here's a thread to bring the discussion in the auto target thread to appropriate place. I've noticed that in achaea that prep is a much more acceptable and standard. alchemist here is referred to as a timebomb, but tempers can be cured and at a much faster rate without the presence of alchemist in the room.
a true timebomb cannot be cured out of by any means. by that definition, limb prep is the more timebomby of the two. now some say that is prep is fair because post breaks set ups are survivable but when it comes to dragon and magi, they seem very hard to survive.
the biggest issue I have is that dragon and magi and blademaster have powerful active cures that are very hard to block (as well as magi having a passive). to me, this doesn't seem like the best design philosophy as both classes already have incentive to leave the room as quickly as possible (without losing their prep) when faced against momentum and if their active cures require conditions that momentum can only achieve after the being in the same room for a while then those prep classes are almost never at risk (unless fighting alchemist).
i could be wrong since I'm still new so I would like to hear some differing opinions on this.
Blademaster is hard countered by robes and torso tracking/heuristics. There is literally nothing a Blademaster can do if you have tank arties and robes assuming you have moderately good play.
Magi is tough with scalded permitting double leg breaks. There's some class leads looking into it.
You might've had a larger case if you cited something like DWB, which has no reactive counterplay possible at the moment. But, there's classleads approved looking into that class too. I think Achaea's been doing a pretty good job in ensuring that prep setups are either survivable or require pre-momentum going in.
Even jesters. And fuck those guys.
basically, it doesn't make sense to me to put actives cures that can only be blocked by after gaining momentum on classes that can not only bypass momentum but already incentivized to do so.
For example, priest kill routes either involve mana drain, which active cures won't hit, or overwhelming them with a hellsight lock, where a ton of chaff affs will be coming in play that'll eat up actives. Occultists can burst you down extremely quickly, and rely more on quantity rather than quality, mitigating the effect of the actives (and rendering some useless, like fitness). Alchemists can ofc KO with every single lock aff in the book. Shamans have non-lock routes and semi-prep of their own, serpents pressure extremely quickly and have ginseng slowlocks and darkshade to fall back on (which creates large aff volume) in case their fast locks don't work. IDK about apostates.
Actives alone aren't generally an issue, unless they're an outlier that adds another affliction to the lock chain (shaman active in selarnia, magi active in BB, dheal with recklessness) - but with the recent change to weariness being non-focusable affliction, I'd say fitness is a much weaker active in comparison. This comes into play because the knight classes all only have fitness. BM is an outlier there with alleviate and phoenix, granted.
For instance: Most momentum classes that lock, have a way to softlock to burn actives on people that save them. Here, all passive cures also cure voyria first, so you can also negate the procc if you handle it properly (not that there is anything stopping someone from just sipping immunity right before the procc, unless they have anorexia) since the vast majority use their passive as a 'turn it on and forget'.
I think overall the balance is pretty good, there could certainly be some tweaks here and there, but that comes with time and balance considerations.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Passive healing can be a pain in the ass, but all classes have to deal with it (Rites of Healing, for example, are pretty much a nuisance for everything except Alchemist, 2h, and DWB, I think). Getting rid of passive healing would make it very difficult to handle many classes; defensive ability is usually traded off for a less impressive offence (dragon's a great example. You have excellent resists and a strong active heal in exchange for having very boring and predictable offence, most of the time).
Good fighters have found ways around that kind of obstacle. Learning to work around certain defensive aspects can actually be pretty rewarding, look for people who play a certain class well, learn from 'em! Most Achaeans are pretty good about sharing tips, as long as you ask politely.
You did select two classes, Dragon and Blademaster, that do have powerful actives, but that's not true of all of them. Jesterdoesn't have any outside Fool, Shaman has to sacrifice a binding for Daina, and Knight/Monk Fitness is countered by the same kelp stack most classes already use to stick asthma, so they're among the easier classes to lock these days. No doubt Shin Phoenix is strong, but necessitates near-full Shin, which in turn stops BM from using Shindo for much anything. Dragonheal is strong, but coincides with one of the weaker prep offenses. (I agree that Dragon is actually pretty difficult to survive for most targets, but past a certain health threshold or against anyone who refuses to fight in Breathstorm, they're pretty SOL)
- Prep classes generally have longer setup times than aff/momentum classes, and thus have to dodge at least one kill attempt before getting to attempt their own. This does justify putting some good defensive options in their corner, and it's not as though aff/momentum classes don't have similar actives. (Or better! Alchemist Salt can be chained with Temper/Wrack.)
- Aff/momentum classes often have better hindrance than prep classes, which exacerbates the long prep time above.
- Limb damage resets after 3 minutes after not being hit, and with good parry usage and hinder, this is absolutely a threat against some prep classes. If you know one of your limbs is edging toward that time, you can run from us and reset our prep just as easily as we can run from you to reset your momentum.
- Most prep classes use prone-based finishers that take some time to execute, and some even have mandatory pre-finisher steps (Impale) that must be present to use the finisher, so tumble and walls are strong obstacles against them.
What's unstoppable about DWB? Unless you're just referring to L3 flail/L3 gauntlet mangle locks, I've never had too much trouble with DWB. Just need a wall and a good tumble time.
For bard specifically it's an issue if you don't integrate limb breaks into your lock sequence, but for most other momentum classes, the design is such that you CANNOT reset easily by movement. A magi using bloodboil or a dargon using dargoncure isn't going to phase me as an alchemist anymore than usual, because I can keep them in room and I'll chase /aggressively/ if I can't. Same for priest or occultist or what not. The aff volume is also such that one or two affs here and there just aren't that significant.
@Aerek: I do refer to those. They work a lot better if you mix up your weapons, too.
I don't think that's necessarily a problem, though. The issue is how easily dual blunt then punishes the curing choice you have to make to reactively avoid Pulp (don't apply to legs, pre-apply to - or at least save salve balance for - head) through switching to flails. The damage can be absurd, and the bonus limb damage makes mangle locks a certainty. Losing that bonus limb damage might help a bit, but there's almost certainly going to be more balancing that needs to be done. I want to see what happens with torso assault before I really start brainstorming the best way to fix the issues though.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
Bard is actually, if considered a momentum class at all, hands down the best momentum class at securing a kill against fleeing types due to its amazing ability to fluidly break legs and prone while locking.