DWC help.

Vercio

So, I've been toying around with DWC knight. I've never been good at pvp in achaea, but I'm really trying to delve into it this time around so that I don't get burned out. Now, that being said. Where I'm from, no one really knows anything about DWC knights. So, I've come here for help!

Basically, was just going to ask if there were any DWC logs floating around. I saw one from Aerek, and I learned how to disembowel people off of that log.

Uhm. Currently I have L1 con belt, L2 bracelet, L1 sip ring, and 2 L2 scimitars... What other artefacts would be good for me to get as a DWC knight?
Also, Human Champion spec.

Sorry for random thoughts... 

Was also curious about DWC ability to lock people? Is it possible to lock people as DWC? I tried... maybe I'm just doing the afflictions incorrectly? 

I'd totally pay credits for a good DWC system too, or combat lessons as a DWC.

Nazihk

Part of it is going to depend on what knight variant you are. Runewarden? Paladin? Infernal?

Aerek

I've been busy splitting atoms for the past few weeks, but I check the forums once and it's 10 minutes after this post. Brings a tear to my eye.

• Disembowel scales heavily off strength. If you want to have much success, you're going to have to drop Human Champion for Man-at-Arms. Just a fact.
• Naturally, strength gauntlets are good artefacts for DWC, but if you're Runewarden, 19-20 STR is generally good enough; no need to overdo it when Lagua's buffing you. If Runewarden, the rough runestone (1/2 sketching balance) is also pretty baller.
• DWC can lock, but it generally requires draining mana via Pithakhan and you have to account for Tree and other active cures. It's doable, some people swear by it, but it's my personal opinion that no lock strat is as guaranteed as a good Disembowel one. 
• You're going to want a reliable limbcounter script, just a fact of life. SvoF has one built in, Antonius offers one, might be others. Understanding limb damage mechanics and being able to accurately track your hits is crucial.
• I don't have much in the way of recent logs, but if you see me logged in, prod me. Talking shop is just about all I do these days. You can also PM me here and I'll respond when I should be working instead.

Anedhel

I'm happy to give you a hand with some cheese damage setups if people aren't paying attention (3-limb-breaks+runes+nairat+stonewalls)!

Also, you'll want to strength-spec, as Aerek said. 

Nazihk

Aerek said:

I've been busy splitting atoms for the past few weeks, but I check the forums once and it's 10 minutes after this post. Brings a tear to my eye.

• Disembowel scales heavily off strength. If you want to have much success, you're going to have to drop Human Champion for Man-at-Arms. Just a fact.
  

Also my advice for this is to do this after you have hunted up to a level you are comfortable with. Hunting in this game is more con-based than str-based. Strength just lets you kill a bit faster, but constitution can open up entirely new bashing areas that will advance you faster than that little extra bit of damage.

Omor

@Mindshell was working through some DWC strats yesterday. Ask him, too.

ETA: @Invictus

Mindshell

I was?

All I got for now is cheese battleaxes.

Omor

I'm bad at listening then.

Atalkez

DwC is essentially a prep class that has a high volume of afflictions.

Through prep you want to be sticking afflictions as much as you can, pushing softlocks to keep them on the defensive. It's a lot like serpent, in that you have dual afflictions per attack, which means you can stack really well. Get your affliction game on point, and dwc can be really difficult to handle.

Depending which actual class you are, you either Dsb, Vivi, or Damnation. All of them can DSB, only Infernal gets Vivi, and Paladin gets Damnation.

Runewarden, you're primarily going to be based around either damage or the kill-shot torso dsb. Torso>leg>leg. You'll also want to use intimidate on the leg break for tumble extender. 

So depending on what you want to do you can use Pith for mana-burn to help the focuslocks, Hugalaz for damage going into your disembowl chains, or nairait which freezes your opponent. The freeze also proccs disrupt, so it can be a big hinderance if left uncured long enough (proccing right before you could stand, for instance).

Leviticus

The goal of DWC for Runie is a disembowel. I am also a noob in Achaean combat so here is what I do
Strat:

1. Stick illness: 
It is your parry bypass. You will need to stack prioritizing afflictions (Curare, Kalmia, Xentio,Darkshade). These afflictions will most likely be above illiness in your opponents cure order.

So Curare/Euphorbia, Curare/Xentio, Curare/Euphorbia, Curare/Darkshade, Curare/Kalmia will stick illness in most cases.  You can target a leg they are not parrying in order to stick illness and help prep that leg since you need it anyways. Remember to keep hitting with prioritized afflictions and factor in the tree tattoo.

*I dont know if I spelt the venom for illness correctly*

2. If not parrying legs then prep both legs elseif revert to step 1 

3. Set up One arm

4. Set up Torso (Some people parry torso as a big FUK YOU)

5. Break Torso
The opponet won't see it unless they diag or they are experienced enough to guess when you have broken it (or have a counter like Ernam's)

6. Break prepped arm 
This is to make them use their restoration to give more time for your double leg break
Venom: Epseth/Epteth to hold them in the room for step 7

7. Break unparried prepped leg with delphinium/delphinium 
This is to get them on the ground and they know have a lvl 2 leg and with step 6 they most likely don't have salve balance back. They also can't stand

8. Break other leg with epteth/epteth (the venom that shrivels arms)
This is to make them cry and secure your disembowel

9. Impale/ Fury On

10. Disembowel (should die if you have <19 Strength)

CONS: 
*Your opponent has the ability to run after your break their arm.
Use epseth/epteth when you break their arm in order to ensure they don't use shield

Also make sure to sketch the escape rooms with wunjo/nairat in order to ensure you can follow them if they run. Make sure of the isaz rune to keep them in the room.

*Your opponent has the ability to cure torso when you break it.
This does suck but maybe you can get them without a level 1 torso break if you do enough damage. Sketch some hugulaz or thurs(whatever) to add to step 6.

*Rebounding Sucks
It slows you down, I like to razeslash targeting nothing as to not mess with my counts. Unless I am 100 percent spot on with my counts (takes time and testing)
A good tip is to see how many dsl's you can do before rebounding pops up. (L3 Scim's is 3).

There are more CONS but that will get you started

Like I said I am a noob trying to learn Achaean Combat also. The best way is to master your offensive and defensive skills and then move on to analyzing other classes and how they secure their kills and then create strategies to prevent them. 

Leviticus

Also for step 3 and 4 make sure to interchange them because if an opponent sees you dsling their torso and then stop... they know whats coming.

Antonius

While generally good advice, I'd point out that you usually don't need the arm in that sequence, especially if you're using artefact scimitars. You can definitely do leg/leg/impale in time to secure a disembowel with level 3 scimitars. No prior warning to tumble or chance to run on the arm break. The arm also adds to your prep time. Depending on how they prioritise salve afflictions, you may find that doing arm with epseth/epteth doesn't even slow down their restoration to legs much at all if they do the mendings first rather than restoration.

If they apply to torso, there are a few ways you can handle that. Concuss (blackout) gives you a way to disguise what you're hitting and make their self limb counter fall behind (it will have recorded fewer hits than their torso has actually received), though there are things they can do in that situation to counter it. You can also abandon disembowel entirely and instead use the fact that you can guarantee them applying to torso for some other kind of set up (such as a riftlock).

If you can achieve - and then maintain - affliction momentum to stick asthma (and other afflictions) behind paralysis, rebounding becomes a non-issue. There's no reason not to use razeslash nowadays, as long as you're using a scimitar it's almost as fast as a regular raze and you're still dealing one venom (generally curare). Those who choose to fight dual cutting Knights while prioritising asthma over paralysis are choosing to never be able to parry, attack, touch tree or run away.

In addition to the advice to find out how many doubleslashes you can get in between rebounding - pretty sure it should be four, even if you're still off balance when rebounding comes up - learning how your attacks line up with their herb balance is a good idea. You'll be attacking a bit slower than herb balance, but doing two afflictions; they'll usually only get to eat one herb before your next doubleslash, but occasionally herb balance will line up so they get to eat twice in between your attacks. If you know when that's going to occur it's easier to know whether you're going to have everything stuck when you need it, or if they're going to sneak in a kelp/aurum eat before you try to secure a softlock with gecko/slike.

Leviticus

What he said!

Cooper

Nit picking, but you don't want to use darkshade when trying to stick euphorbia. That will cause them to eat ginseng more frequently than normal and you don't want that.

Antonius

I think that depends on how they handle darkshade, just like everything else, so I wouldn't blanket discount darkshade. It's a reasonable damage increase when combined with sensitivity and nausea plus doubleslash damage.

If darkshade is at the top of their priorities (or, at least, above paralysis), abuse it the same way you would them prioritising asthma. They don't parry or attack, they just cure darkshade.

If they occasionally switch when they've had darkshade for a while, there's a 50% chance (assuming only nausea and darkshade) of them curing nausea, but they're then 100% paralysed, so you get the parry bypass on the next doubleslash anyway. If they cure nausea on the first eat, they're still presumably wanting to cure darkshade (because that's why they switched up), so they're going to be paralysed for a minimum of two doubleslashes (two herb balances) - that should be enough time to get nausea back on them if you're paying attention to what they're actually eating.

If they never switch, they never switch (darkshade takes a crazy amount of time to kill without lightwall, after all). If they have darkshade immediately after paralysis, then sometimes they'll get that ginseng eat before my next doubleslash, but assuming I don't use darkshade super early in my progression and have other ginseng afflictions (vardrax) stuck as well, the odds are in my favour.

Leviticus

Cooper said:

Nit picking, but you don't want to use darkshade when trying to stick euphorbia. That will cause them to eat ginseng more frequently than normal and you don't want that.

Please nit pick. It helps find better solutions!

Aerek

I just use darkshade as a ginseng stacker against people that prio paralysis>illness>asthma to stop parry bypasses. Darkshade itself is usually lower on the totem pole, so you bury that first and then deliver euphorbia; for a 50/50 shot at keeping your euphorbia. Since they're -mostly- eating bloodroot anyway, you stand to stick illness for a good period of time or until they turtle up.

Vercio

Nazihk said:

Part of it is going to depend on what knight variant you are. Runewarden? Paladin? Infernal?

Runewarden.

Vercio

Wow, getting alot more feedback than I anticipated this is awesome.

So, it seems as a Runewarden my only option is pretty much Disembowel. Was really hoping I'd be able to lock people. But, thats fine. I can definitely work on getting Euphorbia to stick. It's great to know that this is a parry by-pass.

What I did for a disembowel last night (Granted this is on someone just standing there for me) Was break torso, break leg with double epseth, break other leg with double delphinium.... Would this be a correct way of doing it? 

When I raze... Do I just want to raze with curare?

Armali

Break leg with double delph first.

Anedhel

Generally, anyone paying attention will shield on any limb break that doesn't prone you, so avoid breaking an arm before the legs, and, like Armali said, prone on the first break, as well. Personally, I like to make sure the person's undeaf and then break the other leg with curare/prefarar, to get the sensitivity bonus on the damage from impale, which is usually enough to get me a kill (my DSB strength is 21, which is one shy of an instant kill. Depending on your strength plus the runeblade damage bonus to DSB with torso damage, you might not need to do this, though.) 

Exxia

Hi, this thread is awesome.
Just some tips:

Don't use pre envenoms use queueing but for disembowel I prep the torso/leg/leg
*no prep is going to be passed 18, +2 scims it's 15 (hits-to-break)

you want to use queueing not pre envenom, but this is a simple pre envenom for your disembowel execution; 
"envenom left with curare" , "envenom right with prefarar" , "envenom left with delphinium" , " envenom right with delphinium" , "envenom left with epteth" , "envenom right with epseth"
Then just T/L/L impale fury dsb >>I also have a button queue for dsb'ing on impale otherwise I spam the hell out of it
 ***FOR RUNEWARDEN:::it's EXTREMELY important for you to SKETCH THURISAZ 3x before going for your disembowel execution. This can give enough damage to kill with a fury level one torso dsb***

-PREDICT is your best friend I color highlighted every bit of mine, it's an balance cost of like 1.8s -tells you the "damage of the limb" <Also this is silent (meaning no one can see you do it)

A Magi is going to be very synergetic with you, retardation vibes is going to slow everything down for you, make an alias that uses the full duality syntax in example : DSL Exxia DELPHINIUM DELPHINIUM >>will prone your target, impale, and dsb accordingly

Svof's counter is decent enough but it's always a guestimate, once you get used to fighting you'll have a good idea where your opponent's count will be

In group you should be propping or sketching thurisaz, ground runes
*for damage pressure envenom your scimitars with curare/prefarar for sensitivity with fury otherwise go for kelp rotations (afflict afflictions that are cured by kelp/aurum)

USE LUNGE/ENGAGE

Edit: The shakes eventually go away

Cailan

edit: nvm

Patroklos

Exxia said:

Hi, this thread is awesome.
Just some tips:

Don't use pre envenoms use queueing but for disembowel I prep the torso/leg/leg
*no prep is going to be passed 18, +2 scims it's 15 (hits-to-break)

you want to use queueing not pre envenom, but this is a simple pre envenom for your disembowel execution; 
"envenom left with curare" , "envenom right with prefarar" , "envenom left with delphinium" , " envenom right with delphinium" , "envenom left with epteth" , "envenom right with epseth"
Then just T/L/L impale fury dsb >>I also have a button queue for dsb'ing on impale otherwise I spam the hell out of it
 ***FOR RUNEWARDEN:::it's EXTREMELY important for you to SKETCH THURISAZ 3x before going for your disembowel execution. This can give enough damage to kill with a fury level one torso dsb***

-PREDICT is your best friend I color highlighted every bit of mine, it's an balance cost of like 1.8s -tells you the "damage of the limb" <Also this is silent (meaning no one can see you do it)

A Magi is going to be very synergetic with you, retardation vibes is going to slow everything down for you, make an alias that uses the full duality syntax in example : DSL Exxia DELPHINIUM DELPHINIUM >>will prone your target, impale, and dsb accordingly

Svof's counter is decent enough but it's always a guestimate, once you get used to fighting you'll have a good idea where your opponent's count will be

In group you should be propping or sketching thurisaz, ground runes
*for damage pressure envenom your scimitars with curare/prefarar for sensitivity with fury otherwise go for kelp rotations (afflict afflictions that are cured by kelp/aurum)

USE LUNGE/ENGAGE

Edit: The shakes eventually go away

Not to nitpick, but can't you DSL <VENOM1> <VENOM2>? I know when I use dragon rend or throw axes, I can append the venom to the end and it'll be applied

Vercio

Patroklos said:

Exxia said:

Hi, this thread is awesome.
Just some tips:

Don't use pre envenoms use queueing but for disembowel I prep the torso/leg/leg
*no prep is going to be passed 18, +2 scims it's 15 (hits-to-break)

you want to use queueing not pre envenom, but this is a simple pre envenom for your disembowel execution; 
"envenom left with curare" , "envenom right with prefarar" , "envenom left with delphinium" , " envenom right with delphinium" , "envenom left with epteth" , "envenom right with epseth"
Then just T/L/L impale fury dsb >>I also have a button queue for dsb'ing on impale otherwise I spam the hell out of it
 ***FOR RUNEWARDEN:::it's EXTREMELY important for you to SKETCH THURISAZ 3x before going for your disembowel execution. This can give enough damage to kill with a fury level one torso dsb***

-PREDICT is your best friend I color highlighted every bit of mine, it's an balance cost of like 1.8s -tells you the "damage of the limb" <Also this is silent (meaning no one can see you do it)

A Magi is going to be very synergetic with you, retardation vibes is going to slow everything down for you, make an alias that uses the full duality syntax in example : DSL Exxia DELPHINIUM DELPHINIUM >>will prone your target, impale, and dsb accordingly

Svof's counter is decent enough but it's always a guestimate, once you get used to fighting you'll have a good idea where your opponent's count will be

In group you should be propping or sketching thurisaz, ground runes
*for damage pressure envenom your scimitars with curare/prefarar for sensitivity with fury otherwise go for kelp rotations (afflict afflictions that are cured by kelp/aurum)

USE LUNGE/ENGAGE

Edit: The shakes eventually go away

Not to nitpick, but can't you DSL <VENOM1> <VENOM2>? I know when I use dragon rend or throw axes, I can append the venom to the end and it'll be applied

Yes you can. DSL <LIMB> <VENOM1><VENOM2>