Serpents in PvP and Raiding? Or should I pursue another class?

Descretia

Hey all, this was also posted in the Serpent boards but they don't seem to be too active and I was hoping for some answers. 

I'm very excited to jump into this game and was curious if anyone had any advice for starting Serpents(if this is even a good class to try starting as in Achaea). The PvP in this game appears deep and rich and the Serpent class sounds like it has a wealth of skills to manipulate, deceive, and control other players with as well as some presence in raiding. Mhaldor, as the city of Evil, sounds like a good place to live as one imagines they would have many enemies to choose from.

Are my assumptions correct? Many of the posts here appear outdated. Just want to make sure my fangs will be fighting for an active group and that the proper skills will be employed in battle. Thank you. 

Micaelis

Those are all pretty good assumptions. If you're looking to dive into fighting, Mhaldor and Targossas are both good options as they're the most active in that field. 

As far as abilities, serpent is great. It has really good damage output in PvE, allowing you to level up (assuming you can tank the damage, which can be an issue, but at the top-end it's pretty great).

PvP-wise it's a 'momentum' class, and has an affliction base. It -may- be a bit hard starting out but I think most things will be. Momentum classes are generally more difficult to start off on as, as the name suggests, it's about constant output with little to no mistakes. This can be quite difficult when you first try it out, and you'll likely make many mistakes. We've all been there, so don't get down about it, just takes practice. 

It's not -quite- as useful as you think it is in those given fields, such as controlling players and whatnot, a couple other classes that fit that niche better, but overall it's a pretty great class and a solid one. Another great option, if you're choosing Mhaldor, is Apostate. Apostate is pretty amazing for PvP and is unique to Mhaldor. 

All in all you're likely going to change your mind 1000 times before you finally settle, but that's a piece of what makes Achaea fun. I'm a serpent myself, have been for years, and I love it. Same with a lot of people with a lot of classes, it's all about personal preference. 

But, to soothe your concerns, if you go serpent, and you put some effort into it, no you won't really regret it. It's a great class with a lot of options and utility that are unique to the class. It's a lot of fun, I think you'll enjoy it. 

If you have any questions about how it all works you can feel free to talk to me in-game and I can try and help you out. I know it's difficult to start off, there's a ton of in-depth pieces at work, but we're all here to help. 

Kiet

Serpent is good at pvp/raiding, but for solo pvp without at least an arty dirk they're pretty mediocre. In groups, though, that doesn't matter and they're pretty solid.

Kythra

It's honestly a hard question with a tougher answer based on playstyle. You can essentially grab a bow and be Infinitely more useful than a lot of people simply by being able to snipe proper targets in engagements. Mhaldor probably would love it if I sniped more but I hate snipe ents and it's the majority reason my K/D is so low. I like to be up in the fight sealing locks and ensuring the target goes down. 

Serpent isn't overly great at hunting without artefacts. It's not even good at hunting without you going con spec over dexterity which makes 1v1 just awful and near impossible. On the flip side it scales super sharply with artefact lashes, sip rings, Shield of Absorption and turns into a top 3 bashing class. I literally spent credits to multiclass as runewarden since the only artefact I possess is a level 2 Dirk. 

Certain people are rather vehement that I'm not top tier because I haven't mastered more than serpent, but I'm probably the best serpent or at least on equal footings with Dunn (and we won't serp v serp because evade on snap with two icewalls up in different directions is just annoying and the fights can go forever)

But as a serpent main I can tell you that if you invest the time and patience, learn the ins and outs to combat as a serpent are more than worth it. I never float more than 4k health which is simply awful against prep classes. You learn situational awareness very fast and learn how to reset fights best or mind game torso restored to throw off counts, etc etc.

You can pick up a bow and gain 10 kills a fight and essentially so what majority snipe entities do and evade when someone tries to engage on you and keep sniping at your target. Blade masters are so non existent it's laughable so there's 0 counter to evade minus a 1000 gold per star sigil that supposedly counters evade. 

Someone like Atalkez doesn't affliction track(?) or maybe he just doesn't automate and does well enough with serpent. I'm on the other spectrum and automate and enjoy it greatly and am where I am with it. Though admittedly infamous for being a dirty full auto serpent.

I wouldn't recommend you jump straight into thinking you need to automate. You need to find your play and fight style, see how much you hate rebounding or can deal with it. Maybe go Alchie or Apostate if you can't but enjoy afflictions. I'd definitely recommend starting off. They're slower and more methodical but definitely a threat in group and single combat. 

Also gagging and highlighting and turning off 'show text you send' in options is a huge requirement in my mind. And especially so if you want to get better and share logs to the community to look where to improve.

Glad you found us. Cann always throw me a message, or post further questions here.

Also you won't be using your fangs unless you're pulling a Jarrod or Kiet and biting Scytherus then Camus. Another cheesy way to so damage.

Glhf

Descretia

Thank you very much for the input! Micaelis, you said some classes fit the controller/manipulator role better? Which might they be? Also, with the Serpent as "momentum" class, what other classifications might there be?

I definitely enjoy roles with utility and that can contribute in groups, but solo ability is also nice as my playtime is usually quite early in the AM(12-6am CST) and I may have no choice but to go it alone sometimes.

Krypton

Descretia said:

Micaelis, you said some classes fit the controller/manipulator role better? Which might they be?

Synaptic lock Monk

All hail our SLM Overlords

Rangor

Serpent pve is fast against smaller targets. Fastest hunting when artied out fully.

1v1 it's momentum/burst affliction based.

Teamfights they shine best with getting the team into position. Starting fights with backstab and sniping. Everything else they bring to a Teamfight another class can do better.

Descretia

Krypton said:

Descretia said:

Micaelis, you said some classes fit the controller/manipulator role better? Which might they be?

Synaptic lock Monk

All hail our SLM Overlords

Synaptic lock Monk? SLM? Can you please explain that to a newb?

Krypton

Just making a joke, mostly! Monks can spy what you're doing with Telepathy, and the Synaptic Lock is a new (and polarising) artefact that lets them spy much more feasibly and easily.

Kythra

If you want controller/manipulator esque class is PvP then it's not serpent. They're like the DPS in a comp, rapid afflictions but no hold down (minus pinshot but it vanishes on burst)

Occultist, Depthswalker, Apostate, Alchemist hold the more controlling kind of feel to me in a disruptive class way. Monk is way too frontal assault and back loaded with a shit ton of survival and can fill literally ever role.

Descretia

I haven't looked into Depthswalker and Alchemist too much. Can anyone please illuminate me on their playstyles/perks?

Monk Telepathy sounds like it'd be my style, but it sounds like they focus more on front hand to hand combat. Are there such things as Telepathy focused monks? I tend to prefer sneaky/ganky roles.

Armali

I think a big question to ask is if you have any experience at all with other IRE MUDs. You can't really compare it to something like WoW or a Diku MUD.

Descretia

I've played Aardwolf, Thunderdome, and Eternal City probably the longest. Several other randoms along the way.

Lucianus

Descretia said:

I haven't looked into Depthswalker and Alchemist too much. Can anyone please illuminate me on their playstyles/perks?

Monk Telepathy sounds like it'd be my style, but it sounds like they focus more on front hand to hand combat. Are there such things as Telepathy focused monks? I tend to prefer sneaky/ganky roles.

Depthswalker do pretty good damage and afflictions. Their main role is damage and support. I'm always the damage guy providing utility to support my groups in team fights. And they're very strong utility too. Such as timewell to nullify arrows when the other team have more bow users, haste to boost the balance speed of your allies to make them attack caster in a fight, and aeon to give aff hinder support on a key target.

They can also heal themselves with rewind should they be taking too much damage or accelerate to break out of soft locks.

I often recommend Depthswalkers to new people. Because they are very minimal in artefacts that are needed to do good damge in team fights and got all the tools they need to 1v1 (just make sure you go full Constitution cause you're going to have survivability problems, need at least 15 con).

Alchemist is kinda the same. Not many arties needed to do well in 1v1, but they don't do as well in team fights as Depthwalkers. There's Mayology, but it's situational and you don't want to be a one-trick pony. You'll get bored fast and it'll stop being effective once people catch on.

Solnir

I commented in the other thread before I realized this was the active one. Woops.

Dunn

Kythra said:

It's honestly a hard question with a tougher answer based on playstyle. You can essentially grab a bow and be Infinitely more useful than a lot of people simply by being able to snipe proper targets in engagements. Mhaldor probably would love it if I sniped more but I hate snipe ents and it's the majority reason my K/D is so low. I like to be up in the fight sealing locks and ensuring the target goes down. 

Serpent isn't overly great at hunting without artefacts. It's not even good at hunting without you going con spec over dexterity which makes 1v1 just awful and near impossible. On the flip side it scales super sharply with artefact lashes, sip rings, Shield of Absorption and turns into a top 3 bashing class. I literally spent credits to multiclass as runewarden since the only artefact I possess is a level 2 Dirk. 

Certain people are rather vehement that I'm not top tier because I haven't mastered more than serpent, but I'm probably the best serpent or at least on equal footings with Dunn (and we won't serp v serp because evade on snap with two icewalls up in different directions is just annoying and the fights can go forever)

But as a serpent main I can tell you that if you invest the time and patience, learn the ins and outs to combat as a serpent are more than worth it. I never float more than 4k health which is simply awful against prep classes. You learn situational awareness very fast and learn how to reset fights best or mind game torso restored to throw off counts, etc etc.

You can pick up a bow and gain 10 kills a fight and essentially so what majority snipe entities do and evade when someone tries to engage on you and keep sniping at your target. Blade masters are so non existent it's laughable so there's 0 counter to evade minus a 1000 gold per star sigil that supposedly counters evade. 

Someone like Atalkez doesn't affliction track(?) or maybe he just doesn't automate and does well enough with serpent. I'm on the other spectrum and automate and enjoy it greatly and am where I am with it. Though admittedly infamous for being a dirty full auto serpent.

I wouldn't recommend you jump straight into thinking you need to automate. You need to find your play and fight style, see how much you hate rebounding or can deal with it. Maybe go Alchie or Apostate if you can't but enjoy afflictions. I'd definitely recommend starting off. They're slower and more methodical but definitely a threat in group and single combat. 

Also gagging and highlighting and turning off 'show text you send' in options is a huge requirement in my mind. And especially so if you want to get better and share logs to the community to look where to improve.

Glad you found us. Cann always throw me a message, or post further questions here.

Also you won't be using your fangs unless you're pulling a Jarrod or Kiet and biting Scytherus then Camus. Another cheesy way to so damage.

Glhf

Gurl we can evade all day.

Descretia

I noticed someone say that Serpent is a "momentum-affliction" based class and that momentum classes can be more difficult starting out.

What might be the styles of other classes?

Bann

Classes are either prep(preparation) or momentum. Momentum is affs, prep is limb damage. Some classes are a hybrid of the two.

Antidas

At the most basic level, prep is the easier of the two to learn because you don't have to think/react at high speeds to be successful. You can take your time (within reason, as limbs do eventually reset within 2 minutes of your last hit), remember exactly what needs to happen next, and can still come out ahead. Of course, you will obviously be more successful if you -are- able to do these things at high speed, but its not 100% necessary.

Momentum classes rely entirely upon building a layer of afflictions on your opponent and afflicting with the right ones before your opponent can cure others. If you pause to figure out what you need to do next, your opponent is going to cure up their afflictions and you'll be back to square one. This makes momentum classes a bit more difficult for newcomers to Achaean combat, since you by definition are learning and may have difficulty figuring out the next step.

I learned basic Achaean combat as a monk on my old main character before I created Antidas and decided to become a serpent. And then it took a significant amount of time after character creation before i actually figured out how to fight beyond just sniping! It was something I always wanted to learn how to do, but couldn't really figure it out for the longest time. Because of this, I am a fairly strong believer in starting with a more simple prep class and moving from there. That being said, if you're really sold on serpent, don't let me stop you! There is a wealth of knowledge available on forums and in game regarding how to be successful, and we combatants are by in large a friendly bunch if you need help - just gotta ask. Most of our combatants in the game should be able to give you some tips and pointers for how to play or learn serpent and momentum classes, even if they are not actively serpents themselves - so don't be afraid to ask. Just be aware that you are choosing the more difficult path

Farrah

In the age of aff trackers, momentum tends to be easier than prep, not harder.

Serpent sounds like the right class if you want sneaky/ganky. The other option there, as a Mhaldorian, is Apostate. The rest I wouldn't consider very sneaky.

Apostate is easier for a beginner imo, because you don't have to worry about hypnosis while afflicting. Though, serpent can rob people, if that's something you're interested in as a separate activity.

Austere

I'll second apostate being easier to pickup.  Serpent very much relies on timing hypnosis.  Even being off by .1 second can cost you a lock, depending on how herb balance lines up. Apostate has sicken(smart aff) and a lot better room hinder, though this takes more time. 

Serpent has the benefit of threatening lock, damage(depending on how they cure scytherus), AND darkshade kill. Apostate tends to lock or threaten instant kill by draining mana.  There's more for both, and the synergy of kill methods is real, but that's the main one on one points. 

Serpent is hands down the better infiltrator spy class.  I definitely would not lump theft as a reason to go serpent though.  The amount of gold you can make doesn't justify the infamy level, in general. Outside of rp reasoning, I wouldn't bother with theft at all.  You're essentially ruining someone's day for penny's on the dollar.  It hurts feelings. 

Dunn

If I could use Apostate I would be soooooo happy.

Exelethril

Apostate and serpent are equal-ish in terms of afftracking, I think. They're both straightforward and you don't really have to tailor your offense for any class.

For serps - the only real input needed is the snap alias on the darkshade prio swap after sticking darkshade/weariness/asthma. (-> watch for ginseng eat -> snap imp or longer hypno chain (disrupt/hypoc) -> gecko/slike -> flay/para). Though, it does require timed input, unlike afftracking with apostate.

As for prep vs momentum - if you really need or want to kill a serp as a prep class and not just need one to stay/bash on for practice/lolz/contracts, watch the pinshot. It lasts for ~10 seconds (iirc), so it allows you to play defensively (shield/tree/darkshade prio or hinder) for the first 3-4 seconds to prevent them from getting too far ahead with the darkshade timer -> switch back to para prio -> prep with darkshade stuck -> dash/run when pinshot fades.

Antidas

Farrah said:

In the age of aff trackers, momentum tends to be easier than prep, not harder.

Eh, that assumes you're using an aff tracker which I don't think is a fair assumption - I wouldn't recommend learning with an aff tracker anyways. Imo, best to learn without one at least to a certain point, and then begin using one to help with the knowledge you already have.

Torinn

Shameless priest plug here.

Descretia

Torinn said:

Shameless priest plug here.

Can you tell me a little bit about them please?

Kiet

Priest is pretty boring and bad in groups right now so I'd not do that, personally.

Kythra

Also kind of dependant on diadem and mace. Also you need to go quick witted for PvP and you need nimble for hunting. Targ is swarmed with priests, I think Alchemist or Blademaster (don't go BM and hamstring me ) is good for Targ. Otherwise Apostate or Alchemist for Mhaldor.

Torinn

I like priest and don't find it boring.  It's similar to Apostate, but more defensively oriented.  Priests give afflictions with the goal of draining mana of the enemy, they heal health damage, heal ally afflictions, and have lots of utilities that you can use to good effect such as beckoning people into you from adjacent rooms and seeking/tracing peoples' movements.  Diadem and mace aren't required, but they do make it a bunch easier to perform well.  I've seen a few priests with no arties that really understood the class that beat high level and experienced opponents, though honestly this could be said of basically any class.  Knowledge and practice > arties for anything you choose.  As far as group fights go, it is a bit weaker but only because the damage meta right now is health-centric.  Priests kill instantly via an ability called Absolve which only works if they're lower than 50% mana (typically).  Apostates have the same thing only evil-themed.  When you have a group that does health damage, and you are reliant on mana damage, it doesn't work well, that is true (though you still pressure health with your smites).  Not all groups are health-centric but many are right now.  I and a couple others are working on ways to use priest abilities more fully in group combat, and I know in the future priest abilities are likely to change to have an easier time in groups so just because it isn't "ideal" right now doesn't mean it won't be in the future.   Additionally, being "swarmed" by priests isn't REALLY that true.  We have a lot of younger citizens that choose priest, but there aren't a great deal of high level priest combatants.  Additionally if we had a lot of high level priest combatants that would actually be -good- because then our group's focus would be on mana instead of health, leading to very quick absolves.  It's a multi-faceted discussion that goes around in circles

Kiet

Regardless, unartied priest is pretty garbo, so I wouldn't recommend unless OP wants to heavily arty up already

Farrah

She is also a Mhaldorian and Priest is Targ-only.

I disagree with the notion of picking a first class based on what your city "needs" at any given time though. Should pick what's most fun for you.