Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 6.2K All Categories
- 3.1K Everything Achaea
- 1.5K North of Thera
- 26 Archives of the Terraformer
- 257 The Matsuhama Arena
- 885 The Golden Dais of Creation
- 299 The Scarlattan Theatre
- 149 The Blank Canvas
- 2K Getting Help
- 412 General Questions
- 258 Quick Class Questions
- 1.3K Tech Support
- 313 Client Help
- 486 Curing Systems and Scripts
- 841 Off-Topic
- 255 The Wander Inn
- 586 The Universal Membrane
- 298 Class Discussions
- 298 Individual Class Sections
- 20 Alchemist
- 9 Apostate
- 30 Blademaster
- 9 Depthswalker
- 14 Druid
- 4 Infernal
- 20 Jester
- 19 Magi
- 34 Monk
- 11 Occultist
- 8 Paladin
- 7 Priest
- 29 Runewarden
- 18 Sentinel
- 26 Serpent
- 20 Shaman
- 9 Sylvan
Getting the newbie experience back
Now I'll go ahead and say I've been playing this wonderful game off and on for bout 6 years now. I came back the other day and decided i'd create a new character. Now back when I first started playing the newbie experience was great. Starting out as a druid you'd be pulled out into the wilderness with a few other newbies. learn a few lessons get taught to burrow by an older druid sticking a shirt in the ground and you'd go get it. Morph a few times but mainly you'd be interacting with someone and learning the beginnings of playing your character and in your chosen house. These were some of my favorite moments in Achaea. I tried out a lot of cities and finally decided on Ashtan. Made a shaman, got took on hunting parties, sat in ashtan cursing my mentor and whoever else dared to step in the Deli of Disaster while I was "learning curses". So starting out in Achaea back in the day was made so much fun from all the interactions I had with other players.
So now i'm back started a new character, different name, different class, and having fun. But i'm noticing that the experience I had before as a new player just ain't their anymore. I feel like the new folks are learning the hard way not the fun way. Sure any help I needed I could ask and assistance would be to me momentarily. Hell I had a Jester from a different city come sit with me while I was transing out pranks. But beyond that the new player experience I had before just isn't around anymore.
I've been gone to long to figure out what happened or why. I just need to know what I need to do to give new players the same experience I had. Because in all honesty I wouldn't be playing this game today or writing this long post if it wasn't for all those friendly folks who spent so much time with new players back in the day.
So now i'm back started a new character, different name, different class, and having fun. But i'm noticing that the experience I had before as a new player just ain't their anymore. I feel like the new folks are learning the hard way not the fun way. Sure any help I needed I could ask and assistance would be to me momentarily. Hell I had a Jester from a different city come sit with me while I was transing out pranks. But beyond that the new player experience I had before just isn't around anymore.
I've been gone to long to figure out what happened or why. I just need to know what I need to do to give new players the same experience I had. Because in all honesty I wouldn't be playing this game today or writing this long post if it wasn't for all those friendly folks who spent so much time with new players back in the day.
3
Comments
I imagine it's part of the loss of class based guilds/houses so not everyone is following the same theme as you... but I've been trying to be reflective on my experiences so when I'm a vet again I can try to help provide that experience.
We've had a change in the guard since then. Things like taking class monopoly away from Guilds and making Houses, Auto class etc. Now House identity and City laid sort of on even grounds.
With the renaissance Houses were mostly gutted and then re-directed to support the city goal. You have to do city related tasks before you can even join a house and now people recognise what city you are from before what house you are in.
With all these changes there is a confusion on who is 'responsible' for raising newbs. There is a mix of people who think it is the city's job and those who think it is that of the Houses. In the end a person may only do a half-hearted job if they think that the edication of a novice is going to be, or is better supplemented elsewhere.
Sorry.
Do that for new players.
That's really all there is to it. The problem with it is that it is a fucking lot of work for an uncertain investment, and lots of players want to be spending their time doing other things.
I'm not convinced the current situation is bad in comparison to what it used to be though. It's just shifted from close personal contact interviews to tasks that are assigned to you and you carry out yourself. You can ask for help or assistance, but the focus is more on independant research/progress. Off course I only know the internal affairs of one single house, so I can't speak for other houses, but comparing my first guild/house encounter to my latest makes this stand out the most I think.
1.) The ability to retire characters means there's a lot of "novices" out there who are really artied and already know what they're doing. It takes some time to weed out who might even need legitimate help with anything. Though one has to be careful about dismissing these characters. Just because they have stuff doesn't mean they come from Achaea. They could be from a different IRE game, and there's still a lot of learning that goes into hopping from one IRE game to the next.
2.) Some people burn out on it. A lot of us who've been around for a while can probably tell a number of stories where we invested all this time, gold/credits, supplies, etc into novices just for them to suicide, disappear, change factions etc. You can lose a lot of your own stuff trying to help novices like that. Once that really starts adding up, it sucks. My best advice to anyone helping novices is to not give them everything right from the start. The best thing you can teach a novice is independence and self-sufficiency early on.
As a result the amount of attention we enjoyed as novices is now perceived as much less since people take for granted that the tasks cover all this technical stuff.
I mentioned before on another thread that the newbie intro has now become so stand-alone (probably in an effort to cater to new players who come in during the nearly empty off-peak hours), that as a novice you can find yourself feeling totally and utterly divorced from the goings-on in the city and find yourself lost once the tour ends.
Before, the learning curve was a mix of picking up the mechanics of the game while slowly being submersed (immersed?) in the culture and atmosphere of the city. All of a sudden, it's just bam, you learned all these things and now you're in a city. Now do your city tasks and join a House.
Also, I do believe that a lot of novice aides (myself included on alts and such) suddenly found themselves bereft of responsibility as now instead of taking the time to teach newbies things to get them on their feet, we now have to engage them on a more in-depth RP level from the get-go. And that can be equally daunting for experienced but casual players.
The standalone tour approach has its pros and cons, a lot of cities have not yet figured out how to approach this. When a newbie gets out of the pygmy dungeon they get announced on the city channel and people say hi etc. At the same time, the denizens bombard the newbie with a fresh bunch of tasks to complete. The question is how does a city ease themselves into the newbie's learning process without overloading the kid with too much interaction while they are trying to sort themselves out?
I was worried it was just me, but unless they're somehow doing it privately, I don't really see people interacting with each other any more than they're interacting with me.
Perhaps I'm too used to a tabletop experience. I just feel like there's not a lot of interaction. Just people out grinding or speaking privately. I'm not explaining it well, but I'm unsettled. I really expected some structure and camaraderie from at least my house - I only joined a house because everyone said the house was for socializing and giving you goals to strive towards.
Me: hi there!
Newb: Hello! *giggle*
Me: How are you doing?
Newb: Oh *giggle* you know *giggle* I went hunting with X *gigglegiggle* he's so handsome *gigglemeownuzzlepreen*
Me: ...I'm going to go now.
People do tend to talk to each other in those, and those types, of places.
I like you. I have a very good impression of you. And I feel horrible that the impression you have of Cyrene and Outriders is not what I would hope it would be.
The "laundry list" is sadly necessary, and most of the tasks are solo in nature for many reasons, not the least of which is that it is not fair for one person to need a second person to be able to advance.
Online is very different from offline, no doubt about it.
When I am on mIRC at times somebody will note that a channel is "boring" and I'll note that we're not there to entertain them, but they are free to entertain us. Yes, it is obnoxious of me (y'all could pretend to be shocked!), and on IRC most of the folks *are* huddled doing private chats of some sort or another.
In Achaea that translates to - yeah, a lot of folks sit back and wait to see what is going on, but very few folks initiate things beyond greetings or a few comments.
But in terms of "most folks talking privately" I personally do not find that to be the case in Achaea - although there are people who pair or triple etc. up to Hunt or other, uh, stuff.
My clans tend to be quiet, my channels tend to be quiet. I go about my business whether it is Hunting or Harvesting or Helping (yeah, nothing has changed in over 400 years of life) and look up and engage in whatever is happening on channel if it interests me, and ignore it if it does not.
Because you did raise this on channel I am going to seek you out IG in an IC way because I really do care.
Sad about this. I really am.
- To love another person is to see the face of G/d
- Let me get my hat and my knife
- It's your apple, take a bite
- Don't dream it ... be it
From what I've always seen, there are plenty of people who'd love more people to befriend and interact with, but you'll find a lot more of them by walking up and talking to people then you will at hanging around common social spots where everyone's half-afk anyways, or hoping for social activities in houses with useless leadership.
I had to remember though that I wasnt just coming back to Achaea. I had to forget everything I thought I new and start over. I had to not have an attitude and I had to actually BE a newbie to experience it again. I deleted every script on my computer, erryting. Started from zero. and I'll tell you what. I'm Addicted all over again. Right from the start my palms were sweating, every new aquaintance is much more cherished or hated. If you're going to be a newbie again you have to actually BE a newbie. So BE one.
With much of the learning pushed to tasks, the infrastructure for teaching and learning based on player interaction was reduced. There may remain those who really likes to teach and interact with new characters but are impeded by the reduced or missing infrastructure or do not wish to interrupt newbies trying to complete their task list.
There might also still be confusion on whether the city or the house should do the remaining teaching but that should already be sorted out by now. But if ambiguity remains, then it becomes harder to utilize these resources for the purpose they are intended for.
There is also the fact that now the self do tasks list are so long and therefore could take months to do, it could be harder to identify who the fresh newbies who really need help and guidance are.
By the time they have finished the tasks and select a house, the first impression of the game, if they are new players, are already set. I believe this to be an important factor that might have been overlooked.
As stated, it isn't just the newbie experience that is affected, the experience of those who wish to teach and interact are affected too. I personally would love to see us go back to how things were handled but I think it will be difficult.
But if we can, then perhaps a few things could be kept in mind to make things less draining for teachers.
- rotation in the HoN and novice aides positions
- be creative in interaction with newbies. See them as individuals and not nameless indistinguishable newbies then maybe your experience with each would be different too
Of course a true interest in interaction would be best. Some of us play more for the interaction, others for other things. A person may not mind doing the same hunt route for the 1000th time but would be too bored by the time they have to train the 10th newcomer.
I'm honestly appalled at the way the task system, and the house and city tasks, are laid out. It's an impersonal, cold, RP-less checklist of quests that came from some bizarre singleplayer RPG where the designers had an unhealthy obsession with paperwork. I haven't had a single task where anyone was remotely interested in using it as an RP opportunity. I've tentatively tried to reach out - "I'm getting ready to go research Great Rock," or "Don't suppose anyone knows any good books about Cyrene", and all I've gotten is a perfunctory answer, or nothing at all. I tried to bring up the house estate, as a part of my researches, and was bluntly told part of my job was finding the estate myself. I looked it up, and saw that was indeed the case. I don't know who created these tasks, but I wonder if they realize what kind of impression that gives.
@Linton I understand from what you've said that these changes were apparently made because people got tired of teaching newbies that never came back. Well, the task system and house/city advancement gives that exact impression - that training and interacting with newbies is bothersome, and that we should figure things out, and engage with the world, from a ground zero standpoint. The problem with this approach is that Picata has had to form in a vacuum. She was never given any basis for developing as a brand new character. There was no interaction with experienced people to help her acclimate, fit in, and mold herself to be a good Cyrenian. It's the ultimate of telling and not showing. It's bad worldbuilding, and bad RP.
Edit: I want to clarify this is not a problem with every Cyrenian, or every Achaean. I've met some absolutely wonderful people that are trying very hard to RP excellently, and interacting with them has been a joy. I'm talking about an issue with the overall city and house structure.
I have no idea how this can be changed or if it should be changed. I can understand people wanting stability and playing the game like a job(sounds strange I know). It is perhaps too risky for them to be creative with their characters and this can trickle down if they are the leadership. I do not know if this explains the dull experience you had in your house.
Perhaps Hashan would be a worth a try if Cyrene still don't work out. Last I checked, there are some discourse from different characters on their city news board. Seems like their leadership are not too adverse to characters having different ideas or views. Could potentially be a conducive place for interaction.
Arguably you can pin that down to RP-neutrality, bunch of recluses in the mountain yada yada, but I think it's much more reflected in the burnout of raising new people up, especially given Cyrene life is relatively slow because it mostly consists of Bill and Ted-ing around going "be excellent to each other and PARTY ON DUDES" on the day-to-day punctuated by interesting events.
The thing about this is that training and interacting with newbies is bothersome. I know that it sounds horrible to say, but it's the truth. I loathed having to drop everything I was doing at the time to run off and spend half an hour on the novice intro for a newbie who, statistically, is not going to stay. Bashing trip? Drop it. Questing? Drop it. Helping somebody with combat? Drop it, because you have to go roll out the welcome wagon.
This game is filled with fun things to do, which is why I play it. So when I play I want to do those things. If I have a couple of hours in the evening to play, I don't want to spend them repeating the novice introduction for the 1000th time. I want to spend them actually playing the game.
I do feel like a lot of your problems may well be specific to Cyrene, honestly. There is no real "good Cyrenian" mold that you can fit into. Here's what a good Cyrenian does:
- Under no circumstances do you ever bring PvP inside the city.
- Don't even think of doing anything that could get the city into a fight.
- Seriously, no conflict of any kind just to be on the safe side.
And that's basically it. Write, make art, craft things, harvest things, keep a shop, bash endlessly, mudsex in your house 20 hours a day, whatever. As long as you're not bringing conflict inside the city you're a good Cyrenian. It's a difficult role to play, imo, because it is about 100% self-driven. There's no cause, there's no organizational goals, there's nothing to base yourself off of. Mhaldorians fight for Evil and Targossans fight for Good, but Cyrenians just exist.I think the new player experience is better in Targossas/Mhaldor/Ashtan/Eleusis because all those factions have relatively clearcut causes and motivations and so there's a framework there to support new characters. Similarly, that also helps experienced players interact with the new ones, because the factional causes mean that your characters automatically have something in common with each other.
Sometimes, roleplay is as much in what someone does as in what someone emotes out - but I know that such isn't exactly helpful when you feel that Centre Crossing is too quiet and the tasks are devoid of feeling. That you've brought it up here is kind of a wake-up call, really, and I'll see about swinging by IG: Bron DOES owe you, after all.
Unfortunately, forums are completely OOC. So technically, nothing that's said and done here should have any super bearing on IC. With that being said, I think we should call some people out on the Outriders side of things:
got gud
In the meantime, when I was young, I joined all the arena games there were. Went to concerts (and would have gone to Finales that the Virtuosi host with amazing regularity.) Join people who ask if anyone wants to hunt. And, you can ask for arena games and ask for people to hunt or sail or explore with you. There's a great book in the Cyrenian Athenaeaum called something like "Creating a Life of Substance and Depth" by Beneficia Silverwind. It's an interesting and enlightening read.
Anyway, next time you are in, let's go explore and have some fun!
Think about it from someone who had never played any IRE game's perspective: You come into the realm and there are all these people standing around. Some are alone and others are in groups. But no one is saying anything. The House channel is silent. The City channel is silent. The required Clan channel is silent. The rooms they are standing in are silent. There are all these adventurers just staring off into space. Most aren't even posed in an interesting way.
If you encountered such a scene in real life, you'd be weirded out.
A true newbie won't understand that people are all speaking on another channel, and I don't think the majority of new players - newbie or not - will care. The playing atmosphere is, I'm sad to say, a disappointment. At first (and second and third) glance by a new player, it is far from the "multiplayer roleplaying game that explores a fantasy sword and sorcery world." I stayed not because the RP was immediately great, but because the few people who had interacted with me from the start made me think it could be.
Even now with the great family and House I'm a part of, I still get bored quite often because even though there are tons of people in the realm there are still far too many of them standing there wide-eyed and silent. Sure, you can poke them with sticks and tells, but should anyone need to do so?
When I first joined, I was quite overwhelmed by the laundry list of tasks I had to accomplish. Being in Mhaldor was isolating due to the small population and the cold in-game attitudes towards slaves. I was also a little disappointed by the supposed lack of rp between my house members in the beginning - they seemed to be more interested in the mechanics of combat than anything else. I almost felt like quitting and starting over a couple of times, but I'm glad I didn't. When I pushed my character to volunteer and take opportunities as they arose, and initiate curious conversations with Narga's superiors about Mhaldor's denizens and history, some of them picked up on my interest and have absolutely made Mhaldor -the- city for me.
I won't mention names at this point (I will probably end up raving about you people in the future haha), but you already know who you are and my BIG thanks goes to you all. Some of the interactions we've shared have been fun and magical, and makes me want to come back for more.
Now the laundry list of tasks don't seem much of a burden. Sure, I got frustrated when my house introduced another combat task, and Narga was told off for questioning its existence. But I told myself it was worth it for the potential future magical moments and just suffered through the 5 x death via combat outside the arena. I was aiming for Logosian at the time - trust me when I say monk bashing is pretty horrible. When I started on the task though, I received much encouragement/ support so I was grateful for that. Can't believe I'm saying this, but now combat doesn't even seem so bad anymore...?! XD
From my experience, you need to gauge your own goals in the game, and try to accommodate the tasks/ opportunities you get towards those somehow. Find the people you want to build relationships with, discern who might be interested in rp, and keep the interactions flowing by being proactive about it. For the veterans who may be jaded about newbies coming and going, I can understand your position, but do keep in mind this is a game and life can be... life. Just enjoy the moment, and as someone mentioned above, treat the newbies as if they are unique individuals and that will make them want to stay for as long as life allows them to. Also, if you desire change, make sure you become the change. I believe in positive cycles and all that jazz; if you create interesting experiences for newbies, then it is highly likely they will want to do something similar for others in the future. I say this because it's true for me.
I'm glad you took my comment on HT in stride and that it ended up being fun for you.
The thing I miss the most is the personal moments I get to make myself useful in the only thing I can even justify why I'm drinking the bosses water and still sleep at night is the mentorship help I help new people out with some genuine questions and the more RP in nature it was, the more I tended to shine and give these guys a taste of what I myself received in the beginning and was extremely happy with how hook line and sinker the experience was for me, and for many of you all as well.
I remember being a young Naga trying to work my way up and my mentor giving me various tasks to test my determination and capabilities. One of them was to retrieve an item from the Leviathan's lair.
It wasn't only the one-on-one interactions that made novicehood such an experience, but also how we were often encouraged to work with our peers. Sometimes to work together, other times to compete against each other. A few of us were once given the task to work together to kill the Leviathan when we were young. After throwing ourselves at it as a group a few times and failing miserably, we took the two strongest among us and send them in to get one hit at a time while we yanked them back out to safety before they died, until the beast was slain.
There was also, especially in Mhaldor, a more involved hands-on approach to teaching and challenging. In the Naga, it wouldn't be unusual for a high ranking member to gather up promising young individuals looking to prove themselves and take them out to find an enemy to demonstrate the wonders of Backstab as a group. There are few experiences in Achaea like a group of well-coordinated Serpents circling an unsuspecting victim before simultaneously leaping from the shadows and plunging dirks into the victim's stunned and unsuspecting back until they die, even if they thought they were safe in their own city.
I'm not sure what it is to be a novice these days. I can only offer a glimpse into what it was like for me way back when, and what I take notice of how the process seems to have changed today.
At the end of the day, it's up to the individuals to make that experience memorable and worthwhile beyond what they system provides as a rather bland, automated progression. It's the first impression that in many ways sets the tone and really grabs hold the attention and sense of wonder for a player, whether they be a true newbie or simply someone returning looking for a fresh new experience.
Hopefully it still persists in some places, and grows more prominent in the future.