Combat newb and class selection

Simaera

After years of being a total noncom in IRE games, I now have the desire to learn at least basics and be somewhat helpful. Given that I've never been a combatant, though, I don't know what I'm getting myself into with various classes in terms of learning curve and artefacts. Classes I'm considering are Apostate, Depthswalker, Infernal and Occultist. I've played each to level 50 so I've basic understanding of each (in theory).

From what I can tell, and I could be completely wrong, Occultist seems like it might be the easiest to learn (no reliance on venoms/limb breaks) while Infernal seems the opposite (because both). I'm not looking for an easy-button, one attack class, but I don't want to invest a lot of time into a character and realize I'm in over my head. Also, it's going to be a long time before artefacts become a possibility, so extreme reliance on them is a deal-breaker.

Thoughts? Advice? Thanks in advance.

Ryzeth

Occultist is probably the hardest to actually consistently be able to kill people with, out of those 4.

For someone new and learning, I would say Infernal > Apostate/Depthswalker > Occultist. Infernal has 4 different styles of fighting (dwc/dwb/snb/2h) you can try out if one doesn't suit you.

Ahmet

Difficulty of infernal, as well as what you'll end up relying on in a fight, is completely dependent on which specialisation you choose. It's basically four different playstyles and kill routes built into one 'class', and is probably your best bet for finding a style you like.

Occultist doesn't rely on venoms, but it's -very- heavily affliction-based.

As far as being in over your head goes, I don't think any class should give you trouble as long as you put in enough time and effort to learn it (except maybe Alchemist, cause fuck that noise). Some are definitely simpler than others, but they're all manageable. I'd suggest just choosing whichever you enjoy the most.

Ahmet

Your best bet is to find someone who plays the same class/spec as you and have them teach you some.

Finkle

I used to play a lot of Occultist so I can answer on that front.

When I was first learning it took quite a bit of effort to learn the unravel kill avenue.  
For simplicity's sake it basically goes:
(scrag)Bloodleech and Instill to get at least 3 afflictions
(cadmus)bubonis at 3 afflictions so when they focus mental affs they are turned into physical affs
You'll use Moon/(Nemesis)humbug to add mental afflictions next until 5 afflictions
At 5 afflictions you will use Hecate and then Whispering Madness
Hopefully into Enlighten into Unravel.

You can get a lot more complicated on that route and do a bunch of cool tricks, but that is the starter.  If you dive deeply into it I don't mind sharing advice on what worked for me and there are a ton of other great Occultists in Ashtan who will share if you go there.

If you're manually going about it you'll need to mentally keep track of the 6 afflictions you can go through with Instill/Leech for the first phase - Which I found the hardest to nail down when learning.   

This can be tricky because bloodleech will give a "random" affliction from his pool.   He won't afflict something they already have though which is useful.  Manually you're basically filling in the gaps of what he isn't giving to get to 3.  

The Glaaki kill avenue you can learn quickly since it's basically (Lycantha)Hounds/Enervate until the threshhold, cleanse their aura, get two truenames, and then fire them off.  -  You can get fancier but that is the basic outline.


You'll have a lot of people tell you that you need Aldar Talisman to unravel people, but you don't and I played for a long time with success without one.  If you learn to do it without one and then get one you'll feel like you are wearing rocket boots and it feels really, really good.   It makes life a ton easier and allows for some fancy tricks.

I love and adore the class, and wish I could be one in Targossas, but @farrah might burn me if I do.  If you get really proficient at it you can do a ton of really cool tricks along the different kill routes, the true-lock one I learned from @seragorn being the most fun.  And the thrill of seeing the shout before the death is cool.   The class will take some work to learn but I think it's so worth it and a total thrill to play.

Pros:
Ton of fun to play
Synergizes really well with a lot of classes
You do a ton of cool stuff in raids
Powerful 1v1 "slow-prep" and blisteringly fast aff kill path.
Tons of utility
A lot of cool roleplay in Ashtan for it

Cons:
Will take some effort to learn how to unravel someone
Karma upkeep not a ton of fun
Pact upkeep not a ton of fun
If you get really decent at pvp people do not want to fight against it

Hopefully that'll help you when thinking about them!

Farrah

The advantage of Depthswalker is that it isn't tied to a particular faction. It sounds like you haven't decided on a faction yet, since you're considering both Occultist and Apostate/Infernal. I would recommend finding an environment you like to play in before committing to a factional class.

Depthswalker seems fairly easy to learn on a basic level, but also has a lot of complexity to explore. I would recommend it, unless you'd prefer to play a prep class (which is vastly different than playing a momentum class).

Infernal would be a solid prep class, particularly dual blunt and dual cutting (blunt is stronger for infernal), but can also be a momentum class if you spec two-handed. Though, dual blunt isn't very complex so might not be interesting, depending on what you want.

Xanton

@Simaera Apostates don't benefit much offensively but just like any other class, defensive artifacts will help greatly and make the class even deadlier and more tankier! Definitely the cheapest of upkeep/artifact investment to do well PvE and PvP. I really do like the class and you don't need much of anything to compete with it. Adding in more intellect to do more damage and open up more kill avenues is neat but not always needed. The class has a lot of ways to kill and that's one of the reasons why I love the class so much. You can lock players and pick about 4-5 different ways you want to kill them, from splitting them in half with their sternum and impaling their corpse to the ground, to tearing out their heart with your daegger. Great class, low investment only gets better with defensive/int artifacts.

Infernal depends on the specialization you select. DwB is a lot of fun as Infernal and really only benefits from artifact flails to do some crazy damage, morningstars are pretty much just for faster prep and finishers.

DWC is the second best specialization of Infernal in my opinion as it meshes well with their instant kill(vivisection). Though, artifact investment is a big issue with the it since you're paying for two separate scimitars which can be quite costly. They really just speed up prep time, nothing too major and cuts down a few tenths of a second in your slashes that could help with sticking afflictions.

Two-hander was fun, but too slow in my opinion. I liked the flavour and the use of two different weapons.(You use both of them a lot like you do in DwB) don't need artifact sword but it would help with the damage which is pretty important for dropping someone below their sip thresholds to stack fractures(their main combat mechanic) they can raze shield/rebounding at the same time so can be fun.

I don't really like Sword and Shield for Infernal as it doesn't mesh with the vivisect kill, can use the SoA and an artifact weapon and adds some more tankiness but knights are already pretty tanky as is. I'd say go with another specialisation.

As for Depthswalkers, I don't know anything about them. Others can chime in there.

Farrah

Apostate and Depthswalker don't require artefacts at all. Apostate only really benefits from defensive ones and aldar talisman, but none are important enough to be "required." Depthswalker has several class specific arties you can get, but again, really not "required." Both classes are primarily affliction classes and have the same affliction speed artied and unartied.

Infernal would be much more benefitted by them. It's hard to say whether they are "required" for infernal because I think it would depend on your spec and opponent.  I don't think DWB requires arties, but 2h may for tankier, skilled opponents. You need to put out enough damage and quickly enough to kill them.

Puxi

I'm fairly new, but I think Infernal really benefits from being DWB or DWC due to the Vivisect kill path that synergizes well with other things you are pushing. @Exxia would be helpful on this front. I'm not saying you can't make 2h work as Infernal, but if you like 2h, it might make more sense to be Runewarden. As for artefact considerations, I would definitely go defensive artefacts to start since they will benefit you both in PvE and PvP. How many credits are you looking to start with?

Exxia

2h is great for infernal because of grave hands, which the hinderage is invaluable and something that runewarden 2h def would wish they had. You're not working towards vivisect with this spec so I'd tend to coordinate fractures and momentum based with gravehands and infestation affliction pressure. The artie thing though, like Farrah said, your best bet is going to be something not knight.

Occie is fun
Tons of good apos who aren't necessarily artied to the teeth and they do just fine

Simaera

Regarding Infernal, my current Infernal is using two-handed because its thematically appealing. This is the first time I've ever played a warrior-type character in an IRE game (I always go caster or rogue, here or in single-player RPGs). But I'm liking it from an RP perspective, so I'm gonna keep going with that. Thanks!

Simaera

What about artefact considerations? Ignore Occultist, if I change from Infernal it'll be either Apostate or Depthswalker. Obviously, being inexperienced with combat, I'm not expecting to be top-tier, but knowing if there's a significant disparity in investment would be nice.

Simaera

@Puxi I'm still not dead set on Infernal, but if I stick with it, I'd want to remain two-handed. Being a roleplayer/basher only for so long, thematics is still a big thing for me. Along the same lines, Runewarden isn't flavour I'm wanting at all. And as far as credits go, they're largely an eventuality. Which is to say I know how to make decent gold for house/city credits, but OOC purchases arent on the table right now.

All this is to say, I'm more than likely going to switch to my Apostate alt. Getting to the same point on her will be FAR less work than trying to make Simaera an Apostate, with no reincarnate/trait reset and losing 50% lessons. I like the RP of both classes a lot and I've been really enjoying Mhaldor. Lower artefact necessity on Apostate is a huge plus, but also I've read just about everything I can find on both classes combat strategies and Apostate seems more enjoyable, if more difficult.

Loads and loads of thanks to everyone for the invaluable advice. I'm far more informed and confident in class selection now.

Exxia

sad when a person asks a ton of questions and you help them out and then they suicide, all that help gone completely to waste. Then you wonder why no one wants to help you

Ankhareoutef

Exxia said:

sad when a person asks a ton of questions and you help them out and then they suicide, all that help gone completely to waste. Then you wonder why no one wants to help you

That's a super negative attitude to have. If you don't want to help, don't help. However, just because you gave someone all the help in the world doesn't mean they're having fun or feeling fulfilled with they're choice of city/house/class. It also doesn't mean their not grateful for your help. There's no reason to be nasty about it, which it what it feels like seeing as how if it wasn't directed to OP, it would have been in rants.

All your post has done is show other newer players who may be perusing such a thread for similar choice advice that you may be an asshole and steer them away.

eta: grammar

Invictus

It's also possible that he took that information and just rolled a new character. Definitely not the attitude to take. I've had many proteges go dormant or suicide and I treated every single one the same, it's not what you should take into consideration when helping someone out. Many different possibilities, from rolling a new character to just not enjoying the game. No fault in anyone.

Abellene

Ugh. First time I've ever outed myself as one of my alts intentionally but a) I want to address the most recent posts and b) if I'm going to do that, it makes more sense (to me, at least) to continue with relevant questions here rather than start another thread.

@Exxia - Yes, I suicided Simaera. I'm genuinely sorry if you feel your advice and time spent went to waste. It didn't, though. It helped me gain a more thorough understanding of combat in general and knight combat specifically - and realize that's not really my thing. Especially with the necessary artifact investment.

I'd have just quit class and eaten the lesson loss (detrimental as it would have been) but I'd already burned through reincarnate/trait reset and it was easier to reroll. Also, it was a somewhat drunk and impulsive decision. I've got a serious problem with impulsivity. It's embarassing to me, and a joke to people who know me, how I reroll constantly on impulse. Not just MUDs, TES is the same way. If I can get in a comfortable place with a character, it sticks, but getting there is the problem.

Which brings me to the 'now' thing.  I like where I'm going with Abellene. Insidium is a better fit than Dread Legates by leagues (nothing wrong with the Legates, but it's not my style). And I REALLY SUPER DO NOT WANT to put myself in a situation where impulsive suicide seems a tempting character choice again. Right now I'm a monk. IFL monk bashing, no lie. I decided against Apostate even though their combat looks to be my dream, because knight spoiled me and Apostate hunting is atrocious in comparison. Monk problems, though: One is that I'd prefer to learn combat as an affliction class rather than limb damage. Two is that monk looks like it requires too many artefacts (like knight) just to be viable in PvP. Again, I'm not aiming for top tier, just viable.

So, I'm feeling like my main options, in no order are:
1) Stay monk, bash enough credits to multiclass Apostate.
2) Eat the 50% lesson hit, switch to Serpent.
3) Eat the 50% lesson hit, switch to Apostate and deal with shit PvE.

I've got a free reincarnation/trait reset, so those are covered. I'm pretty much reliant on IC credits for the forseeable future and 'smacking someone with my wallet' will never be an option. I mentioned Serpent because it's RP I could align Abellene with, affliction based and (if I read correctly) not hugely artefact dependent to be viable. Help me, wizened ones, you've been delightfully helpful so far.

Keorin

I don't think monk is altogether that artifact dependent. Though I'm hardly anything approaching a good (or even mid-tier) combatant myself, I find myself much more limited by my health (I barely hunt)/race (-str race for rp reasons) then by offensive artifact set.  It does get a lot better with a diadem, admittedly, but quick-witted + a level one should open up about every scythe strategy (that I know of), and quick witted alone would be sufficient for most of them.

Either way, it's at least on par with serpent in that regard, probably better, since serpent really wants those artie dirks to achieve higher speeds. Neither will beat apostate/alchie/jester in that regard, but I think monk can be viable with no/low lesson investment more so then serpent.

That said, I think the most important part of learning combat is to find a class that you -want- to learn it with. I struggled a long time with classes that didn't match up with my tastes well, until I gave monk a try. If you aren't hot on prep classes in general or monk specifically, then class change/multiclass might be the best option regardless.

Abellene

Thanks, @Keorin. I'm gonna drink more, sleep, drink more and think about it. If I do anything, it'll be switch to Apostate. Limb damage route just doesn't seem to be my thing (and Infernal looked too linear). I would love to learn Apostate combat, I can deal with the squishy hunting and lesson loss if I do it. I'm level 65 right now so I can dump into Evileye for Deadeyes and bash up gold for credits for tri-trans. I dunno, we'll see.

Omor

For the record, I believe Monk is still considered one of the lowest tiers of bashers. Sub-level75 bashing is a poor indicator as to how bashing goes, if you're aiming for anything higher than just Logosan (80).

But, my recommendation is similar to Keorin's last paragraph. Find a class you like, then learn combat with it. Don't pick a class just for the combat.

Farrah

Where do you get that apostate is "squishy"? It's one of the tankiest classes in the game.

I'm not sure about bashing DPS, but I heard monk was awful for bashing.

Ahmet

Farrah said:

Where do you get that apostate is "squishy"? It's one of the tankiest classes in the game.

I'm not sure about bashing DPS, but I heard monk was awful for bashing.

Those bashing changes a while back brought it closer to in line with other classes, so it's much more tolerable, but it's still on the lower end iirc.

Exxia

okay...'

@Ankhareoutef all your post has shown is that you have nothing to offer in this thread except needless judgement. gfy

Abellene

I've not gotten anything in Achaea past 65 yet, so obviously that's all the experience I've got to work with. That being said, I can handle much stronger things in Monk than Apostate at the same level. Siroccian (sp?) dwarves and orcs, Shala'jen monks, both were comfortable a full 10 levels earlier on monk. A good deal of that is due to matters of attrition. Monk is doing roughly 50% more damage per attack compared to Apostate, on a slightly faster balance. Having played 2H/DWB, Monk, Apostate and Occultist all to 60isv, I'd put their speed in that order.

Omor

It's kinda hard to judge bashing until you've bashed pretty high, honestly. The experience curve is exponential, so the higher you get the more experience needed, and therefore the more bashing you do. Usually bashing is rated something like
Knight classes > most classes > Monk > Blademaster. Poor Blademasters.

Morthif

Artied occultist doesn't feel as glass cannony as I feared. Super Artied bard is the best. Speed and some tankiness. 

Calira

Occultist being a glass cannon is a complete myth. With simulacrum and orb, it is by far the most resilient class vs. every non-physical damage type, including untyped damage