Blademasters OP?

Taryius

This past while I've seen a lot of complaints on blademasters, and the recent classleads seem to be calling for a lot of nerfs.

So I thought I'd ask, what are your guy's opinions on blademasters right now? Too strong, too reliable, too rng?

Discuss 

Armali

They have hilariously good anti-momentum tools (alleviate AND fitness for locks, and phoenix, mediate/hamstring/evade for disengage, delayed strike-impale for what's basically a hangedman clone that also pushes your offense), anti-prep tools (healthtrans to survive burst damage executions, augment for others), and if you don't have mana robes any good blademaster can fuck you up trivially with a two leg execution. Even if you do have mana robes, if you don't have a certain health threshold and they have a certain band level, you'll just can get mangle locked just as trivially and damaged out. A good Blademaster (@Kalila is the only one I've encountered that properly executes) will use a pre-impale sequence that allows only a razor-thin margin of escape.

People might point out that other classes can do pretty much all of the same stuff, but I'd disagree - most classes might have aspects of it (priest has great anti-momentum, but no real hard anti-prep, serpent has amazing disengages but not also no good anti-prep, monk gets close, etc.) but not all of it.

Taryius

The defensive tools do seem a bit over the top..

Healthtrans isn't that great as it's got a fairly poor scaling, no where near kai heal (20 health per shin, so 2000 health if at max shin) and can only be used once without building more shin. But it still helps.

Augment is pretty dumb. It stops a lot of classes that can't break both legs at the same time, or ones that use prone as a parry bypass and I agree something needs to be done there.

Impaling is an issue that's been around for a while.. And I have no idea how to stop it from being a defensive tool.

I don't think alleviate and fitness is a big issue(Might be wrong, I'm not very experienced)
But phoenix is.. Perhaps a windup should be associated for phoenix, and being proned during that windup stops it. It would prevent auto-phoenix on lock and give a chance for you to prevent it.

Dunno. Feel free to correct me, if I don't know what I'm talking about.

Kenway

They were designed as a glass cannon and then for some reason ended up with some of the best defensive options in the game but didnt really lose the cannon part.

Kenway

They've also always been powerful, outcries of OP just fluctuate based on active fighters who play as em. With knight specs, alchemist overhaul and then DW a lot of people just weren't playing it.

Kalila

Taryius said:

The defensive tools do seem a bit over the top..

Healthtrans isn't that great as it's got a fairly poor scaling, no where near kai heal (20 health per shin, so 2000 health if at max shin) and can only be used once without building more shin. But it still helps.

Augment is pretty dumb. It stops a lot of classes that can't break both legs at the same time, or ones that use prone as a parry bypass and I agree something needs to be done there.

Impaling is an issue that's been around for a while.. And I have no idea how to stop it from being a defensive tool.

I don't think alleviate and fitness is a big issue(Might be wrong, I'm not very experienced)
But phoenix is.. Perhaps a windup should be associated for phoenix, and being proned during that windup stops it. It would prevent auto-phoenix on lock and give a chance for you to prevent it.

Dunno. Feel free to correct me, if I don't know what I'm talking about.

Prone stops Shin Phoenix. Health Trans is percentage based, not a flat heal.

Taryius

Oh damn, Health trans is percentage based? I just assumed since when I used it I got a flat 20 per shin, and 2000 for a full reserve of shin. And Manatrans gave a flat 15. (Really odd percentages then 41% health, and 33.5% mana for a full shin reserve)

And yes, prone stops phoenix. But I don't know any classes that prone and give their final lock afflictions on the same balance. (Bar maybe serpent with a super lucky snake proc) so if you script it you can have Shin Phoenix fire on lock.

Kalila

For about each 10 shin you use, you heal for 5%, up o 50% at full shin, or thereabouts.

One time testing with 15 shin, it healed for more than 20 though, then the next day it was fine.

I dunno.

Asmodron

I feel a lot of the outcries of "BM OP" can be fixed with some very minor tweaks and additions...rather than the cries and over dramatics out there of "nerf it to the ground and burn it to ashes".


If Phoenix is an issue, we can just add a certain aff that will block its use. This has been done in the past to other cure abilities, like Bloodboil and thinning blood. I believe Makarios even said at one point that he likes to recycle unused affs/venoms into combat again, so this could work in this case perhaps.

Making the 'strike-impale' trick no longer a thing may help too. Frankly it always kind of felt like a loophole being gamed.

Healthtrans and Manatrans are fine. We have several classes with the capability to heal themselves under pressure, and I believe Healthtrans isnt even the worst of them out there. If need be, the amount healed per shin can be tweaked...but I really dont think it needs to come to that.

Augment only really has purpose when you're prone...which is also why it can be so breaking. I can see the frustration that can cause for prep classes. I'm not against removing it honestly. Blademasters are effective enough without it.


As for Voidfist, again im not against just flat out removing it. Blademasters are effective enough with limb prep without it. I'm not sure Blademasters ever were suppose to be "affliction heavy" to begin with. It always felt more like a supplement to their offense.




Other than these changes, I dont think the class needs any other hits. It's damage is good and limb-prep is pretty good once mastered. I'm not against Blademasters having evade or hamstring, as some utility is expected from any class (Let's not forget it is only temporary evade too).

Armali

None of those are 'very minor tweaks and additions'. You basically just suggested removing half of their anti-prep and neutering/blocking half their anti-momentum.

Kenway

I felt negative about strike impale once too. Until I played the class and realized the necessity of pre impaleslash on some opponents. Perhaps it shouldnt be quite so easy as it is and with multiple ways to achieve it, but it definitely needs to be there. I personally want voidfist to give the BM 100% accuracy against the afflicted target (sans clumsiness and multislash). I can't think of any class that can't readily stick clumsiness that I'd want to stand in a room with in Arash. And for other stances I don't see a problem. BM is one of the few classes that can miss their target without any interference and I kinda feel like that is part of the reason they are given their afflicting abilities. Sort of a hit confirm for their main attack that got really out of hand. I dunno, just rambling at work and honestly fairly minimal experience as the class (tho a whole lot fighting it) so feel free to ignore me.

Taryius

I have no issues in removing augment.
 
I don't see a lot of need in class specific anti-prep tools. Good tumbles, icewalls, and all that are not class specific and offer good defense from prone prep setups like disembowels, backbreakers, brokenstar, etc. Blademasters don't need it as well (Neither do monks, but that's a -whole- different discussion)

Calira

Kenway said:

I felt negative about strike impale once too. Until I played the class and realized the necessity of pre impaleslash on some opponents.

There's plenty of ways to get a pre-impaleslash without relying on delayed strike -> impale. Making the impale a bit harder to get would reduce the reward for using it as a spammable form of simultaneous hinder, parry bypass and willpower attrition.

Kenway

Taryius said:

I have no issues in removing augment.
 
I don't see a lot of need in class specific anti-prep tools. Good tumbles, icewalls, and all that are not class specific and offer good defense from prone prep setups like disembowels, backbreakers, brokenstar, etc. Blademasters don't need it as well (Neither do monks, but that's a -whole- different discussion)

Augment was added specifically because of blademasters inability to fight mounted against monk and I wanna say to help against scythe? It's stated in the announces somewhere I think. Pretty awesome potentially against 2h and DwB as well. And SnB and Sylvan and DwC and I suppose you might have a point.

Asmodron

Armali said:

None of those are 'very minor tweaks and additions'. You basically just suggested removing half of their anti-prep and neutering/blocking half their anti-momentum.

My suggestions are at least within reason and actually give specifics to changes, rather than the childish outcries by others for months now.

Phoenix can easily have a counter aff. Healthtrans is fine. The strike impale trick always felt more like a loophole being abused rather than intended strategy and I can see it going.

That leaves voidfist and augment. Augment was never really needed and felt more deterimental to game fun than adding anything. Voidfist...rather than pull my hair out and cuss at Blademasters like others, I mentioned the general logics of. Blademasters werent really using it beforehand and did fine and it iust seems out of place for their concept. Rather than cry nerf, im specifically saying it just isnt required. Quite simple.


It is far better than mentions of "nerf damage" "nerf limb prep" "longer balance"

Kenway

Calira said:

Kenway said:

I felt negative about strike impale once too. Until I played the class and realized the necessity of pre impaleslash on some opponents.

There's plenty of ways to get a pre-impaleslash without relying on delayed strike -> impale. Making the impale a bit harder to get would reduce the reward using it as a spammable form of simultaneous hinder, parry bypass and willpower attrition.

Web, delayed strike balanceslash, delayed strike neck, 3-4strike neck, shield raze, leg breaks. Am I missing anything? I agree it should be harder (I think I agree? You're saying it should be harder right?) I just also think it still needs to be a thing.

Calira

Kenway said:

Calira said:

Kenway said:

I felt negative about strike impale once too. Until I played the class and realized the necessity of pre impaleslash on some opponents.

There's plenty of ways to get a pre-impaleslash without relying on delayed strike -> impale. Making the impale a bit harder to get would reduce the reward using it as a spammable form of simultaneous hinder, parry bypass and willpower attrition.

Web, delayed strike balanceslash, delayed strike neck, 3-4strike neck, shield raze, leg breaks. Am I missing anything? I agree it should be harder (I think I agree? You're saying it should be harder right?) I just also think it still needs to be a thing.

Timed pommel/knees after pretty much any balance consumption, Void -> pommel neck spam, balanceslash infuselightning + strike neck on kelp eat. There's probably way more, but just those should suffice for every possible situation

Kenway

Calira said:

Kenway said:

Calira said:

Kenway said:

I felt negative about strike impale once too. Until I played the class and realized the necessity of pre impaleslash on some opponents.

There's plenty of ways to get a pre-impaleslash without relying on delayed strike -> impale. Making the impale a bit harder to get would reduce the reward using it as a spammable form of simultaneous hinder, parry bypass and willpower attrition.

Web, delayed strike balanceslash, delayed strike neck, 3-4strike neck, shield raze, leg breaks. Am I missing anything? I agree it should be harder (I think I agree? You're saying it should be harder right?) I just also think it still needs to be a thing.

Timed pommel/knees after pretty much any balance consumption, Void -> pommel neck spam, balanceslash infuselightning + strike neck on kelp eat. There's probably way more, but just those should suffice for every possible situation

I'll take that as a yes, we agree heh

Dochitha

I have heard delayed strike was not a design intention. How true is that?

Taryius

Delayed strike.. That's striking while off balance from your initial slash but not immediatly after?

If so.. That's seems like a bug, or something not intended

Asmodron

The delayed strike concept is based on how slashing with a strike uses no eq as well as a play on striking alone. It allows one to catch someone paralysed while the blademaster wad on balance foe impale