Artefact Pricing Discrepancies

Gilliam

Well aware there's already a topic on this but hoping a fresh thread can get some fresh attention. Besides, on the list of things I thought I'd never see a veil rework was waaayy higher than this so.

Artefact weapons. What gives with the dual wields? There has never been any statement given as to what justifies double the price for the same upgrade tier as far as I'm aware. If it's a money issue, add some cost to the spec swap Artie rather than making the barrier for players to outfit their main class artificially higher.

SoA/Paragon. Pay 200cr more to be able to absorb damage without wielding your shield. Sounds great. Suddenly though every player has access to elementals on top of dragons so everyone has got to shell out for morphing, shell out for a second set of armour and pries, and get a weapon forged for them to parry with whilst in elemental. Not big costs by any means but a little weird since you already own a 'better' SoA. Just let the paragon be TURNed once it's pried to become a shield. It's already magical.

Tldr; why do we seemingly need to buy things we already bought? IE lvlX weapon or SoA equivalent for paragon.

@Nicola @Makarios

Gilliam

Adding: this isn't my desire to pay less for more. If dual wield arties become realistically priced you can bet I'll be saving my pennies to get lvl3 scimitars. If I can use my SoA as a shield, the lvl3 longsword won't be far behind.

Trey

Gilliam said:

 If I can use my SoA as a shield, the lvl3 longsword won't be far behind.

Your SoA can be used as a shield, yes, and it's a good one!

Dochitha

Gilliam said:

Artefact weapons. What gives with the dual wields? There has never been any statement given as to what justifies double the price for the same upgrade tier as far as I'm aware. If it's a money issue, add some cost to the spec swap Artie rather than making the barrier for players to outfit their main class artificially higher.

I love that idea. My reasoning with Dual Wield costs is due to knight is a 4-in-1 class where you don't pay extra for the lessons to enjoy 4 styles, hence the cost in weapons. But yeah, reducing weapon cost but increase switching cost sounds like an idea.!

Shirszae

Thats not their stated reasoning for it, though. They've said, both in response to people's issues ig and here in the forum somewhere, that they just consider that the effect of each singular weapon is worth the cost for the effect it provides. I don't think most people agree when it comes to the dual-wielding specs, but at least It seems to have nothing to do with Weaponmastery 4-in-1 way of working.

Gilliam

Trey said:

Gilliam said:

 If I can use my SoA as a shield, the lvl3 longsword won't be far behind.

Your SoA can be used as a shield, yes, and it's a good one!

meant the paragon.

Kyrra

The paragon won’t act as an actual shield, no. It just blocks damage.

Sobriquet

So it's functionally worse than a shield. I can't bring myself to spend 1000cr on a benefit I already have, just can't use as a 3 of my 4 Knight Specs. If my Runie is supposed to be tanky enough without an SOA and it's benefits why can I use it in SnB? What defensively is different between that and my DWB or 2H. 

My SOA is infinitely more useful as I can use it as Jester and Dragon, yet costs less. I'm amazed anyone bought that Paragon outside of our usual big spenders.

Gilliam

@Sobriquet that's pretty much my point. I have it because I'm a 2h and DwC and nowhere near dragon. But add in dragon and elemental and that's half my classes that I can't use it for despite owning it and paying more for it. Just think it should be wieldable and honestly I'd take it without the 11/11 if it meant I could actually use the damn thing.

Nazihk

Sobriquet said:

 If my Runie is supposed to be tanky enough without an SOA and it's benefits why can I use it in SnB? What defensively is different between that and my DWB or 2H. 

To play the devil's advocate here, the defensive difference is that it can take Paladin Atalkez 36+ combos worth of setup in SnB which means that he needs to keep his defense up for much longer than he would as another knight spec. He's going to have to survive at least one setup attempt by the enemy, probably even 2 or 3.

Alyxeri

Nazihk said:

He's going to have to survive at least one setup attempt by the enemy, probably even 2 or 3.

I've heard even higher numbers than that, from him! I think he quoted 7 or 8 attempts when he was fighting Jhui and Proficy. It's pretty gross.

Solnir

Wait people can make it past attempt one against Jhui?

In line with the thread, though, I agree with everyone else. Dual wield specs get screwed over.

Jhui

Solnir said:

Wait people can make it past attempt one against Jhui?

In line with the thread, though, I agree with everyone else. Dual wield specs get screwed over.

No one can make it past my first attempt... because I don’t attempt anything anymore

Minifie

Jhui said:

Solnir said:

Wait people can make it past attempt one against Jhui?

In line with the thread, though, I agree with everyone else. Dual wield specs get screwed over.

No one can make it past my first attempt... because I don’t attempt anything anymore

Confirmed Jhui a one pump chump .

How's life big fella? Been away a while!

Atalkez

18 per limb vs Seragorn with forged, if I’m remembering right.

Nazihk

Yeah, I remember giving Atalkez shit about his 40 hit prep and he was like "Actually it's 48 hits ".

Armali

Alternatively, 5 axes and 2 slices per limb. And a lot of tumbling over piety/ghands.

Minifie

What if limbs damage for knights was normalised, and weapons just increased aff speed and raw damage? This would mean forged is still very strong, and we could bring prices of artie DWC down since it’s just like buying a single artie for speed’s sake.

DWB is a bit tougher, since obviously no affs, but potentially normalise and level 1-2-3 each brings limb hits down by 1? So dual level 1’s bring a limb down from 12 to 11, level 3s go from 12 to 9. You can potentially rebalance DWB a touch on this by making their raw damage a little weaker too. There is a lot more finicking that would need to be done, but I feel limb damage is the reason DW arties are still up there in prices.

Shirszae

Making anything afflict faster or hurt more than they do right now is a bad idea, imo. Specially when it comes to any of the knight classes.

Also, not sure how you'd go about normalizing limb prep between all the specs, since they seem to vary so wildly in time.

Trey

Shirszae said:

Making anything afflict faster or hurt more than they do right now is a bad idea, imo. Specially when it comes to any of the knight classes.

Also, not sure how you'd go about normalizing limb prep between all the specs, since they seem to vary so wildly in time.

For the latter, you don't have to normalize between specs, you would just need to normalize each spec balanced off of their hinder potential, I think. I'm not necessarily for the idea, but for the purposes of argument each spec doesn't have to prep at the same speed.

Reyson

That's basically where we are right now, though. DWB can't really afflict, uber fast breaks. 2h with warhammer, artied DWC, 2h with sword, DWC, SnB.

Parry bypass and the limbs each spec is hunting for being the other big limiter in prep speed, bringing SnB in line with, say, DWC (5-8 attacks mostly, depending on health and artie level) with how reliable its finishers are would be a pretty bad idea. 

SnB is in a bad place with limb damage right now, but I don't really think it should be made to be as quick as any of the other specs given the advantages it has for other things. 

Minifie

What I meant is artie weapons afflict at their current speed, not even faster. The idea is to keep them where they are but nerf all the things they do causing them to be worth 3200 instead of 1600.

Kyrra

I use a heavy sword that takes two hands to hold. I’d expect it to hurt a lot if I hit someone so not a fan of reduced damage unless I get a lot faster speed.

Reyson

I wasn't talkng about aff speed, I was talking about limb prep speed.

Dochitha

Minifie said:

What if limbs damage for knights was normalised, and weapons just increased aff speed and raw damage? This would mean forged is still very strong, and we could bring prices of artie DWC down since it’s just like buying a single artie for speed’s sake.

DWB is a bit tougher, since obviously no affs, but potentially normalise and level 1-2-3 each brings limb hits down by 1? So dual level 1’s bring a limb down from 12 to 11, level 3s go from 12 to 9. You can potentially rebalance DWB a touch on this by making their raw damage a little weaker too. There is a lot more finicking that would need to be done, but I feel limb damage is the reason DW arties are still up there in prices.

Currently for DWB, going from forged to L3, you are going to expect about 2 hits quicker prep, on most health ranges of PKers. At which point the improvement is noticeable depends on health ranges. It also isn't really "how many hits" but how much percent each hit goes into nearing a break across health ranges, so it's hard to just make them respect "hits", unless it's changed to like dragon or earth EL, where limb damage is fixed (normalise).

But if we do that (normalise) we just made it too easy for DWB as prep becomes so definitive. At least at current version, a good DWB is able to use: star star, star flail, flail star, flail flail, combos to work out prep and execution against different health ranges, each star and flail are doing different limb damage, also different when prone, and also if limb is damaged, making the class more tactical and separates the good and the best, compared to just making every hit a fixed percentage. Not that I am against fixed known percentages for each star and flail hit, cos it will make automation even easier and less mistakes, but think about normalising it: as good as exposing limb damage formula.

The more noticeable difference is in the balance speed. L3 sets are hugely improved compared to forged. Because of balance speed, there are stunts that L3 stars and flails are able to pull off, that forged are not. There are also stunts that L3 alone can pull off, that even L2 cannot. It's expansion pack.

Gilliam

Let's compare each level of each weapon set and see what it nets you.
0(forged), 1, 2, 3. If like Shirs says and the admin have somewhere stated that they find one l1 scim for instance to be worth the full 350 then I guess add in .5, 1.5, 2.5 for DwC and DwB.
I'm not 100% on all my info being accurate so I'm gonna check it later and then post on it. If someone else already has all the info down then throw it out.

Dochitha

How much it is worth is very subjective. Can always try it out for a few days, keep it if you think it's worth it, else approach admins. 

That said, if we have ARTEFACT TRY feature it will be awesome. Like limit to 1 per Artefact, and some more nuts or token in future promos that we can ARTEFACT TRY flail with token. Just throwing out ideas. 

Vulmar

Dochitha said:

How much it is worth is very subjective. Can always try it out for a few days, keep it if you think it's worth it, else approach admins. 

That said, if we have ARTEFACT TRY feature it will be awesome. Like limit to 1 per Artefact, and some more nuts or token in future promos that we can ARTEFACT TRY flail with token. Just throwing out ideas. 

There was something similar to this in Imperian. Cost 1 unbound credit to rent an artefact inside the arena.