Is there any compelling reason to use Mudlet over the Nexus client?

Aerandri

I am very new to Achaea and to MUDs in general (I've been trying to stick with a MUD for a long time, and this is the furthest I have got!).

I use the Nexus client to play the game, and have started to set up aliases and triggers etc to make the game more playable. I would really like to switch to Mudlet, but the complexity of setting up a play environment that could rival Nexus, and the fact that most of the premade GUIs for it don't work so well makes me reluctant to switch.

Is there any compelling reason to make the switch, or is it entirely down to player preference? I have read about curing systems that let you heal automatically etc, but there seems to be a server side curing system anyway that already does that?

Thanks for enabling newbie questions!

Kiet

Now that there's a map DB and lagless logging from the latest scrip contest, not really beyond more people knowing mudlet/lua than nexus/js.

Shirszae

I still prefer mudlet, and most people you encounter are going to be familiar with mudlet instead of with Nexus. But Nexus is certainly fine too, and has come a long way. 

Torinn

I think primarily access to scripts that are for mudlet.  Nexus is very nice and doesn't require the setup.

Nazihk

There used to be a lot of complaints about Nexus bogging down in large spammy fights. I don't know anybody who fights with Nexus, so I don't know if that problem has been resolved.

Jacen

I haven't tested Zahan's map DB, but that was the largest drawback to using Nexus in the past. 

Nexus scripting interface is terrible, IMO. The lack of a global namespace (even considering the hacky workaround) makes it hard to work with, and functions aren't functions, they're... something else. I can't say its objectively less powerful than Mudlet's, but it feels like it. That's probably just due to my unfamiliarity though. 

Performance-wise I don't think it'll ever match Mudlet. Walking into Hashan's Crossroads would produce noticeable lag for me, though it may not anymore. Not sure.

To my knowledge, Nexus doesn't haven anything to rival the outdated Wundersys or svof in Mudlet. I think Jhui released some barebones stuff at one point though.

Mudlet's open-source and allows contributions from anyone, whether its to the C++ code, the Lua code, documentation, or otherwise! The devs are super responsive (especially on Discord!), bugs get fixed all the time and new features added in, and lately they've been releasing a new version about once a month!

Alyxeri

Jacen said:

I can't say its objectively less powerful than Mudlet's, but it feels like it. That's probably just due to my unfamiliarity though. 

Lua is not more powerful than Js.

I'd say they're about even in terms of what you can do with it. Mudlet is constantly getting its Lua added to/updated to be able to allow more flexibility though, whereas (afaik) Nexus has the majority of js support already built into it.

Nexus is probably easier to do 'beginner coding' with since it well.. Has a beginner coding thing built into the client.

Ahmet

Alyxeri said:

Jacen said:

I can't say its objectively less powerful than Mudlet's, but it feels like it. That's probably just due to my unfamiliarity though. 

Lua is not more powerful than Js.

I'd say they're about even in terms of what you can do with it. Mudlet is constantly getting its Lua added to/updated to be able to allow more flexibility though, whereas (afaik) Nexus has the majority of js support already built into it.

Nexus is probably easier to do 'beginner coding' with since it well.. Has a beginner coding thing built into the client.

Mudlet is inherently more powerful than Nexus because of browser security restrictions (as well as a few other reasons, but this is the big one). There's certain things that you just cannot do in Nexus, and some things that are much much harder. Most people will never run into it, but there's certainly a difference.

Alyxeri

Ahmet said:

Alyxeri said:

Jacen said:

I can't say its objectively less powerful than Mudlet's, but it feels like it. That's probably just due to my unfamiliarity though. 

Lua is not more powerful than Js.

I'd say they're about even in terms of what you can do with it. Mudlet is constantly getting its Lua added to/updated to be able to allow more flexibility though, whereas (afaik) Nexus has the majority of js support already built into it.

Nexus is probably easier to do 'beginner coding' with since it well.. Has a beginner coding thing built into the client.

Mudlet is inherently more powerful than Nexus because of browser security restrictions (as well as a few other reasons, but this is the big one). There's certain things that you just cannot do in Nexus, and some things that are much much harder. Most people will never run into it, but there's certainly a difference.

Right, my comment was about Lua not being more powerful than Js, not so much the clients themselves. The languages each have their own benefits. Both Nexus and Mudlet have their reasons for using them over the other, whether or not they're 'compelling' is really up to the person using it.

I use Mudlet because I despise Js, that's pretty much it. Been using Lua for the past ~10 years, and only bother with Js for my degree work.

Tysandr

Ahmet said:

Mudlet is inherently more powerful than Nexus because of browser security restrictions (as well as a few other reasons, but this is the big one). There's certain things that you just cannot do in Nexus, and some things that are much much harder. Most people will never run into it, but there's certainly a difference.

Examples?

Mercer

Mudlet is more widely used by people that fight. So if you want to learn to fight, chances are very high that the person or people teaching you are going to want you to install mudlet packages and be using a mudlet specific system that they understand like svof.

As Nexus continues to improve, that may change. Unfortunately, as the playerbase gets more divided between Javascript and Lua, the difficulty in learning to do anything on Achaea and break into the realms of combat is going to become even greater.

Aerandri

Cheers for the informative answers guys.

Vadimuses

I think you'll find that you'll have more ability to grow on Mudlet. Nexus provides a good entrance into the game - that's what it is designed for. Mudlet can take you further.

Curing systems that exist for it do way more stuff than the serverside system, they're more customisable, they can integrate into your setup better because they're in the client. As you've seen, you also have the ability to create and tweak the interface to your liking. Some might not work, but post in the thread and people will help you. One day you'd like to tweak a detail, or use a background picture of your character, or customise something else - and you'll be able to do that in Mudlet. Or you might want to create a new button to do something - just go and add one.

Plus, Mudlet has been around for a while now, there is a huge body of scripts you can just pick up and use.

[Deleted User]

It is worth pointing out that you can also tweak the Nexus interface to your liking.

If you want to tweak a detail, add a background picture of your character, customise something, or add a new button, you can do that in Nexus. You do it just like you normally would with JavaScript in any other context. If you know JavaScript, it's easy. If not, the internet is filled with JavaScript tutorials and experts and information. You can even add any of the many, many JavaScript libraries and frameworks out there to Nexus if you want to. If you prefer to add a button using jQuery rather than basic JavaScript, you can do that. If you want to add a jQuery datepicker, you can do that. If you want immutable collections in Nexus, you can just add immutable.js.

Zahan

One big problem with mudlet is... lua.  Lua is awesome, lightweight, versatile, easy to learn, and very forgiving.  But it's lua.

You can spend all that time coding up stuff, using other stuff, fixing that other stuff.  You will get good using lua.  Then you will find out that you can't really use it elsewhere unless you want to start making oblivion plugins.  That you would only do for fun.  You will pour hours and hours into scanning the horrible lua docs and beating your head against the simplified language, and only ever be able to use it making mods for video games.

Nexus, on the other hand, is javascript.  It is the quintessential web development language.  If you want something done in javascript, you don't even have to guess - someone has done it somewhere and posted it online.  The body of help is simply unparalled.  While it is true that mudlet has a larger base of scripts, you need that - you know what the lua doc looks like (been coding for 20 years and still have to read the page a couple times).  With javascript, you just put it together yourself with the almost endless amount of help available, and very easily.  At the end of it all, you can then go use javascript in the real world (like make yourself a website!), and even have the potential to make money with it.

The versatility of nexus makes it a clear winner in my book.  It has a badass gui built in already that you can add and change very very very easily (seriously like 1 line of code).  You can access all the client code.  You can overwrite any of the client.  You could literally use nexus to turn achaea into tetris or whatever your head can imagine.  When you get done building it then you can just log in to the game with 0 hassle from any computer anywhere, or your tablet/phone, and all your stuff is right there.

A lot of the issue right now is, I think, people just don't realize what all you can do.  They see that simple-script interface and get some lag from running bipcore, and chalk nexus up as inferior without ever giving it a good honest effort.  It's really not inferior.  You can do so much more with nexus.

Anywho... /2 cents

Alyxeri

Zahan said:

and only ever be able to use it making mods for video games.

This isn't even remotely true.

@Penwize

eta: There's virtually nothing you can do in Nexus, that you can't do in Mudlet. Please stop spreading misinformation about the capabilities of Lua.

Zahan

Alyxeri said:

Zahan said:

and only ever be able to use it making mods for video games.

This isn't even remotely true.

@Penwize

eta: There's virtually nothing you can do in Nexus, that you can't do in Mudlet. Please stop spreading misinformation about the capabilities of Lua.

Come on.  Let's be serious.  Just because one dude you know has a job coding with lua doesn't make it a viable career path.  Lua vs Javascript is not even an argument.

You're trolling right?  You must be trolling.

Eta: You clearly haven't used nexus much.  Do not again accuse me of lying.  I probably have been coding since you were in diapers.

Alyxeri

Zahan said:

Alyxeri said:

Zahan said:

and only ever be able to use it making mods for video games.

This isn't even remotely true.

@Penwize

Come on.  Let's be serious.  Just because one dude you know has a job coding with lua doesn't make it a viable career path.  Lua vs Javascript is not even an argument.

You're trolling right?  You must be trolling.

The olde "person disagrees with me, so they must be trolling" angle. No, I'm not.

Because I don't feel like listing them for you.

You're definitely the one who's trolling, if you think that's the only usage for Lua, and that it's not a viable career path. Either that, or you're still basing your opinion off of something you heard 20 years ago.

Torinn

JavaScript is vastly more common in the professional world.  I have written a bunch of stuff for others who use Nexus, it is definitely very versatile and powerful.  Just not well explored yet.

Zahan

It's because I'm here in the coding world, making money with it for a very long time.  I know how this works, I've been doing it since it's been being done.  That you think there are even a fraction as many opportunities with lua as there are with web development... I can't even address that.  It's so wildly ignorant.  I mean... websites - there are over a billion websites out there.  Guess what they use.  Yeah.  No comparison.

Alyxeri

I never once mentioned web development.

All I mentioned, was 'viable career path' because that was your argument, of which there's plenty of with Lua. You need to do your research, before making such bold statements.

Armali

It being Lua never felt like a 'problem' to me. You pick up on languages fast (I certainly didn't spend hours on something that has no relevancy elsewhere, you'll find that most programming languages are similar anyways and learning coding practices applies to all languages that derived syntax and structure from C).

Mudlet has a more IDEish sort of environment, and events and stuff help make it feel far more flexible and easy to use. I'm sure I can do something in Nexus that I could do in Mudlet, but Mudlet has error reporting and searching and complex multi-line triggers and a global namespace and a host of other features that make it simpler.

Zahan

You are not going to get a job coding with lua as a recreational amateur who learned it making plugins for achaea.  You are going to have a hard time finding a job coding with lua as an educated professional.  I live in silicone valley and I've never once seen a coding job or gig advertised that asked for lua [in the places I look].

You can, however, code and sell a website to a small business with the language you learned making mods for achaea, and probably within 6 months from 0 experience (if you put in the time).

There really is no debate.  Not even slightly.

Alyxeri

Alyxeri said:

You need to do your research, before making such bold statements.

Quoted, since you apparently missed it.

Hell, you can type in Lua jobs and see one listed right as the first result.

https://jobs.smartrecruiters.com/Ubisoft2/743999661323091-lead-programmer?codes=1-INDEED
https://jobs.apple.com/search?job=113183512&openJobId=113183512#&openJobId=113183512

Apple and Ubisoft, both listing Lua as good languages to have... Oddly, Javascript isn't there :thinking:

Mishgul also got a well-paying job, from knowing Lua due to coding his Omnipave system. So there's another.

Zahan

Clearly you didn't read my response.  I'm going to back out of this debate now.

We'll have this chat again in another decade when you have some experience under your belt.


For those who are reading and interested, I'll just say this:
Right now, I have a 3 month waiting list for freelanced websites.  I've never once advertised that I code websites.  Oddly enough, I don't even have a website for the websites I code.  I don't ask people if they want a website.  I don't even have to sell them.  All the business I've gotten coding websites has been from answering the question "what do you do?".  You tell them you're a web developer and it steamrolls from there.  In all my years coding, nobody has approached me (outside of help on achaea plugins) for something done in lua.  Yes there are jobs for both, true.  Hell you could make money being a professional booger flicker.  It is just an infinitely smaller barrier to entry with web development and javascript.

Cyr

I know of a few people that learned/use Lua for the job doing IT/coding, I won't claim that it's as widespread as JS but almost nothing you write for Achaea/any Mud is going to be directly useful for getting a job as a programmer of any stripe, much more useful is learning how to code (language irrelevant). Once you learn that picking up a new language is just time and effort. (and in my book far less relevant than knowing overarching coding concepts). As a disclaimer though, I hate both Lua and JS. They're both garbage fires (for different reasons) imo. 

Alyxeri

For reference, I never once said- or even implied- that making things for Achaea would get you a job (even though it has helped for a handful of people). I'm countering the argument about knowledge of Lua, with actual evidence to disprove the comment about it being useless/non-viable to learn in the first place.

And Zahan, as I already had the conversation with Prythe: being condescending when you're wrong isn't a good look.

Nazihk

Alyxeri said:

And Zahan, as I already had the conversation with Prythe: being condescending when you're wrong isn't a good look.

Then why do you keep doing it?

Zahan

Alyxeri said:

And Zahan, as I already had the conversation with Prythe: being condescending when you're wrong isn't a good look.

Sorry but I'm just too old to pander to ignorance and inexperience.

Likewise, playing the devil's advocate in the face of insurmountable evidence is "not a good look".

Aralaya

I mean, even if Lua doesn't have professional applications (I dunno if it does or not) it still is a good language to learn. You can learn basic logic and good coding practices by playing a game. You can do it with JavaScript on Nexus too, but that's no reason the bash the usefulness of Lua in this context.

Alyxeri

Zahan said:

Alyxeri said:

And Zahan, as I already had the conversation with Prythe: being condescending when you're wrong isn't a good look.

Sorry but I'm just too old to pander to ignorance and inexperience.

Likewise, playing the devil's advocate in the face of insurmountable evidence is "not a good look".

It's not really ignorance when you're trying to argue an entirely different point that was never brought up in the first place. It's more ignoring your irrelevant point, and staying on topic. To reiterate: You were the one who brought up web development in the first place; if that was the actual point I was arguing against, then I'd most definitely concede Java being far superior to Lua. It wasn't, though.