Help Seco-NDS

Boosteya

Quite some time ago, I designed a set of tutu skirts (because they couldn't be just tutus, but that's not what this is about). I then preserved and shared them, instead of making them public, because I've noticed that public designs aren't always available. Sometimes, they poof. Because nobody makes them, is my working theory, but I still didn't and don't want that for my skirts.

I casually mentioned in an OOC clan once that since they're available to all, I could probably use them on an alt without trouble. Actually, you can't, I was told.

Wut?! ISSUE ME...

Garden: They're right. You can't. If you designed it, your alt can't wear it. (The answer was longer than that but the upshot was, if I roll an alt tomorrow, and find someone else has made one of my skirts and put it for sale somewhere, I'm in violation of HELP SECONDS if my new alt uses money she earned by ratting, to buy that skirt.)

Okay, I can see how directly outfitting my alt is a violation of HELP SECONDS, but... I can't even buy it from someone else's shop? When someone else crafted that exact skirt? The only reason the pattern isn't public is because I've seen public designs vanish!

This restriction becomes abusable: Here, newbie, have a tutu skirt. (If she won't wear it even on pain of death, that proves she's Boosteya's alt! HA! [Not that most of you would need such a thing since I'm crap at multiplaying anyway, but my principle here stands.])

I have no way to dissociate from a design, especially once it's preserved, aside from destroying the design. I don't want to do that! One used to be able to give designs to an org despite preservation, but that, or so I understand, is no longer so. (Also, I still designed them. Would that really fix this?) Aside from the preservation problem, giving a design to an org was expensive! I've forgotten how expensive, and HELP DESIGN SHARING was uninformative on the matter. (I've TYPO'd it.) I would cheerfully give my skirt designs to the Scarlattan Order or the Commune, as they're they're the most likely to have someone want a tutu skirt, and to share with those outside the group.

But would any of this matter? (Hmm, definitely doesn't matter in the sense of, 'Achaea's just a game.' But... yeah, that's not the sense in which I was asking that.)

Aethele

Could you post the exact wording of the answer you got back? 

I can see the reasoning on the tutu skirt situation. Your alt shouldn't know that the original designs are shared or what the passcode is. 

I don't think it makes sense that you can't buy an item in shop if it happens to be your other character's design. 

Kudos on the clever post title! 

Ryzeth

You're not violating anything by using something that you designed on another character. So long as your other character isn't the one that created the item itself that's being sold (as in, doesn't have your mark) - they can track the source, if it doesn't have a mark at all.

If it's a design that has a passcode on it, then yeah you're probably violating something by using said passcode on your alt. But if someone else is doing all the creating of the item and selling it, you're pretty much in the clear.

Boosteya

I don't know if I still have the reply; this /was/ a while ago. Since I hardly ever alt these days and I have a lot of other stuff to do in game (mostly gatharvestracting) I'd honestly forgotten about it. If I do, it shall appear here on this thread!

Tahquil

It would also depend on how you worded your issue. If you something like " Hey, I designed this skirt and made it a public design. Someone told my I wouldn't be able to use that skirt on an alt. is this true?" Then yes, of course they will say it's not appropriate.

A lot of misunderstandings happen with the rulings of issues. This occurs because YOU know what you want to know. With this knowledge in your head you read what you wrote and it sounds like it is what you need to know. The ruling admin read the issue differently because they only have access to what you wrote and not the conversations before hand or your thoughts.

Tips :
When issuing, be as specific as possible. If it is not specific, posit different situations that may arise and an admin can say yes, no, no, yes.

Always save your original issue. Since the admins sometimes give rather short replies and that once an issue is resolved it is removed from the system, if you've forgotten exactly what you asked the reply you get may not make any sense.

Boosteya

I remember my original issue. Not the precise wording. Alas, the message is gone. But I recall the wording of the reply, specifically about if someone else were to use my preserved tutu skirt designs (which are shared and unpasscoded; you can NDS P 13023/13024/13025 to verify that they are indeed, designed by me, owned by me, preserved, shared, and unpasscoded) that if I were on an alt (let's say Qep, because why not?) if Qep were to rat up some gold and then go look for clothes, and she enters your shop to find one of those skirts among the selections (the shopowner made it, probably. Or maybe not, but /I/ did not, not on any alt!), I'm in violation of HELP SECONDS if she buys it.

@admin, please feel free to chime in if this is an incorrect understanding!

Skye

I think this is a pretty tricky situation. Buying from your own shop is a clear violation of HELP SECONDS because you're essentially performing a transaction between your own characters.

But using a design made by one of your other characters is becoming a line that's more and more difficult to not cross. The game population in general is getting smaller. There is also a scarcity of unique designers and the increasing dependency of shopkeepers on public designs (not to mention the small population of serious shopkeepers (some of whom have game-wide monopolies). This means that the variety of wares being made available to players is also becoming smaller.

Being a prolific designer is also another problem. Suppose you were playing around on an alt and someone buys a ring you designed and proposes to you, are you allowed to accept it? Am I in trouble if I go to a party on alt and the party was catered by myself?

Boosteya

I resent this issue, got a reply. I've asked admins to post it here, both here and as a messaged reply to the in-game issue. I do not know if they will.

Cooper

You can post issue me responses anywhere you'd like, not sure why you'd think that was bad.

Boosteya

I don't think it's bad. I wanted to give them a chance to do it, is all.

Boosteya

ISSUE ME: I'd forgotten about an issue I posted on my main. I made a forums thread about it, but that's dead: https://forums.achaea.com/discussion/5721/help-seco-nds for reference. I would like some clarification on that matter. In fact, while this is my issue, I'd like to borrow @Skye 's questions from that thread: Suppose you were playing around on an alt and someone buys a ring you designed and proposes to you, are you  allowed to accept it? Am I in trouble if I go to a party on alt and the party was catered by myself? I'd like to request a response on that thread, whatever it may be. Thank you!

Message #806        Sent by Meletus
2018/7/10/17:38 Greetings! Regarding your issue #83175: Thanks for getting in touch with the admin
team! It would unfortunately be inappropriate to accept, wear, or use anything created by your
alternate character in this situation. Please let us know if you have any further questions via
ISSUE ME!

And here we have it. I have added the @ to Skye's name bolded the meat of the reply.

Lenn

That's stupid.

Skye

The only real thing I'm taking away from this is to stop sticking your designs on public to reduce chances of accidentally violating the rule. >_>

Shirszae

It really is quite a silly ruling with a lot of very unfortunate implications...

Boosteya

@Shirszae in this case, I don't like silly.

Boosteya

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): You say, "Hey, [Redacted]? [Link to this thread.]"

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "Listen."
 clt1 ?
([Redacted]'s OOC clan): You say, "?"
 
([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "I designed a bracelet, as my jester. I personally designed it, but it was submitted by Shihai, and the designed is owned by the CIJ House."
 
([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "I asked someone OOCly if the design still existed, purely out of
curiosity."
 
([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "They decided to have this bracelet made for [Redacted], because [Redacted] has a lot of "friends/kids" in the CIJ house."
 
([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "I thought nothing of it."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): You say, "And you got into trouble?"

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "Had the bracelet nondecayed and resetting."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "They tagged me for first violation of help seconds, and
destroyed the bracelet."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "I was lucky to get two ice figurines, to replace the credits I spent."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): You say, "Ugh. Can you put your story on that thread?"

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "I don't talk on the forums."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "But you're welcome to add it."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): You say, "Thank you, I will. Mind your name ([Redacted]) being in?"

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "That's fine."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "Actually."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "I'd prefer you didn't."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): You say, "Okay."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "There are people who will know it's me anyway, but I'd rather not have my name in things."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "Makes things easier for me."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "<3."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): You say, "I'm also going to edit the name of the clan to '[Redacted]'s OOC
clan' and yeah."

([Redacted]'s OOC clan): [Redacted] says, "Yep."

Skye

Okay since I kept getting messaged and tagged about this. Some updated thoughts for real now.

Even though I think it's silly to make so many alts in a MUD with such a limited population, I'm pretty sympathetic to the plight of people having to walk through the minefield of character separation. I think it's self-inflicted punishment, but nonetheless harrowing enough to engender a level of sympathy. I brought up my points on the basis that the ruling might be that stringently enforced.

I also understand the need for admin to only put across the official party line of "NO USING YOUR ALTS DESIGNS EVER CHARACTER SEPARATION 100%" because if at anytime they offer a ruling with mixed messages, it's going to be abused in one way or another.

Now, realistically speaking. There are like maybe less than 20 admin floating around in the Garden, all of them with many many different responsibilities and better things to do than police what you pick up off the ground to eat or wear. I can't even get my designs back from the guild on time, for crying out loud

Provided that you aren't:

• Making a scene with said items
  
• Blatantly crafting your own designs on another character (especially in bulk and non-public)
  
• Personally buying from your own shop on purpose (or asking people to buy stuff for you specifically from said shop)
• Designing an item that you know will be given to your alt (like engagement rings requested by your alt's spouse/partner etc)
• Giving them a reason to start looking at you closely (ETA: Trying to non-decay an item definitely counts as getting admin to look at you closely)
  

most things will probably pass under a closed eye.*

*This is not endorsement to abuse HELP SECONDS

Torinn

Well, maybe I'm late to the party but why can't you design and submit stuff on a single character without ever transferring designs?  If you want it to be on your alt, do the whole process on your alt.

Boosteya

Torinn said:

Well, maybe I'm late to the party but why can't you design and submit stuff on a single character without ever transferring designs?  If you want it to be on your alt, do the whole process on your alt.

First off, design skills require extra credits to use. Second off, this isn't about wanting that mask on your alt, so you ask some other designer to design it for you - from your alt! - and then it goes south because you talk OOC a lot and that designer is afraid of getting on the wrong side of this stuff and/or feels like you tried to manipulate them and in the end your alt goes dormant and maskless and you're not even sure what order that's in. (I'm not sure what that other designer was thinking, and if that person chooses to chime in here, that'd be awesome even if my guess about how they feel/felt about it is correct, or if the truth is worse.) That's relevant, but what it's about is the incidental stuff. The stuff you didn't plan for, just didn't realise you have to plan against. That's why, when I re-issued, I used Skye's questions.

Cooper

This is pretty cut and dry, and the admin are 100% correct in their responses.

Nothing you do on one character can be used in any way on another character.

The admins are not going to punish you if someone out of the blue hands you something you designed on another character. You still need to get rid of the item though, and you can RP it in any way you would like (including not RPing and just dumping it into a humgii).

I would challenge that if you have a character that you feel just "has to have" that item you crafted on another character, that your characters aren't separate enough and you coul should just play that other character.

If you're one of the people who has more than 2-3 characters and you feel you can't keep it straight between them, you need to realize that is a personal problem of yours and not something the admin need to step in and change for you.

There are thousands of designs out there, and it is incredibly simple to not use one you created on another character. Don't try to make this sound like a big problem, because it isn't.

Dupre

Redacted is at fault because what he/she did is literally the definition of crossplaying. Using your first character's identity to get your second character special access/items.

Laedha

It's really not that hard to commission a tailor to make whatever custom items you want. Yeah it costs more, but that's sort of the point of the rule. If people want their alts to have nice stuff, they have to buy the nice stuff for the alt. 

I truly can't imagine admin ever noticing that when you went to a party, one of the 5 food items that was dropped happened to be from your first character that went unowned and somebody else bought it blah blah. Like @Skye said, they're not going looking for random coincidences, I'm sure. 

Boosteya

Dupre said:

Redacted is at fault because what he/she did is literally the definition of crossplaying. Using your first character's identity to get your second character special access/items.

Redacted's name wasn't on the paperwork. Redacted is not Shihai's alt. You might still think you're right, and you might be. I'm not so sure.

Edit: Also, Redacted only asked if it still existed. Never asked for a copy of the bracelet, just wanted to know if the bracelet was still a thing. That unnamed person Redacted asked, decided to do the "crossplaying" stuff. Redacted's name does not appear on the design at all. Shihai did the paperwork, so is technically the designer, and the ownership is CIJ, an org.

Cooper said:

This is pretty cut and dry, and the admin are 100% correct in their responses.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the above statement, but you're right that it's not a big problem. It's just bothering me a lot, both for myself and because of experiences like Redacted's. And of course anxiety, which is as much a personal problem as those way-too-many mostly-dormant alts of mine.

Jarrod

When they nondecayed and made it resetting, they cooperated in the "crossplaying" stuff.

Prythe

TL;DR If @Skye  ever has an alt that alt will never be able to eat any good food.