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Arties for Serpents?

Oxy
Oxy Member Posts: 3
I have many in my sights, and I won't be able to get any for a long time.

That said, I like planning ahead, and knowing what I'm saving up for.

So what do you recommend is best? I heard artie dirks are a must, are bows required too?

And how about stat arties or defensive stuff?

I imagine in the long run if I want to do any stealth stuff the gem/veil are sort of a must, but those are crazy expensive so I'm not getting my hopes up any time soon.

Comments

  • Antonius
    Antonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    In no particular order (i.e. I am not suggesting an order to buy things in):

    Constitution, bracelets (+% health/mana), health sip ring and health regen ring are always worth buying, since they'll benefit you no matter what class. Shield of Absorption is amazing for offsetting Serpents relatively low health, too, and is usable as most other classes.

    Level 2 dirk makes a pretty noticeable difference to doublestab speed, and will reduce the frequency at which they get to eat two herbs between dstabs.

    Dexterity allows you to pick a racial specialisation that focuses on constitution rather than dexterity, while still achieving a reasonable dstab speed. It's cheaper to spec dexterity and buy constitution, but if you can afford to do both there's no reason not to since it means you don't have hardly any health. I think dexterity will be one of the last purchases you'd make (if you bought it at all).

    Bow is great if you want to snipe in group fights, otherwise you can live without it.

    Oxy
  • Asmodron
    Asmodron Member Posts: 3,145 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Some things to consider for your purchase.


    For combat purposes you want a fast dstab, of at least less than 2 seconds per dstab. To do this you need to consider the formula. This is based on what i know of recent formula, in case something has changed.

    A normal unaffected dstab is about 2.8 seconds recovery

    Every point of dex above 13 reduces recovery by 0.14s

    Every level of an artie dirk reduces it by 0.2 each. 

    There is a cap to how low it can go. I believe 1.8,  not certain on this.

    Nimble then reduces balance recovery overall by roughly 0.2


    You can by race spec get naturally 15 dex max with 16 by trait. That is a 0.42 reduction at 16 dex. 

    I would suggest at least a level 1 dirk if you want to get into combat.
    Bade
  • Sena
    Sena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The minimum balance is 2.1s before nimble, or 2s with a L3 dirk. Nimble is also 10%, not 0.2s. The rest of the numbers are correct.
    BadeUtianima
  • Asmodron
    Asmodron Member Posts: 3,145 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ah there we go
  • Asmodron
    Asmodron Member Posts: 3,145 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2017
    So cap is 2.1 or 2.0 with a level 3 dirk. With nimble at 10% that can reduce it by roughly 2 seconds at cap.


    If you have 16 dex and a level 1 dirk then you are at 2.18. With nimble you can get to below 2. Of course...you dont -have- to, but it just makes it much more possible to work.


    As for bows...you dont really need it. It can be fun for groups and such...but there is no big combat changes to having an artie bow.
    Bade
  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2020
    Doublestab cap is 1.825~1.85, which you can hit without Nimble.  I don't use Nimble on serpent and I average around 1.9 with a 200ms latency (19 dex).  Haven't tested over 19 but I suspect you can get down to the ~1.825 cap with an elixir or truefavor.

    For artefacts in order I recommend level 1 dirk, level 2 dirk, WoT/Lash, SoA, bracelets, level 1 sip ring set, silver fangs, then level 1 or 2 dex boots.  For PvP you'll also need artefact tattoos (boar, moon, shield, and.l optionally megalith/ox).  Get dragon ASAP of course, and use runes when you bash.  Algiz+scales+SoA+scalemail is like 45-50% damage reduction right off the bat.

    For whip, all you need is whip of taming for PvP.  It's the fastest whip in the game and works for everything except for garrote (meaning every pvp ability works).    Lash is needed for bashing.  I actually have a full level 3 set of everything even a Longsword for breaking/resetting limbs, but I still don't own a single lash or artefact whip because they simply have no use whatsoever in pvp.

    If you want to be serious about pvp you'll also need an aldar Diadem and buckawns.

    IMO meta build on serp is max dex with quick-witted, not Nimble, as you can get doublestab+illusion and doublestab+flay down to ~2.1s with aldar.

    If I was going to start a new serpent tomorrow though, frankly, my first purchase would just be Thoth's Fang.  Doublestab speed is king on serpent.

    Without low-ish dex (less than 18) you will spec Nimble, Agile, and something of your choosing (I like Expert diagnoser but other options are ok).  Make sure you're Raja/Mhun striker which is max dex.  Raja has 1 more con (ideal for bashing), Mhun gets extra movement speed (pvp). 

    SoA is a must for bashing.  Level 1 sip/regen are cheap and will also make a world of difference.  
  • Mizik
    Mizik Member Posts: 2,253 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2020
    God damn. This man really 4 year necroed a thread with 4 year old irrelevant info.

    Edit: If you're not rajamala you'll want to save for a dagger of reincarnation so you can get lv2 faster balance, but you'll want to save 2000cr to offset the lv2 sip penalty.
    image
    Cooper
  • Zulah
    Zulah Member Posts: 837 @ - Epic Achaean
    @Saonji that's correct right? Shecks said:
    Doublestab cap is 1.825~1.85, which you can hit without Nimble. 

  • Saonji
    Saonji Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited December 2020
    Shecks said:
    Doublestab cap is 1.825~1.85, which you can hit without Nimble.  I don't use Nimble on serpent and I average around 1.9 with a 200ms latency (19 dex).  Haven't tested over 19 but I suspect you can get down to the ~1.825 cap with an elixir or truefavor.
    No you don't, and no you can't. You need Nimble to hit the dstab cap.

    For artefacts in order I recommend level 1 dirk, level 2 dirk, WoT/Lash, SoA, bracelets, level 1 sip ring set, silver fangs, then level 1 or 2 dex boots.  For PvP you'll also need artefact tattoos (boar, moon, shield, and.l optionally megalith/ox).  Get dragon ASAP of course, and use runes when you bash.  Algiz+scales+SoA is like 45-50% damage reduction right off the bat.
    WoT works for flay, but not garrote (and serpent lash is faster for flay). Bashing with it is a terrible idea. That's also a pretty terrible order to get stuff in. Btw, neither algiz nor scales adds up to that much. It's like 25%, shield boosts it to like 30 because of diminishing returns.

    For whip, all you need is whip of taminh for PvP.  It's the fastest whip in the game and works for everything except for garrote (meaning every pvp ability works).    Lash is needed for bashing.  I actually have a full level 3 set of everything even a Longsword for breaking/resetting limbs, but I still don't own a single lash or artefact whip because they simply have no use whatsoever in pvp.
    No it doesn't. You need to brush up on your information.

    If you want to be serious about pvp you'll also need an aldar Diadem and buckawns.
    Buckawns, maybe. Diadem isn't necessary at all.

    IMO meta build on serp is max dex with quick-witted, not Nimble, as you can get doublestab+illusion and doublestab+flay down to ~2.1s with aldar.
    In everyone else's opinion (and facts, really) you're wrong. Btw you can't combo dstab+flay.

    If I was going to start a new serpent tomorrow though, frankly, my first purchase would just be Thoth's Fang.  Doublestab speed is king on serpent.

    Without low-ish dex (less than 18) you will spec Nimble, Agile, and something of your choosing (I like Expert diagnoser but other options are ok).  Make sure you're Raja/Mhun striker which is max dex.  Raja has 1 more con (ideal for bashing), Mhun gets extra movement speed (pvp).
    Expert diagnoser hasn't been good for well over a year. If you take it, you're stupid.

    SoA is a must for bashing.  Level 1 sip/regen are cheap and will also make a world of difference. 
    This is about the only thing you've said that is correct.

    Not only did you respond to a super old thread, your info is mostly wrong.
  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Mizik said:
    God damn. This man really 4 year necroed a thread with 4 year old irrelevant info.

    Edit: If you're not rajamala you'll want to save for a dagger of reincarnation so you can get lv2 faster balance, but you'll want to save 2000cr to offset the lv2 sip penalty.
    Holy s---- my bad.  Something's wrong though, this post showed up as like the 4th item down on my Recent Discussions page.  That's why I replied to it.
  • Mizik
    Mizik Member Posts: 2,253 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Saonji :(

    That was mean, man. Just help the man.
    image
  • Lucianus
    Lucianus Member Posts: 425 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    expert diagnoser got nerfed into the ground (for good reasons). don't take that.


    CLASSLEADS NEWS #11                                     (10/13/2017 at 16:44)  
    From   : Makarios, the Meticulous
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: Classleads 2017 q4: batch 3
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We've just loaded up the third batch of classleads for this quarter. Here are the details:

    Dragoncraft
    -----------
    * Expanding on previous changes, when DEVOUR enters its specialed channeled state (where it becomes much
    harder to stop), broken limbs and being off equilibrium will no longer interrupt it.

    Necromancy
    ----------
    * There is now a short delay between a SOULSPEAR hitting and GRAVEHANDS manifesting in the target's room.
    * There is no longer any ESSENCE lost in the transfer via DRAIN, if said DRAIN is carried out either in the
    MHALDOR ISLE or MHALDOR CITY areas. This required some fairly major changes to how DRAIN functions, so bug any
    inconsistencies with old behaviour.

    Physiology
    ----------
    * EVALUATE without the partial specifier now has an internal cooldown of 1 second rather than an equilibrium
    cost.
    * REAVE has been sped up at all three stages (most significantly at the all 4 tempers stage).
    * SULPHUR based homunculi will now afflict with disrupt if their attack drains someone to under 75% of maximum
    mana.

    Seafaring
    ---------
    * WAR GALLIES rate of leakage is no longer set far higher than other ships. This might require further
    adjustments.

    Traits
    -----
    * EXPERT DIAGNOSER now requires and consumes balance( around 2 seconds). I have enabled free trait switching
    for the next 24 hours so you can fix your traits if desired.

    Weaponry
    --------
    * You can now THROW items while gripping is up.

    Misc
    ----
    * All the various forms of FEAR now cancel tumble before the valid movement checks. So for instance if you
    rush about in fear but are paralysed/have broken legs/etc, the tumble will now be interrupted whereas
    previously it would not be.
    * TRAMPLE via the ARACHNIDEYE talisman now only breaks two limbs all of the time if the target is prone.
    Otherwise it will always break one and have a chance to break 2.

    Enjoy!

    Penned by My hand on the 6th of Scarlatan, in the year 754 AF.

    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Having a balance doesn't make it worthless.  If you feel that way though, then of course don't use it.
  • Cooper
    Cooper Member Posts: 5,782 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I can't believe how much wrong information Shecks managed to put into one post. Truly impressive.

  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2020
    You guys never change.  

    What also hasn't changed is that having an air of superiority isn't as useful as actually testing things and knowing what you're doing, and isn't a substitute for 15 years of experience in one class.

    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."

    If you want to have a real conversation between peers instead of engaging in this toxic nonsense, I'm keen to - otherwise, just let the thread die.  As I said, I necro'd it by accident due to some bug on the forums placing it high in the Recent Discussions tab despite the last post being in 2017.


  • Armali
    Armali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,432 @ - Epic Achaean
    You should put serverside timestamps on.
    Shecks
  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Armali said:
    You should put serverside timestamps on.
    Those are serverside timestamps in my prompt, just formatted.
  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 896 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yeah, uh, hate to break it to you but that looks almost -exactly- 10% slower than what Thoth's serpents usual doublestab at.

    And reduction/resistance is a flat reduction, you're confusing it with armour. The Ring of Magus is really just magical armour.

    Every attack has a flat component and a percent component. Armour reduces the flat amount, resistance will effect both. Denizen do not get percent components, so armour is 100% effective versus them.

    Algiz is 10% resist-all. So is scales. SoA is physical resistance only, 11%. Probably is diminishing returns, haven't tested myself but would not be surprised, but even without your numbers are off.
  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2020
    Taryius said:
    Yeah, uh, hate to break it to you but that looks almost -exactly- 10% slower than what Thoth's serpents usual doublestab at.

    And reduction/resistance is a flat reduction, you're confusing it with armour. The Ring of Magus is really just magical armour.

    Every attack has a flat component and a percent component. Armour reduces the flat amount, resistance will effect both. Denizen do not get percent components, so armour is 100% effective versus them.

    Algiz is 10% resist-all. So is scales. SoA is physical resistance only, 11%. Probably is diminishing returns, haven't tested myself but would not be surprised, but even without your numbers are off.
    Regarding damage types / resists, I think we're saying the same thing - conversation just got muddled by people in between confusing the context.  I was clearly talking about bashing (and was, to be fair, assuming npcs are using physical damage which isn't always the case as well as counting SoA absorption procs, and the reduction from Avoidance which is almost 15% on its own).  

    Regarding doublestab, it's definitely true that Nimble gives you a faster doublestab almost without exception (the exception being if you are hitting speedcap).  What I said was:
    I don't use Nimble on serpent and I average around 1.9 with a 200ms latency (19 dex).  Haven't tested over 19 but I suspect you can get down to the ~1.825 cap with an elixir or truefavor.
    Which is all true.

    In Nimble I can get down below 1.8 with Nimble, but as I said, I haven't tested above 19 dex without Nimble to see if it can be matched.  I assume it can, with a few more Dex (which would be grossly impractical just possible).

    If you aren't using illusions, you absolutely, without a doubt, should go Nimble.  Most of today's serpent alts ignore the existence of illusion though or use it extremely rarely though, which is why they don't see value in a 2.3s doublestab+illusion or flay+illusion.  We differ on opinion there mostly because we differ in understanding how powerful illusions are in today's meta.  shrug.

    One thing I must concede is that I said:
    Doublestab cap is 1.825~1.85,
    which isn't the case.  I re-tested it about a week or two back but must have screwed something up.  I'm able to hit 1.72s (peak server tic timing, average is closer to 1.79) with Nimble and 19 dex (thoths), which without nimble would probably require something absurd like 23-25 dex which is effectively out of scope of realistic combat.

    I am willing to have 1.83s dstabs instead of 1.73s dstabs in exchange for reducing my illusion combo to 2.3 seconds (where your doublestab speed doesn't matter anyways as it's your eq you're waiting on).  To me, it's extremely worth it, but to people who aren't using illusions almost every round, they'd be right to feel that it's not worth it.  In other words I don't really care what the dstab speed cap is, as in my personal definition of serpent meta, you'll usually be dependent on EQ, which is why I go QW.  QW also speeds up many other important things including things that keep you alive, like (if i'm not mistaken) restore, diagnose, shield tattoo, etc etc.

    If you're bashing in serpent, there is no question:  Go Nimble.
  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2020
    next time I have a TF i'll test with 23 dex to see if I can hit the cap without nimble.  I'm guessing you'd need more thanks to diminishing returns but we shall see :).  At this moment I can't even say definitively what the cap even is, or confirm that there even is one.  I think it used to be around 1.75 (before dex scaling change) and thought the new one was around the same, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

    Just tested it with 22 dex.  Lowest was 1.597s (server timestamps), with average around 1.65s.  This tells me there probably isn't a cap, or if there is one, it requires obscene levels of dex (as in highest possible dex race + racial traits + agile trait + elixir + laytronite + multiple truefavors) to hit it.
  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2020
    still if I queue like 10 doublestabs they average out at 1.8s even with significantly lower dex, so the mechanics seem a little strange to me.  Single stabs can get below 1.6s but balance queue'd they never get below 1.8s.  Odd.  Time for some science.
  • Armali
    Armali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,432 @ - Epic Achaean
    Those are just your client-side timestamps.
  • Sophi
    Sophi Rally PointMember Posts: 160 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Good luck
  • Jovolo
    Jovolo Member Posts: 3,339 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah man, you're using client timestamps in your prompt. They're identical lol
  • Cooper
    Cooper Member Posts: 5,782 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    His corrections made him even more wrong.

    Shocks, dstab caps at 15 dex with Thoth's and your balance times are completely wrong for literally everything.

    You are the one that misunderstands the "illusion meta" because you over value them on low skill opponents that rely completely on AK. Those people can be beaten easily without illusions.

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