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Shikudo

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  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Morzakai said:
    Maybe I'm missing it... but no attacks in shikudo hit denizens.
    Risingkick and thrust are both usable on denizens, just have to target a limb.
    Huh. Neat.
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,415 @ - Epic Achaean
    How do you Bash in shikudo? I imagine being a quad skill investment it could be better than serpent DPS. 
  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,105 @ - Epic Achaean
    You're imagining too much.
  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Anyone having any luck obtaining branches to make staves for Shikudo?

    With nimble fingers you strip a single, supple branch from the weeping willow that looms overhead.
    19:16:46:295 |  6582h(100%), 6401m(99%), 25010w, 28220e ex|ckeidb      (-27m)
    ii branch
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You are holding:


    You are wearing:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Couldn't find any branches when I pulled it.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • FrederichFrederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited May 2017
    The only thing I don't like about this is something two-fold.

    A ) There's a cooldown and a lesson cost to swap between Tekura and Shikudo
    B ) There's a learning cost for also transing in Shikudo.

    If Weaponmastery doesn't do it, this really shouldn't have both of these at the same time.  If it was simply "you can swap between Shikudo/Tekura if you haven't been on your Aggression timer." and have trans'd it, without the limitation of 100 lessons to swap.  sure.  That'd be cool.

    If it was once you trans Tekura.  You've also trans'd Shikudo (but have to spend 100 lessons to swap).  That'd be cool.

    These are the two major issues with it, and why I doubt I'll be trying it out in the future. :-1:

    Dochitha
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah I dunno why people who want to focus on Shikudo should be forced to learn 4 skills to everyone else's 3.

    Looks cool otherwise though!
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,621 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't mind having either the 100 lessons to swap or trans two skills and switch between for free but it's admittedly a bit meh that you have to trans both and still can't actually use both without more cost. That's like just throwing away all the lessons in Tekura.
    CooperDochitha
  • MorthifMorthif Member Posts: 1,725 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    let's just hope this quad trans trend will continue with Bard being next!
    Caelan
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,526 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's extra bad when you have several classes and your monk class is in a slot that isn't #1. If I want to get shikudo I have to spend 850 credits. 

  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Frederich said:
    The only thing I don't like about this is something two-fold.

    A ) There's a cooldown and a lesson cost to swap between Tekura and Shikudo
    B ) There's a learning cost for also transing in Shikudo.

    If Weaponmastery doesn't do it, this really shouldn't have both of these at the same time.  If it was simply "you can swap between Shikudo/Tekura if you haven't been on your Aggression timer." and have trans'd it, without the limitation of 100 lessons to swap.  sure.  That'd be cool.

    If it was once you trans Tekura.  You've also trans'd Shikudo (but have to spend 100 lessons to swap).  That'd be cool.

    These are the two major issues with it, and why I doubt I'll be trying it out in the future. :-1:

    Na, it's the same as Weaponmastery. It's 100 lessons to switch a weapon spec and 12 hours cooldown (unless you buy the insignia of mastery arties).

    The difference though... is that you have to spend an extra 1780 lessons to trans the skillset, and admittingly... it does way more than your typical weaponmastery spec.

    And I'm not a fan of being able to freely switch between Shikudo and Tekura in the middle of combat. That just invites all sorts of balance issues.


    On another note... seems they fixed the bug that does not permit you to pull a branch from the ancient trees. There's the staff:

    wp 357552

    Fashioned from the branch of an ancient willow tree, this two-handed staff is shaped with such meticulous care that its
    characteristic knots are still visible upon the surface. Around six feet in length, the wood is slender, supple, and
    startlingly light weight. While its appearance is scarcely more impressive than that of a simple walking staff, it is the
    perfect balance and incredible strength that resonate a glimpse of something more; a sense of deadly grace and disciplined
    lethality brought to bear only by the hands of a Shikudo monk.

    It has 6 months of usefulness left.
    It weighs about 2 pounds and 0 ounce(s).
    It bears the distinctive mark of Lucianus.
    You may use the following commands with this weapon:
     

    It is a two-handed weapon.
    Damage: 0  To-hit: 0  Speed: 0
    A knotted willow staff has no venoms or magical effects on it.


    Kinda interesting that it only lasts for 6 months... and has 0 damage, to-hit, and speed. I guess the attacks aren't really based on the stats of the staff weapons, but more on the level of skill of Shikudo itself.

    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,105 @ - Epic Achaean
    Wonder what slot Monk is in for Antonius.  :o
  • FrederichFrederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    @Lucianus

    I didn't say swapping mid-battle.  Only when you are off your aggression timer.
  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I guess it makes sense if it doesn't have any weapon stat. Seems to ignore rebounding.

    Stepping forward, you drive a knotted willow staff at the face of Suzuno.
    The staff smashes into the face of Suzuno with a sickening crunch.
    Snapping back into a ready stance, you whirl a knotted willow staff in a long sweep at the head of Suzuno.
    The staff connects to the side of Suzuno's head with a resounding crack.
    Snapping your leg out to its full extent, you drive a heel into the left knee of Suzuno.
    You feel the satisfying crunch of bone under the impact of your heel.
    You are now maintaining a kata chain of 6 actions. Damage ~821

    You whip a knotted willow staff at Suzuno in a controlled arc, bringing its length to crack against her torso.
    Suzuno staggers as the staff cracks across her ribs, sweat breaking out upon her forehead.
    You whip a knotted willow staff at Suzuno in a controlled arc, bringing its length to crack against her torso.
    Suzuno staggers as the staff cracks across her ribs, sweat breaking out upon her forehead.
    You drive your foot up in a rising kick at the torso of Suzuno.
    Your foot drives into the solar plexus of Suzuno.
    You are now maintaining a kata chain of 3 actions. Damage ~957


    To put things in perspective... I have 19 strength as a Monk. Damage is so-so. I'm pretty sure the skillset has potential to do way more, but I think it'll require a lot more effort to do more damage than Tekura.



    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,917 Achaean staff

    Hmm, let me see:

    Bashing: Almost everything in the skill should work vs denizens. Notable exceptions are dispatch, crescent.

    Damage: Shikudo is faster, tekura has higher damage but is slower.

    LucianusSolnirUtianimaDochitha
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,539 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    It's extra bad when you have several classes and your monk class is in a slot that isn't #1. If I want to get shikudo I have to spend 850 credits. 
    I'd not thought of that, those that have multiclassed Monk outside of slot one are going to have to spend extra. Seems a poor way to do it, especially when you have set a precedent with Knight specialisations
    image
  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Makarios said:

    Hmm, let me see:

    Bashing: Almost everything in the skill should work vs denizens. Notable exceptions are dispatch, crescent.

    Damage: Shikudo is faster, tekura has higher damage but is slower.

    Got to play around with raiding with it today. The speed and afflictions definitely makes up for the damage (and deals pretty good damage for its speed). Bashing is pretty pleasant and refreshing too!
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

    Free Community System for Achaea: TReX System <link here>
    - I have decided to become involve in developing and maintaining this community system for Achaea. Feel free to message me in-game or on forum for help or bugfixing.
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,032 @ - Epic Achaean
    Personally, I'm pretty happy with most of the lesson pricing. It's basically a second class I'm getting for 1738 lessons instead of 7500, with how differently the two specs operate. Heck, in a different era, it'd probably have gotten released as an entirely separate class. I sort of feel like knight has set a really high bar for investment value, in this respect, and I'm not surprised other things aren't being matched to it.

    That said, I kind of wish swapping was less expensive, given that I've already had to invest in learning the skill separately. It feels frustrating to have a big lesson investment gated behind a substantial lesson cost every time I want to use it, and if it's going to be treated separately from knight, I'm not sure why that part had to stay the same. I can dream that maybe the inevitable artifact will be cheaper then the talisman as a result, but I know how this goes.


    On a different note, does anyone have a good notion of what a basic dispatch setup should look like? I'm having trouble pulling it off in any way that seems remotely reliable. Sweep is 3 seconds, the second break is a minimum of 2.1, and needle is another 3, which comes out to a barely-too-slow 8.1. It's doable with salve delays from arm breaks/stuns/slickness, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something, with how poorly I'm managing it. Crescent seems like the much more reliable kill to me, at this point.
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,917 Achaean staff

    Ok, so to answer some questions that keep coming up in messages:

    Q: What did you do to my mind command, it won't work anymore?

    A: Mind command cannot follow a Shikudo strike. You can still handaxe/command for team utility and such, just no forcing apply on breaks for trivial dispatches.

    Q: Did you accidentally delete Transition from Kaido?

    A: KAI TRANSITION is Tekura monk only.

    Q: I don't even have bodyblock now, how will I live?

    A: There aren't defences for mitigating damage, each form grants a defensive bonus alongside their other effects. Its slightly tankier than Tekura monk on average, a good deal more when in Tykonos (but very limited when in said form).

    Q: Can we change the gmcp fields for Shikudo monk to not include Tekura monk specific information?

    A: That's on the list for today.

    Q: Artefact staves?

    A: Soon.

    Q: Artefact skill switch?

    A: Undecided.

    Q: Can we have jumpkick?

    A: No.

    UtianimaExelethril
  • MorzakaiMorzakai Member Posts: 19
    I really don't think Shikudo should cost more lessons based on class slot, you've already made that HUGE investment on tekura which you aren't even going to be able to use unless you spend a 100 lessons a pop to switch in between them. Just seems like a bad way to go about things to me.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,991 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    It's extra bad when you have several classes and your monk class is in a slot that isn't #1. If I want to get shikudo I have to spend 850 credits. 
    A bit less if you do it this month, since converting to lessons gives you 7 instead of 6 (or was that last month?) per credit, but still a very hefty cost.
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,917 Achaean staff
    Keorin said:
    Personally, I'm pretty happy with most of the lesson pricing. It's basically a second class I'm getting for 1738 lessons instead of 7500, with how differently the two specs operate. Heck, in a different era, it'd probably have gotten released as an entirely separate class. I sort of feel like knight has set a really high bar for investment value, in this respect, and I'm not surprised other things aren't being matched to it.

    That said, I kind of wish swapping was less expensive, given that I've already had to invest in learning the skill separately. It feels frustrating to have a big lesson investment gated behind a substantial lesson cost every time I want to use it, and if it's going to be treated separately from knight, I'm not sure why that part had to stay the same. I can dream that maybe the inevitable artifact will be cheaper then the talisman as a result, but I know how this goes.


    On a different note, does anyone have a good notion of what a basic dispatch setup should look like? I'm having trouble pulling it off in any way that seems remotely reliable. Sweep is 3 seconds, the second break is a minimum of 2.1, and needle is another 3, which comes out to a barely-too-slow 8.1. It's doable with salve delays from arm breaks/stuns/slickness, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something, with how poorly I'm managing it. Crescent seems like the much more reliable kill to me, at this point.

    You're not wrong here. Arguably Weaponmastery is too good a deal. We're pretty happy with the compromise Shikudo strikes between the two extremes (Weaponmastery and new class with duplicated secondary/tertiary skills).

    As for dispatch, remember that you can break a second leg on the same combo as the head break+needle. That might give you some ideas.

    UtianimaDochitha
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,917 Achaean staff
    Antonius said:
    Cooper said:
    It's extra bad when you have several classes and your monk class is in a slot that isn't #1. If I want to get shikudo I have to spend 850 credits. 
    A bit less if you do it this month, since converting to lessons gives you 7 instead of 6 (or was that last month?) per credit, but still a very hefty cost.


    This month!

  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,032 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited May 2017
    Makarios said:

    As for dispatch, remember that you can break a second leg on the same combo as the head break+needle. That might give you some ideas.
    If you needle+leg break all as one, then you've gotta put it before the first leg cures to keep them from standing, but it gives them a chance to just cure off the crushed throat before starting on the head/second leg. (If it matters, this isn't a hypothetical scenario against optimal curing, it seems to be where crushed throat was put in as a default in people's prio orders)

    So in total, you delay them a second from the curing the crushed throat, but you're delayed another second from having to needle again, so you're still .1 second or so short (9.0 to cure, vs 9.1 to dispatch). I'm probably still missing something, I'm sure, but without tekura's offset hits, it seems like the time constraints are pretty inflexible.
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,917 Achaean staff
    Ah, oops, I misunderstood your issue. There are a couple of ways to do it, but the easiest would be to pre break an arm to give yourself a headstart. Obviously that gives them opportunities to dodge it easier, but Shikudo is pretty fast so the window is small.
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,032 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited May 2017
    Ah, sounds like I wasn't too far off, then, thanks!
  • MindshellMindshell Member Posts: 319 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Aww, I really want a spec switch artie for this. I don't have the patience to wait nor the desire to tangle with lesson costs. /overt consumerism
    Dochitha
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,463 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2017
    So.... When is the polearm/bardiche utilisation skill getting coded into game? 

    This is a diagram of how @Makarios works his magic.
     :skull::bleep_bloop::skull:
     :star::bleep_bloop::star:
    :heart:  :bleep_bloop::heart:

    ShirszaeSena
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,621 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Keorin said:
    Makarios said:

    As for dispatch, remember that you can break a second leg on the same combo as the head break+needle. That might give you some ideas.
    If you needle+leg break all as one, then you've gotta put it before the first leg cures to keep them from standing, but it gives them a chance to just cure off the crushed throat before starting on the head/second leg. (If it matters, this isn't a hypothetical scenario against optimal curing, it seems to be where crushed throat was put in as a default in people's prio orders)

    So in total, you delay them a second from the curing the crushed throat, but you're delayed another second from having to needle again, so you're still .1 second or so short (9.0 to cure, vs 9.1 to dispatch). I'm probably still missing something, I'm sure, but without tekura's offset hits, it seems like the time constraints are pretty inflexible.

    Did you try it out Mak's way or just using numbers? Sometimes it works different in practice because the slight cure delays from each salve apply add up. I've been consistently pulling it off, even though it's tight. So if you're not, I'm not sure why...
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,621 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:

    Ok, so to answer some questions that keep coming up in messages:

    Q: What did you do to my mind command, it won't work anymore?

    A: Mind command cannot follow a Shikudo strike. You can still handaxe/command for team utility and such, just no forcing apply on breaks for trivial dispatches.

    Q: Did you accidentally delete Transition from Kaido?

    A: KAI TRANSITION is Tekura monk only.

    Q: I don't even have bodyblock now, how will I live?

    A: There aren't defences for mitigating damage, each form grants a defensive bonus alongside their other effects. Its slightly tankier than Tekura monk on average, a good deal more when in Tykonos (but very limited when in said form).

    Q: Can we change the gmcp fields for Shikudo monk to not include Tekura monk specific information?

    A: That's on the list for today.

    Q: Artefact staves?

    A: Soon.

    Q: Artefact skill switch?

    A: Undecided.

    Q: Can we have jumpkick?

    A: No.


    With the 100 lesson cost, and no swap Artie, everyone is basically transing two skills just to be able to use one, though. It's not like multiclass because multiclass can swap freely.

    :(
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