Arties and Classes

Frederich

So.  This has probably been brought up before (probably even by me and I can't remember it) but... Why exactly are Monks and DWC/DWB on the really... really short end of the stick whenever it comes to artie weapons?  

I looked at the best scim I could find in Cyrene, then compared it to the best artie scim.

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/EvgM7f4K

20.75% more damage, 9.75% more accurate, and 5.15% quicker.

Those are healthy, healthy boosts, all things considered, for an artefact weapon.  However DWC still has to buy two of them to really get the benefit of one.

Then you go to monks... 35% extra punch damage (50% of our overall damage) for 1600cr..

Then 20% accuracy for an extra 1000cr....

Why exactly is are monks/runies not able to purchase these items in a bundle package for cheaper, but they can't be redeems unless they are redeemed together?  (Say, 1600cr for the package or even 2000.  You can redeem them at 33% of that value, rather than their full 3200/2600 value respectively).

Probably a question for @Makarios or something.

Ahmet

Makarios said:

Exxia said:

nothing, artefacts will never be equal across classes it's futile to even remotely ask for a slight balance to the absurd costs of a dual knight's playability.

The scythes are more a collar analogue than a weapon one (its mostly just a weapon for flavour purposes, the scythes don't actually do cutting damage etc). They won't boost attack speed and such like regular artefact weapons do, but the class does have some other artefacts which drive its overall artefact investment up.

That said, nothings completely off the table re: dual weapon knights. Rather than individual artefact costs, it more comes down to looking at the overall investment to kit out a class offensively for us. There's definitely some diversity there (we'll probably never be able to get monk down to a comparable investment level - there's just too many things that a monk can potentially stack on to their build). Depthswalker for instance is around 2900/3000 credits to get what I'd consider high end artefacted output. A lot of it does come down to playstyle though, so I'd not say we're antithetically opposed to artefact price adjustments, it just boils down to the overall artefact "weight" of the class rather than the individual item costs. Always happy to discuss our stance on that (though I might be a bit slow today due to Depthswalker post release adjustments).

Semi-relevant

Korben

Yes, monks have a ton of artefacts that are useful to them, which is both a blessing and a curse.

Nazihk

My biggest problem with DWC/DWB weapons is that both specializations have heavy limb damage components, and so it's very irritating to have weapons of different levels. It goes from a nice even "10 hits to break" to having to worry about counting how many times each limb has been hit by each individual weapon and how much is an L0 hit worth compared to an L2 hit and so forth.

It basically means that your DW artifacts are 700/1600/3200 instead of the regular progression, because you'll want to keep them even. 

Austere

Nazihk said:

My biggest problem with DWC/DWB weapons is that both specializations have heavy limb damage components, and so it's very irritating to have weapons of different levels. It goes from a nice even "10 hits to break" to having to worry about counting how many times each limb has been hit by each individual weapon and how much is an L0 hit worth compared to an L2 hit and so forth.

It basically means that your DW artifacts are 700/1600/3200 instead of the regular progression, because you'll want to keep them even. 

This so much.  I considered dwc, but realized I'd have to fork out for another level three or misses would screw me over. 

Cooper

Ugh, morphing weapon problems

Austere

Cooper said:

Ugh, morphing weapon problems

If only you could specify what level you wanted it to morph into. ..

Cooper

I've thought about suggesting being able to split it into two level 2 weapons instead of 1 level 3 weapon <_<

Melodie

First world problems.

Ahmet

Melodie said:

First world problems.

That's like... negative first world problems.

Austere

Cooper said:

I've thought about suggesting being able to split it into two level 2 weapons instead of 1 level 3 weapon <_<

Cooper for president

Zahan

It would be nice to see some love for the dual wielders.  The artefact weapon system is as old as any system in achaea - it deserves an overhaul.  

If you compare dual wield to single wield weapon classes, there is visual imbalance.  Let's take jester, priest, and bard.  They all require just 1 artefact weapon, and in the off slot they'll use a shield.  1 L3 + SOA = 2400 credits.  For a dual wield to get the same benefits of L3 weaponry, they need 2x L3s for 3200 credits.  That's mentioning nothing of 1350 credits to then get the absorption effect on their armor, which still puts them 11% resistance behind the guy who just spent 2150 credits less (or the fact that many of us paid only 500 credits for our SOAs).  

As Mak eluded to, I'm sure there are other considerations to be had, but this is just what it looks like from -our- end.  800 credits is a pretty substantial difference.  The suggestion of offering weapon sets could do well to close that gap.  They could even allow you to trade in 2 exact-same weapons and get the new weaponset plus the difference in credits so people didn't feel screwed.

Not even sure how to address monk so I won't go there.

I feel like, of all my time playing achaea, right now is the most likely chance we've had of getting real changes to this stuff.  It might just be a matter of fleshing out a good enough idea.

Frederich

Pretty sure Jester's don't want a blackjack for actual combat.  They'll want artie knives for that.  (Which is something else entirely).  Priest and Bard will be fine with a singular weapon.

Serpents, for hunting, want an SoA and an artie lash... but if they want to do combat, it's likely to be a level 3 dirk (possibly a level 3 whip, too).
Runies of most cases will want 2 artie weapons.  Less they're 2hander, in which case later on they'll need to buy an SoA for dragon hunting.
Magi/alchemists probably like collars.
Monk, if they wanna hunt good n proper, need knuckles, and if it's stuff that dodges (IE: Death knights), best be usin the bands.


It's just a lot of cases where, for a class, they have certain arties that are required for hunting.. but for actual combat, they need entirely different items.  It's weird, utterly weird.  Serpents will want SoA, Thoth's Fang, and an artie lash...

It's just silly, and awkward, and could really use a bit of an overhaul.

Blademasters
Bards
Alchemists (probably)
Depthswalker
Druid
Sylvan
Magi
Priest
Shaman (???)
Occultist (again ??????)
Apostate (???????)

Are all classes that are really just a 1 artefact weapon covers your PVP and your PVE.  (And in the cases where they only use one weapon.  The shield carries over to Dragonhood as well)

It's just weird.

Ryldagh

Frederich said:

Pretty sure Jester's don't want a blackjack for actual combat.  They'll want artie knives for that.  

Handaxes are faster.  Juggletossing those is just stupid fun.

Morthif

Occultist can get away with +3 int and collar but that just makes them a glass cannon. While every class benefits from bracelets and con some need it more then others. It's not as cut and dry as you think. But I'm all for cheaper weapon pairs for dwc and dwb. 

Xaden

If level 3 scimitars were 2400 credits I would 100% consider upgrading. At 3200 I'll stick with my level 2s.

Frederich

Morthif said:

Occultist can get away with +3 int and collar but that just makes them a glass cannon. While every class benefits from bracelets and con some need it more then others. It's not as cut and dry as you think. But I'm all for cheaper weapon pairs for dwc and dwb. 

"While every class benefits..."

@Morthif I'm talkin about weapons.  Not arties that are either luxury, well needed, or just flat out necessary for survival.  CON is pretty much a necessity for everyone, as it gives more health, endurance, and increases the breaking cap on limbs ( i think ).  So yeah.  #MoreConIsGood

Calyn

On one hand, you have dual wield knights which need to buy two weapons and strength arties.

On the other, you have Apostate, Jester, Shaman, and Alchemist, which can completely ignore offensive artifacts and still be scary, especially if they throw that entire warchest of credits into defensive arties.

Ankhareoutef

You don't need Artie weapons to be scary, though.

@Cailan can attest.

Calyn

Skill trumps wallet--up to a point. There's a point where a damage class simply can't keep up against defensive arties and momentum classes can't keep up the pressure against offensive arties.

Ankhareoutef

Edit:  Even "damage classess" can pull of neat tricks using just health inspector and doing your damage in ways that'll make it stick (like watching sips and moss and bursting only when they're low and off sip balance).

Cooper

Calyn said:

Skill trumps wallet--up to a point. There's a point where a damage class simply can't keep up against defensive arties and momentum classes can't keep up the pressure against offensive arties.

That's not true at all. I'm as artefacted as you can be defensively and any damage class can kill me 1v1 unartied.

Szanthax

Cooper said:

Calyn said:

Skill trumps wallet--up to a point. There's a point where a damage class simply can't keep up against defensive arties and momentum classes can't keep up the pressure against offensive arties.

That's not true at all. I'm as artefacted as you can be defensively and any damage class can kill me 1v1 unartied.

Is  that  because of  their skill or  your artefacts?

Me confused

Cailan

Haha thanks for the mention @Ankhareoutef but SnB can be pretty scary with forged weapons due to aff and damage output. Not sure how scims compare damage wise but having to fork out 3200 to be top tier seems inconsistent with other classes

Calira

I would absolutely not recommend getting artifact daggers OR handaxes for juggling purposes. They're barely faster at all when juggled, you'd need 3, and that opens you up to people picking them up and forcing you to rely on a stack of 50 forged handaxes anyways.

Khairt

obvious solution is for every jester to have 50 lvl 3 handaxes. ( I got you, @Sarapis)

Ryldagh

Or somehow get that returning skill that Sentinels have... for a mere 1,000 cr addon to each handaxe.

Lyrin

GTFO my returning.    Stinking jesters already steal my traps they're not having that too.