Can Shamans Lock with Swiftcurse + Aspar?

Rafa

Hey!

I've chosen Shaman for my lessons, but I'm not sure if there's a problem in THEORY or APPLICATION for locking with Swiftcurse.

I think this could be an awesome thread for future Shamans, as well as affliction classes or adventurers who spar Shamans! I'd really love some expert combatants with Shamanistic experience to weigh in!

I've tested for about an hour and a half on @Bann (thanks 110% for letting me puzzle it out), and although @Kiet mentioned that it can be done, I'm struggling to provide all of the locking afflictions within the tree cooldown.

Attuned: Aspar (to COAGULATE SLICKNESS) and Teraile (Curses cause Bleeding for Aspar/Inflame).

The Theory:

1. Provoke tree tattoo.
2. Stick haemophilia.
3. Stick asthma
4. Stick impatience
5. Close out slickness, anorexia, and paralysis

The Reality:

• Haemophilia, asthma, and impatience can be stuck in time before the tree tattoo is ready again
• Right before tree, there is time for one curse, and I can only choose between Slickness/Anorexia, Slickness/Paralysis, Paralysis/Anorexia which prevents a true lock.
• Definitely no time for weariness, recklessness, or stupidity to prevent active cures.

Is this possible, or am I doing something wrong? What could I do to improve?

Thanks!

Sayenna

A lot of the time they're likely not going to have paralysis when you go to coagulate, which means you'll have to follow up with paralysis afterwards. Also probably best not to solely rely on swiftcurse/aspar; use the other invokes + jinx, as well.

Something like:
-curse paralysis/relapse paralysis
-jinx paralysis haemophilia (that'll probably force tree, then get para'd after because of relapse)
-curse paralysis/invoke bloodlet
-jinx paralysis impatience
-swiftcurse para
-swiftcurse asthma
-swiftcurse para twice
-swiftcurse lock affliction
-curse anorexia/coagulate slickness
-swiftcurse para

Rafa

@Sayenna You're totally right - they don't have paralysis when I go to coagulate. I tried to be as efficient as possible up to that point, but I was wondering if I did something wrong.

It seems like Jinx is very powerful, but I was wondering if it is possible in any way without it? It's still a few lessons away (but I'm also hunting diligently).

Vallie

Jinx helps you recover the aff pressure loss from slow (normal) curses. Without it, you're going to be losing some pressure on the bloodlet, though the relapse para should still put you ahead (I think?). It might take longer, but if you can keep haemo stacked and build the bleed without bloodlet, you don't need it? Seems like it'd be slow, though. You could make a puppet and curse anorexia/soulscourge imbibe slickness while just maintaining the other lock affs as an alternative to needing haemo/bleeding.

Additionally if you've blown their tree already, you don't actually need to worry about paralysis as long as you finish your lock before tree comes back up. You can replace your para curses with lock affs if you're really pushing to get it, though you're of course losing the hindering, preventing them running, etc.

Sayenna

Vallie said:

Curse/bloodlet is to get haemophilia, in that scenario. Not to build bleeding. So no, he won't lose any pressure, in the sequence described. You'll still have to worry about paralysis, depending how long it is until their tree comes up.

@Rafa I'd probably just wait until you can transcend curses, before you start seriously thinking about combat. Jinx is an immense help; you're probably not going to lock without, because if you're relying on swiftcurse then you're gonna have to keep putting it back up, which delays your output quite a bit when that's your only source of afflictions.

Rafa

Okay - I just got Jinx!

I can only attune two spirits at a time, meaning that relapsing won't be realistic for quite some time, but I'll try and use your chart above to come up with a strategy!!

Sayenna

Rafa said:

Okay - I just got Jinx!

I can only attune two spirits at a time, meaning that relapsing won't be realistic for quite some time, but I'll try and use your chart above to come up with a strategy!!

You can -bind- 5 spirits at a time, so relapsing is possible.
--Generally the ones you bind for combat are Aspar, Maligus, Syvis, Teraile + x. The 5th is really the only flexible one.

You can only -attune- (as in, get the bonus effects) from 2 at once (until you're trans'd, then it goes to 3)
--For attune you wanna do Maligus and Teraile as your permanent ones, then the third can be anything. 'Downside' is that you can only attune from the ones you bind.


Binding = obtaining the skills, that are listed in their file.
Attune = gaining the additional effects, like bleeding per curse.

Rafa

Yeah!

Unfortunately I have 0 lessons for Vodun - would Aspar be better than Maligus for attunement, so I can give slickness?

Sayenna

Rafa said:

Yeah!

Unfortunately I have 0 lessons for Vodun - would Aspar be better than Maligus for attunement, so I can give slickness?

Read what I said :P

BIND: Aspar, Maligus, Syvis, Teraile, x - That is your goto 5 for starting combat.
ATTUNE: Maligus, Teraile, x - That is your goto 3 for starting combat. There's nothing else really worth attuning; Maligus attune gives bleed per curse, teraile does mana/hp damage.

Armali

Could any argument be made at forgoing Teraile attuning?

Sayenna

Armali said:

Could any argument be made at forgoing Teraile attuning?

Teraile attune? Unlikely, really. Teraile is how you get bleeding for coagulate, sure you have bloodlet but most people are gonna gap it on bloodlet, because of how much bleeding it gives.

Maligus attune, sure you could probably forego that, as well as the binding. If you don't care about soulrending at all.

Spiritlore really doesn't have many worthwhile things to use outside of those ones, though, when it comes to combat. Arius can be fun for stalling the hell out of momentum classes, though. Prone + disrupt, you can pretend to be an int monk.

Armali

Sorry, not Teraile, Maligus. I meant the hp/mana damage per curse one, which I think you mixed up on your post above.

Sayenna

Apparently, I wasn't logged in when I was typing. I forgot which one gave bloodlet (which is the bleed per curse one).

The second post was right. Either way, I responded regarding it! If you don't give a toss about soulrending, sure you could replace Maligus... Replacing it with what, is the question, really. Very few things that have both worthwhile attune effects, as well as worthwhile skills attached to them.

In groups I never used Maligus, though. I replaced it with garon/marak for extra tankiness, most of the time.

Calira

Sayenna said:

Spiritlore really doesn't have many worthwhile things to use outside of those ones, though, when it comes to combat. Arius can be fun for stalling the hell out of momentum classes, though. Prone + disrupt, you can pretend to be an int monk.

I disagree that Spiritlore doesn't have worthwhile spirits outside of Teraile and Maligus. In terms of attunements, Garon and Arayan are situationally excellent while Silvanix is always amazing. In terms of bindings, Ri'Shen and Daina are both situationally excellent and you'll almost always want at least one. Tarnel is absurdly strong but you will lose it eventually, which is less of a drawback than ever with Tether and Solidify. Arius is less great than Tarnel but good if the unreliability is a huge turn-off for you. Aelkesh, Arcanor, Kosuira and Marak are all very good too, but they tend to shine most as tether spirits. And of course, Garon, Arayan and Silvanix are completely worth binding for their attunements alone.

Syvis is also hugely overrated. It's not bad, but it has a 25s cooldown that gives it relatively low-impact for its opportunity cost, and Teraile and Aspar can both serve its niche in its absence. I would pretty much always forego Syvis for more defensive spirits, in fact. The one place where Syvis uniquely shines is in making some Vodun salve-lock setups much easier.

Rafa

Thanks for your help, everyone!

There is only about 105 lessons between swiftcurse and jinx, so I earned them from hunting!

Thank you guys!

Dochitha

Shaman's para swiftcurse (and vodun paralysis) is one of the best option for paralysis uptime. Shaman is also especially good at locking people with paralysis up, blocking tree if they save it for lock. Just have to wait for the time they just ate para, swift para and seal it. If they already used tree, you can seal the lock once all other lock affs are in.

Kiet

I'd definitely agree that there's more worthwhile spirits to attune than just teraile/maligus, yes. Maligus loses a lot of its power if you can't use vodun. Again, though, like I said in the other thread: I wouldn't play shaman without tritrans

Sayenna

Right. Like I said, if you don't care about soulrending (or have no use for soulrending) it's perfectly fine to abandon Maligus.

Never said there weren't any, I just said there's not many that are as useful- at least not offensive-wise; plenty which have uses, albeit quite a number being niche ones. Arayan/Daina was often the third one I had, sometimes I even used both if I wasn't going to (or going to be able to) soulrend much. The arayan heal is nice.

Amranu

Syvis/Aspar are forgoable for a fashion heavy defensive build aiming at a salvelock kill with a tether'd syvis relapse or something along those lines.

Maligus is situationally nice, if you don't think that you can pull off a truelock with curses but can't afford to not be hindering with curses. Admittedly, this is probably the easiest way to fight in most situations.

Rafa

I couldn't figure out a chart to do it with just swiftcurse, but I was able to pull off a lock with curse/jinx/swiftcurse!