Divorcing stats from race

Keorin

No, I'm concerned that having chosen a race for rp's sake will be a permanent limitation, forcing me to choose which aspect of my character and play is most important.

In the constant arms race that is combat, two strength is always going to be important. It's not -required-, no, but it's still a big deal, particularly on the lower ends of the scale. For monks, strength determines what level of defensive artifacts you can threaten with damage. Having less will always mean you've got people you can't get, but you could as a better race.

Minifie

Aerek said:

Don't be foolish. Of course you'll always be 2 points behind a Troll, but you're not required to max out a stat just to fight effectively. An Atavian Runewarden with 17 STR will struggle, but an Atavian Runewarden with 20 STR instead of the maximum 22 is still a scary mother fucker. 13 STR on a Monk doesn't quite get it done, but 14-15 STR is respectable, so an L1 or L2 artefact allows an Atavian to find the same success that a Human or Troll would starting out. By virtue of choosing a sub-optimal race in the first place, I think it's already clear that @Keorin is not overly concerned with min-maxing stats, she just wants to be able to compete on a serious level, which is achievable.

For 1250 credits, of course.

or a race change, which is free, or 100cr, so assuming equal spenditure, keo could have 16str with trait as xoran and 14 con with 150 cr spare, or 15str 12 con atavian with flying. If I was going to srs pvp RP would lose to that IMO.

Ahmet

Rip. Missed last page. Nevermind.

Tahquil

Good god you don't know how good you have it already. Bring back the old days before stat packs and we'll start hearing you squeal for real, my little piggies!

Minifie

Tahquil said:

Good god you don't know how good you have it already. Bring back the old days before stat packs and we'll start hearing you squeal for real, my little piggies!

Just bring back dragon occie chaoswaves and kaichoke from subs. Also 27str paladin DSLs. 

Asmodron

Ah good times.

Remember the heavy weaknesses to fire in several? Hilarious

Antonius

Aerek said:

Don't be foolish. Of course you'll always be 2 points behind a Troll, but you're not required to max out a stat just to fight effectively. An Atavian Runewarden with 17 STR will struggle, but an Atavian Runewarden with 20 STR instead of the maximum 22 is still a scary mother fucker. 13 STR on a Monk doesn't quite get it done, but 14-15 STR is respectable, so an L1 or L2 artefact allows an Atavian to find the same success that a Human or Troll would starting out. By virtue of choosing a sub-optimal race in the first place, I think it's already clear that @Keorin is not overly concerned with min-maxing stats, she just wants to be able to compete on a serious level, which is achievable.

Sure, artefacts can make you competitive. I'll agree with that. That's not the same thing as making up the difference though, since there's always a tradeoff and you're never as competitive as you would be if you'd picked that base 13 race instead.

20 strength as a Runewarden, for a base 11 race, requires purchasing level 3 gauntlets at 2500 credits. 20 strength as a Runewarden, for a base 13 strength race, requires purchasing level 1 gauntlets at 500 credits. If the base 13 guy also bought level 3 gauntlets, they'd have the option of choosing a racial specialisation that focused on another stat such as constitution. Alternatively they could use the 2000 credit difference to purchase 3 points of constitution instead, so they're now three stat points - rather than two - up on you.

You can partially cover up the issues with your race by spending a lot of money, but you'll never be as good as you could be. That's not a great system, especially when you consider the costs involved.

Sobriquet

I really like the fact races have different stats, it makes you play a race more suited (if you want, of course) to the class you play. Troll Knights should be hitting harder that Grook Knights for example. If you start having full stat packs for races you take that away, we may as well all just be human. This, of course, is a blurred line with multi class though as Farrah said above. 

Aerek

Keorin said:

No, I'm concerned that having chosen a race for rp's sake will be a permanent limitation, forcing me to choose which aspect of my character and play is most important.

In the constant arms race that is combat, two strength is always going to be important. It's not -required-, no, but it's still a big deal, particularly on the lower ends of the scale. For monks, strength determines what level of defensive artifacts you can threaten with damage. Having less will always mean you've got people you can't get, but you could as a better race.

I agree with you, but bolded is exactly my point. STR matters more on the lower end than the higher end, thus L1 or L2 gauntlets can bridge the gap at the lower end of the scale and remove any "limitations" placed on you by race. No, you can't achieve the same 18 STR as a Troll, but I think that's mostly numbers envy; I really can't think of anyone you could kill with 18 STR that you can't kill with 15--and I can think of a few people you probably still wouldn't kill with 18--so I don't feel you're "limited" once you reach a baseline effectiveness.

Cheap? No, but I like that races have different pros/cons. If you want to min/max purely for PK, you can do that. If you want to pursue RP as a non-ideal race, but still be good at PK, you can also do that, it just costs a bit more.

Antonius said:

Sure, artefacts can make you competitive. I'll agree with that. That's not the same thing as making up the difference though, since there's always a tradeoff and you're never as competitive as you would be if you'd picked that base 13 race instead.

I agree, but I don't think this is a problem. I think tradeoffs are a good thing as long as everyone can achieve a reasonable chance of success as any race, which I feel is true. I played a Human Runewarden without Gauntlets and never felt limited by my 18 STR. Trolls' 19 STR and their higher artefacted max never -mattered-, because 18 was all that was necessary to fight on a competitive level. Atavians with 17 STR struggled, but they could pick up L1s and compete on the same level I did, which I like to think was respectable.

I get where both of you are coming from, I think the argument is more 'want vs need', and whether our RP choices should have zero impact on our characters' mechanics.

Gwynrii

Why not have race traits only pertain to denizens bashing?

Ahmet

Because it's impossible to do that with at least half of the current race traits.

Flight. Leap. No armour. Stun on hit. Breathing fire/lighting pipes. Headstomp. Celerity. Nightvision. I'm sure there's more I've not mentioned.

Gwynrii

I mean, converting the race stats into traits, somehow.

Achilles

Time for one of those amazing charts showing the breakdown of race/class/specialization again on the active population.

And stats packs still make a difference (Achilles is Xoran for the +1 str), how many rajamalas are there now vs 5 years ago. How many artefact/credut donations to sirens are there now? 

Keorin

Aerek said:

I agree with you, but bolded is exactly my point. STR matters more on the lower end than the higher end, thus L1 or L2 gauntlets can bridge the gap at the lower end of the scale and remove any "limitations" placed on you by race. No, you can't achieve the same 18 STR as a Troll, but I think that's mostly numbers envy; I really can't think of anyone you could kill with 18 STR that you can't kill with 15--and I can think of a few people you probably still wouldn't kill with 18--so I don't feel you're "limited" once you reach a baseline effectiveness.

Cheap? No, but I like that races have different pros/cons. If you want to min/max purely for PK, you can do that. If you want to pursue RP as a non-ideal race, but still be good at PK, you can also do that, it just costs a bit more.

Though I'm afraid I don't have the artifacts I'd need to test this for certain, I'm confident that there would be a significant difference between 15 and 17 strength. Unless you mean "completely impossible to kill," in which case sure, but it was never a matter of theoretical capabilities, it's a matter of significant advantages and disadvantages. Would you honestly argue that a troll monk with gauntlets isn't scarier then one without?

In some ways that's beside the point for me personally, though, since it's unlikely I'll be able to afford gauntlets any time in the near future, and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to justify the purchase. When you say "pay a bit more," it's a 300$ difference in real life terms, and it's just crazy to me that someone would suggest that's a reasonable price for -roleplay-.

Would the game world really be a better place if I reincarnated into a race that I have no interest in roleplaying as?

Tahquil

When do the dimishing returns kick in again?

Anedhel

Eh. I absolutely cannot kill a handful of people with 22 strength as Tsol'aa, whom I could as a 15 str base race (Proficy and similarly artied up Runewardens).

I don't mind that too much, since they've spent like a gajillion bucks for that privilege, but you -do- hit a cap eventually, though I'll admit there's only a handful of people I'd say it would apply to. 

Sarathai

Tahquil said:

When do the dimishing returns kick in again?

Anything past 12.

Minifie

I think I like the idea of having to do a time consuming quest that's more indepth than language lessons to make yourself remove the stat weakness, so say I am a siren, 13str, I can get that to 15 with relevant 2 pt losses elsewhere by doing 2 trials, costing gold, some resources and other tasks. Then instead of 'she is a beautiful siren' she could be 'she is a beautiful siren with a well chiseled physique". This way, you CAN keep stat packs, RP it as such, but if you want to remove the stat difference you get an extra desc line that shows "she beautiful, but you can't be this super skinny massive boobed chicky".

Anedhel

I don't think that's a good idea, unless everyone's capped at 15. I don't want trolls with a 15 base adding +2 to their strength. 

If you eliminate 13's, it should be fine,  14 is a very usable number.

Minifie

Anedhel said:

I don't think that's a good idea, unless everyone's capped at 15. I don't want trolls with a 15 base adding +2 to their strength. 

If you eliminate 13's, it should be fine,  14 is a very usable number.

It's solely to divorce packs. Trolls would do it to make their int/dex/con 15 but strength isn't available. Essentially it "unlocks" the non 15 stat packs to reach 15, but at the cost of tightening your freedom with racial description. It'd be quite an undertaking, but I mean, yeah.

Anedhel

Having a 15 and a 14 both in one statpack is also a bad idea, though. Unless you're saying some races can do it and others can't, which will be seen as unfair. 

I'd honestly prefer a flat base with flexible points you can attribute, instead of starting with current specs and being able to augment those specs. What you're suggesting basically amounts to artefacts, which really just make the gap bigger. 

Aodfionn

yesplz to old racial stats

rise, my trollish brethren!

Austere

Aodfionn said:

yesplz to old racial stats

rise, my trollish brethren!

17 base int as a grook? You have my vote.  Bring on the ray n pray.

Minifie

Anedhel said:

Having a 15 and a 14 both in one statpack is also a bad idea, though. Unless you're saying some races can do it and others can't, which will be seen as unfair. 

I'd honestly prefer a flat base with flexible points you can attribute, instead of starting with current specs and being able to augment those specs. What you're suggesting basically amounts to artefacts, which really just make the gap bigger. 

No, it would basically unlock the already existing +2 -2, so siren is 11/12/12/13, so after the quest it would be 13/12/12/11 when considering the stat pack, and then becomes 15/12/12/10 in return. 

Anedhel

Yes, but you still have disparities in how you end up. For example, using Strength as the measure:

Troll Mercenary 15 12 12 10
Dwarf Brawler 14 11 13 11
Tsol'aa Ranger 14 12 11 12
Atavian Exemplar 13 13 12 11
Vindicator 14 12 13 10
Warrior 13 12 12 12

If we take your 'even-making' formula, and add whatever it takes to 15, subtracting the difference from the next highest stat, you'd still have disparate numbers. 

Troll would still be 15 12 12 10, Dwarf'd be 15 11 12 11, Tsol'aa'd be 15 12 11 11 (For most people, intelligence is more important than dexterity), Atavian'd be 15 11 12 11, Horkval'd be at 15 12 12 10, and Grooks probably 15 12 11 11. Not a huge difference, but a few races end up with 11 in constitution, which, for most strength classes, is less beneficial than having that 12 anywhere else. Not to mention, with stats so evenly matched, there's no real reason not to take certain races for their secondary benefits (If all stats are equal, not sure why you wouldn't be a human, for the bashing, or something else for whatever resistance you prefer). 

With a flat base and attributable points, for example: Base of two 12's and two 11's. At level 20, you get a +2, at level 50, a +1, and at 80, another +1, but you can't exceed 15 in any one stat, you could reach the same compromise if you min/max (15 12 11 11), or you can spread it out a little differently (14 12 12 11; 13 13 13 11; 14 13 11 11, etc.), giving people the flexibility to customise however they want to. 

If you want to completely divorce race from mechanics, fine. Make it an actual divorce, and make everything equal. If you don't, then there'll always be advantages that people can (and will!) munchkin. 

(For the record, I really hate the idea of a descriptor going with racial specialisation. My character is strength-focused, but I've always roleplayed it as having to do with his faith, not with his body. I don't want to be forced to play a burly Tsol'aa, since that's not the way I see him, or play him.) 

ETA: I'd rather personally tie stats to level, than have a quest involved, specially if it costs a lot of money. 

Minifie

I'm more interested on complete separation too, but sometimes you gotta meet people half way too.

Sarathai

Austere said:

Aodfionn said:

yesplz to old racial stats

rise, my trollish brethren!

17 base int as a grook? You have my vote.  Bring on the ray n pray.

 Bring back Dragonclass while we're at it.

Cooper

They did. It's Avatar!

Telinus

Make racial RP valid - race you choose is the race you stay, gem of reincarnation opens up all stat packs to that race you are.

Antonius

Why should race be one of the few things you're not allowed to change after choosing it? You can switch city, class, order, etc. You can even switch name for a certain period after character creation.

Being able to switch race doesn't make racial RP "invalid" in the same way that being able to switch class doesn't make class RP "invalid" or being able to switch Order makes Order RP "invalid".