmaid's Tale, Margaret Atwood
The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. Le Guin
To the Lighthouse, Virginia Woolf
A Wizard of Earthsea, Ursula K. Le Guin
Thread Rules:
- Book club #1 will run from February 14 to March 14.
- For the first two weeks, refrain from posting spoilers unless clearly tagged (there's a spoiler option in the formatting options for posts up in the bar that lets you bold etc.) and note right before the spoiler up to what chapter/page people need to have read to not be spoiled by them.
- When week three starts (March 1st), you may start posting untagged spoilers and discussing the book with the idea that everyone's finished reading it. If you have NOT finished reading it, you should probably stay out of the latter posts of the thread after March 1st until you do!
- While this thread is active, we'll be voting on next month's book. Feel free to discuss that, too. The books this time are the same as last time + 1 to replace the winner.
Starting questions for discussion (but feel free to discuss whatever comes to mind, or post quotes you like, or ask questions if you're lost).
- How does the world of Ancillary Justice differ from our own? I don't mean technologically, since it's sci-fi, but things on the social and personal level. If we had the same technology, how different are the lives of the residents of this book? Are there cases where the technological and the social differences are inseparable?
- Expanding on the first question, how does the language spoken in the book convey these differences?
- Breq is not exactly human. How important is this to the story? Would the book have worked with just a human protagonist? How does this impact Breq's development?
- How is hierarchy treated in Ancillary Justice? How do class/social status play out, and why do they play out that way?
- The book deals often with the idea of personal and group identity. What are some examples of this, and how does it define identity, through these?
- What are the basic themes of the book you're picking up on, and how do you feel about them?
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, Philip K. Dick
It was January 2021, and Rick Deckard had a license to kill.
Somewhere among the hordes of humans out there, lurked several rogue androids. Deckard's assignment--find them and then..."retire" them. Trouble was, the androids all looked exactly like humans, and they didn't want to be found!
Somewhere among the hordes of humans out there, lurked several rogue androids. Deckard's assignment--find them and then..."retire" them. Trouble was, the androids all looked exactly like humans, and they didn't want to be found!
The Goblin Emperor, Katherine Addison/Sarah Monette
The youngest,
half-goblin son of the Emperor has lived his entire life in exile,
distant from the Imperial Court and the deadly intrigue that suffuses
it. But when his father and three sons in line for the throne are killed
in an "accident," he has no choice but to take his place as the only
surviving rightful heir.
Entirely unschooled in the art of court politics, he has no friends, no advisors, and the sure knowledge that whoever assassinated his father and brothers could make an attempt on his life at any moment.
Surrounded by sycophants eager to curry favor with the naïve new emperor, and overwhelmed by the burdens of his new life, he can trust nobody. Amid the swirl of plots to depose him, offers of arranged marriages, and the specter of the unknown conspirators who lurk in the shadows, he must quickly adjust to life as the Goblin Emperor. All the while, he is alone, and trying to find even a single friend... and hoping for the possibility of romance, yet also vigilant against the unseen enemies that threaten him, lest he lose his throne – or his life.
Entirely unschooled in the art of court politics, he has no friends, no advisors, and the sure knowledge that whoever assassinated his father and brothers could make an attempt on his life at any moment.
Surrounded by sycophants eager to curry favor with the naïve new emperor, and overwhelmed by the burdens of his new life, he can trust nobody. Amid the swirl of plots to depose him, offers of arranged marriages, and the specter of the unknown conspirators who lurk in the shadows, he must quickly adjust to life as the Goblin Emperor. All the while, he is alone, and trying to find even a single friend... and hoping for the possibility of romance, yet also vigilant against the unseen enemies that threaten him, lest he lose his throne – or his life.
The Handmaid's Tale, Margaret Atwood
Offred is a Handmaid in
the Republic of Gilead. She may leave the home of the Commander and his
wife once a day to walk to food markets whose signs are now pictures
instead of words because women are no longer allowed to read. She must
lie on her back once a month and pray that the Commander makes her
pregnant, because in an age of declining births, Offred and the other
Handmaids are valued only if their ovaries are viable. Offred can
remember the years before, when she lived and made love with her
husband, Luke; when she played with and protected her daughter; when she
had a job, money of her own, and access to knowledge. But all of that
is gone now...
The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. Le Guin
A groundbreaking work of science fiction, The Left Hand of Darkness
tells the story of a lone human emissary to Winter, an alien world
whose inhabitants can choose -and change - their gender. His goal is to
facilitate Winter's inclusion in a growing intergalactic civilization.
But to do so he must bridge the gulf between his own views and those of
the completely dissimilar culture that he encounters.
Embracing the aspects of psychology, society, and human emotion on an alien world, The Left Hand of Darkness stands as a landmark achievement in the annals of intellectual science fiction.
Parable of the Sower, Octavia E. ButlerEmbracing the aspects of psychology, society, and human emotion on an alien world, The Left Hand of Darkness stands as a landmark achievement in the annals of intellectual science fiction.
In 2025, with the world descending into madness and anarchy, one woman begins a fateful journey toward a better future
Lauren Olamina and her family live in one of the only safe neighborhoods remaining on the outskirts of Los Angeles. Behind the walls of their defended enclave, Lauren’s father, a preacher, and a handful of other citizens try to salvage what remains of a culture that has been destroyed by drugs, disease, war, and chronic water shortages. While her father tries to lead people on the righteous path, Lauren struggles with hyperempathy, a condition that makes her extraordinarily sensitive to the pain of others.
When fire destroys their compound, Lauren’s family is killed and she is forced out into a world that is fraught with danger. With a handful of other refugees, Lauren must make her way north to safety, along the way conceiving a revolutionary idea that may mean salvation for all mankind.
Lauren Olamina and her family live in one of the only safe neighborhoods remaining on the outskirts of Los Angeles. Behind the walls of their defended enclave, Lauren’s father, a preacher, and a handful of other citizens try to salvage what remains of a culture that has been destroyed by drugs, disease, war, and chronic water shortages. While her father tries to lead people on the righteous path, Lauren struggles with hyperempathy, a condition that makes her extraordinarily sensitive to the pain of others.
When fire destroys their compound, Lauren’s family is killed and she is forced out into a world that is fraught with danger. With a handful of other refugees, Lauren must make her way north to safety, along the way conceiving a revolutionary idea that may mean salvation for all mankind.
To the Lighthouse, Virginia Woolf
The serene and maternal
Mrs. Ramsay, the tragic yet absurd Mr. Ramsay, and their children and
assorted guests are on holiday on the Isle of Skye. From the seemingly
trivial postponement of a visit to a nearby lighthouse, Woolf constructs
a remarkable, moving examination of the complex tensions and
allegiances of family life and the conflict between men and women.
As time winds its way through their lives, the Ramsays face, alone and simultaneously, the greatest of human challenges and its greatest triumph--the human capacity for change.
As time winds its way through their lives, the Ramsays face, alone and simultaneously, the greatest of human challenges and its greatest triumph--the human capacity for change.
A Wizard of Earthsea, Ursula K. Le Guin
Ged, the greatest sorcerer in all Earthsea, was called Sparrowhawk in his reckless youth.
Hungry for power and knowledge, Sparrowhawk tampered with long-held secrets and loosed a terrible shadow upon the world. This is the tale of his testing, how he mastered the mighty words of power, tamed an ancient dragon, and crossed death's threshold to restore the balance.
Hungry for power and knowledge, Sparrowhawk tampered with long-held secrets and loosed a terrible shadow upon the world. This is the tale of his testing, how he mastered the mighty words of power, tamed an ancient dragon, and crossed death's threshold to restore the balance.
3
Comments
That aside, I've read this entire trilogy before, so I have some thoughts on it I'll post up tomorrow sometime.
Reaching down with a massive hand, Sartan lifts your head and draws a taloned finger across your throat, the wound closing as He does so.
Come join the Achaea discord!
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
My first thought was that it was very unusual and interesting to read a book from an AI's point of view. I quite liked it.
Not sure if this is really a spoiler, but:
I thought at first that the author made a mistake when the main character had feelings, but I found out later that it was intentional, that "ships have feelings".
Be dazzled by universal time!
Reaching down with a massive hand, Sartan lifts your head and draws a taloned finger across your throat, the wound closing as He does so.
Reaching down with a massive hand, Sartan lifts your head and draws a taloned finger across your throat, the wound closing as He does so.
(mild spoilers up to the near end of the book):
I liked that humans in the story still stick to this idea, somehow. We have kef shown as something people try to use in a way to become purely logical, and Breq points out how pointless it is in achieving that, even if it does block your feelings.
At one point there's this exchange between a random soldier and Breq when she was full Justice and she narrates: "Without feelings insignificant decisions become excruciating attempts to compare endless arrays of inconsequential things. It’s just easier to handle those with emotions." Later on, Mianaai says that the AIs were all designed with emotions because that'd make them want to serve, rather than to just do something logical like exterminate everyone to save resources, or whatever the example she used was.
It's an interesting inversion of the usual view of emotions and AIs both!
I have more thoughts on the book, too, mainly about how interesting its way of dealing with what is 'identity' is, but I'll write on that more later, since I think most people aren't done yet.
I also think the demonstrations of the complexity of language and that it's also kind of meaningless in that words are words, but groups take those words very seriously.
I'm curious as to what you guys thought about the gender/language stuff in the book. When the book first came out, that was literally all I heard about it. Nothing about the plot or characters or concept. Just "OMG, everybody in the book is called 'she', this is the best thing ever, everybody should read it". So when I actually got around to reading it, I was sort of surprised to learn that the gendered langauge thing isn't really a big deal. Breq the AI is bad at picking up on gender cues, and that's all there really is to it.
To me, it was less about gender issues and more about separating Breq from humanity, because the humans never seem to have issues with it so they obviously can tell. I also think that the gender/language thing got it way more attention then it would have otherwise gotten.
That aside: To the best of my knowledge, there are only three main characters in the book whose genders are explicitly stated:
[spoiler]
1) Breq(well, Breq's body) is identified as female in the bar at the start when somebody calls her 'girl'.
2) Seivaarden is identified as male by Breq, which I assume she knows from his time on the Justice of Toren.
3) Anaander Mianaai is referred to as a 'him' by the doctor Breq gets the gun from. As well, they're described with a baritone voice, which is a typically male trait.
[/spoiler]
Anybody catch any others? Anybody have any assumptions on who is what?
Radchaai humans also use 'she' for everyone, the only ones that use different pronouns are those from outside the Radch, like those from Nilt or elsewhere. For it to be about Breq being an AI bad at gender, there'd have to be an implication that anyone else that's Radchaii even acknowledges gender. It's not 'obvious' to Radchaai humans because it's not something that actually exists for them. There's not a 'real' gender behind it to them.
Radchaii identity is based on many things, primarily class and House as far as social divisions go. Gender is just completely irrelevant to them, because their society has decided or realized that it has no point. At no point does anyone's gender according to other cultures in the book make a real difference, it's just something that confuses Breq because she was 'raised' for 3000 years without gender.
It's not a concept that's entirely new--Left Hand of Darkness does it, too--but it is one that's uncommon, that's why people probably made a big deal out of it. It's not, though, as you said, the main theme, just a part of one of the main themes which is identity.
As far as Identity, the exploration of identity and understanding Breq's identity has been fascinating. I think the self-awareness is a huge part and the change from almost omniscient awareness by being everywhere to only having a single body was interesting, I really liked the quote below, as well as a few other comments.
[spoiler] "Or is anyone's identity a matter of fragments held together by convenient or useful narrative, that in ordinary circumstances never reveals itself as a fiction? Or is it really a fiction?"
This was one of those quote that made me think for a moment and just nod. As people we grow and are shaped by so many things that happen in our lives and after a while they become memories, but they shape our identity beyond name/age/etc could some things be just stories we made up as kids to explain things? Also, as people who play RP based games, understanding identity and being able to create a separate identity is fascinating as well because we create new fiction and adapt daily to this fantasy world person's life, consequences, and experiences. However, Breq's identity isn't body=centric, which is a huge step back from the world we live in. At one point Breq is having a drink while listening to music and just buys beer but stops drinking because although it wouldn't effect Breq's mind, it effects the human body and would make her more sluggish. In our world, part of our identity is based on what you look like, how well you take care of yourself, how much you weigh. This removal of the gender, because AI inhabited so many different types of humans, and the focus on the mind is a major point within the story.
The concept of divinity, the familial hierarchies, and the use of idols all intrigue me. The Radch absorb religions because religion essentially doesn't mean anything to them, but yet they have idols and Breq who is AI has an idol as well is interesting because it shows Breq's uniqueness as well.
[/spoiler]
I wouldn't mind a discord chat for this. I admit I'm not 100% done, but I've been trying to make sure I have poignant parts to discuss with y'all instead of breezing through the story first and not being able to find specific parts in the story.
The ending was unsatisfactory. How did Justice of Town go from wanting to kill Anaander, to doing what "she" wanted? Maybe I need to read the rest of the series. But it was confusing. Sometimes it sounded like Justice only wanted to kill the Anaander that didn't have the code, sometimes it sounded like Justice wanted to kill all of Anaander.
The use of "she" both annoyed and fascinated me. I like to be able to picture characters, what they look like. But it was kind of meta, the language barrier extending beyond Breq to me. I liked the bit about the Nilt word for songs.
It was interesting, the concept of One Esk's identity versus Justice of Toren, the ship. It seemed that One Esk was slightly different, the one who loved Lieutenant Awn. But... it was not One Esk who shot Anaander Mianaaiaaaaaa (I think I spelled that right) in the face. So it is something to think about.
As for religion: I wouldn't say religion means nothing to the Radch. It's more that their religion is syncretist and pantheistic, a bit like the Roman religion. The Radch is very clearly based on the Roman Empire in many ways, and this is one of them. Rather than wipe out cultures, they absorb other cultures into their own, which affords them a degree of attachment to the Radch itself. Part of this is acknowledging that every other religion is valid. Minor gods are simply added to their pantheon, supreme deities are considered just another aspect of Amaat. The Baha'i have a similar view on religion, too.
I don't believe she happily went along with her new station, it's more that she realized she'd been thwarted completely (well, not completely, she still go to shoot a few Anaanders). All Anaander had to do was sing that song and she couldn't harm her, and this Anaander also promises her (though she's skeptical, of course) that things will change for the better, that she will make a difference. It's the kind of imperfect ending where things didn't go according to plan, it's less melodramatic and more realistic, imo. The 'hero' doesn't get to win, sometimes.
Our feelings aren't even, constant, or easily isolated. One Esk's love for Awn 'invaded' the rest of JoT, in a way. JoT even warns one of her other officers that One Esk might do something rash, but in the end JoT ends up doing it through One Var (or whoever it was) because she can't compartmentalize herself nearly as well as her designers or she herself expected her to.
Of course, like I said in an earlier post, the AIs were meant to feel. I found the quote I meant to highlight earlier:
'“And they’re armed ships, with engines capable of vaporizing planets. What am I going to do if they don’t want to obey me? Threaten them? With what?"
...
“That’s how they were made from the start, but their minds are complex, and it’s a tricky proposition. The original designers did that by giving them an overwhelming reason to want to obey. Which had advantages, and rather spectacular disadvantages. I couldn’t completely change what they were, I just… adjusted it to suit me. I made obeying me an overriding priority for them. But I confused the issue when I gave Justice of Toren two mes to obey, with conflicting aims. And then, I suspect, I unknowingly ordered the execution of a favorite. Didn't I?" She looked at me. "Not Justice of Toren's favorite, I wouldn't have been so foolish. But I never paid attention to you, I'd never have asked if someone was One Esk's favorite."'
So in some way it is their ability to feel that lets the ships compartmentalize the same way we do, to have conflicting goals even within themselves. It's One Esk that loved Awn, but her feelings spilled over.
It's nice to see people posting their thoughts, either way! I know sometimes if you finish early it seems a bit pointless, but I think we might as well post early finisher thoughts behind a spoielr tag so we don't forget later.
It was also interesting how it said "the rumor got around that Justice of Toren liked to sing, but I didn't really. The captains seemed to like it, and I tolerated the habit." But Breq obviously liked music. She picked up instruments wherever she saw them, went out of her way to attend a concert. Did it mean Justice of Toren tolerated One Esk's habit? Or did JoT start singing out of boredom, and grew to like it? Or did I misunderstand?
PS I looked up the songs that were listed in the appendix. It was interesting!