Classlead reports september 2016

Keorin

Atalkez said:

Right, but you have to take into consideration the opposite.

If the 2h can't get to you quickly, how do they ever kill someone that runs 10 rooms away and loops restore to cure all fractures - every 10s?

I agree with this, and I do think that they need a strong way of following. A falcon glance that provides a better alternative to farsee combined with torn tendons could give them a good way to do this. What I don't think they need is perfect, virtually unstoppable following combined with the torn tendon effect. 

In my classlead, my first suggestion was to give falcon glance a short internal cool down, so at the very least, a constantly moving target has a chance of being able to keep ahead (but probably still not use restore, even). I'm not going to claim that this would be a good fix, but it's more in line with what I think might work better, something to reduce their capability to hopefully make both running and chasing viable.

As for limb prep, I'm going to parrot @Kenway here in his assertion that most knights have little to no need to actually start utilizing it at all, let alone actually start working out how to use it optimally. A knight could easily prep both legs and execute some very long prone times paired with skull fractures, but this sort of strategy is neither necessary or utilized. 

The fundamental problem, in my mind, is that 2h seems like a class that's designed to completely remove defensive options, as their counters are almost always worse then what they were doing in the first place. You can't move parry because they can check it before every attack and give you skull fractures, if you fly they can tentacle/arc, if you shield they can carve, if you run they can perfectly track you and will likely catch up from the afflictions they give as a natural part of their prep. With most other momentum classes, their mechanics offer and even create room for counterplay, but two-handed simply removes those options, creating a class that's both nearly impossible to stay in the room with and nearly impossible to run from.

Aegoth

Toning down 2h damage will probably alleviate some (not necessarily all) qualms about fighting 2h. Right now it's the immense health pressure coupled with the inevitability of high tendon counts that's frustrating people. Still, there needs to be a happy medium. Can't expect 2h to just wail away for 10min and only get 3 fractures

Farrah

Since quote boxes are owning me, I give up.

Achimrst

Puxi said:

I'm not going to pretend I know much about combat at this point, but from my limited knowledge and experience, Puppetry (fashioning) is an extremely bland mechanic. Do others feel the same way or am I just doing it wrong?

It's actually a very strong ability that I personally enjoy. Most Shaman now don't use it and I am not sure about jesters at all since I rarely see any. It's about as bland as you make it I suppose but it does take a looooong time to get enough fashions to do anything worth while plus the balance times, to me, make it a bit less desireable to use as a Shaman but that's a gross overgeneralization.

Amranu

Fashioning is fine, use it all the time.

Aegoth

Amranu said:

Fashioning is fine, use it all the time.

Sarcasm.... overwhelming... /williamshatnerposes

Puxi

Achimrst said:

Puxi said:

I'm not going to pretend I know much about combat at this point, but from my limited knowledge and experience, Puppetry (fashioning) is an extremely bland mechanic. Do others feel the same way or am I just doing it wrong?

It's actually a very strong ability that I personally enjoy. Most Shaman now don't use it and I am not sure about jesters at all since I rarely see any. It's about as bland as you make it I suppose but it does take a looooong time to get enough fashions to do anything worth while plus the balance times, to me, make it a bit less desireable to use as a Shaman but that's a gross overgeneralization.

Kind of my point here, you spam an ability over and over until you get enough fashions to actually combo it into something. I don't have the right answer to make it better because I think passive stacking of fashions wouldn't be very fair either. Was mostly just giving my two cents on the Puppetry from my limited experience.

Achimrst

I have a response to the decision on classlead list #41 though, @Makarios I was wondering why you feel Shaman need to diversify bindings but literally locking bindings behind a mechanic that cannot be changed easily and makes you vulnerable for over 10 seconds, you can't change it easily in a rampage or koth? I mean, we aren't using something as powerful as radiance here just buffing ourselves for combat.

Achimrst

Puxi said:

Achimrst said:

Puxi said:

I'm not going to pretend I know much about combat at this point, but from my limited knowledge and experience, Puppetry (fashioning) is an extremely bland mechanic. Do others feel the same way or am I just doing it wrong?

It's actually a very strong ability that I personally enjoy. Most Shaman now don't use it and I am not sure about jesters at all since I rarely see any. It's about as bland as you make it I suppose but it does take a looooong time to get enough fashions to do anything worth while plus the balance times, to me, make it a bit less desireable to use as a Shaman but that's a gross overgeneralization.

Kind of my point here, you spam an ability over and over until you get enough fashions to actually combo it into something. I don't have the right answer to make it better because I think passive stacking of fashions wouldn't be very fair either. Was mostly just giving my two cents on the Puppetry from my limited experience.

Jesters do I know that, I can understand if Jesters find it bland but Shaman use Soulrend.

Achimrst

Amranu said:

Fashioning is fine, use it all the time.

That's why I said it was a gross generalization, thanks for the trolololz though and he is mostly talking about Jesters I believe.

Jinsun

Too much @Achimrst on one page. Too Fabulous. Shut down this thread.

Anedhel

21:48:39.622 Report #11

21:48:39.622 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

21:48:39.622 Submitted by: Anonymous Status : Approved Priority : -1

21:48:39.622 Skill : Weaponmastery Ability : Brain

21:48:39.622 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

21:48:39.622 Problem:

21:48:39.622 Brain is blocked by Shield of Absorption effect

21:48:39.622 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

21:48:39.622 Solution #1:

21:48:39.622 Change brain to function like BBT and Bite, and no longer be blocked by SoA on prone opponents, to bring it in line with other finishers. Not being able to do it while a target is impaled would make sense.

21:48:39.622 Solution #2:

21:48:39.622 Solution #3:

21:48:39.622 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

21:48:39.622 Decision:

21:48:39.622 This is a no brainer, was an oversight on my part.

21:48:39.622 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hah. Cuz it smashes your head in, get it? (Yay puns!)

Cynlael

I think if Jester had an ability like soulrend (the ability to afflict/get a handful of fashions in the same balance), it would be an even dumber class than it already is.

Thankfully Makarios hasn't lost all of his marbles, and likely won't do that.

Anedhel

Keorin said:

Atalkez said:

Right, but you have to take into consideration the opposite.

If the 2h can't get to you quickly, how do they ever kill someone that runs 10 rooms away and loops restore to cure all fractures - every 10s?

<reasonable stuff>

I will say this about 2h: You're not wrong that it hurts a ton when artefacted, and that's definitely kind of a problem. 

However, having played 2h for a while now, I can pretty safely say that 4/5 people don't really play any defence against them. 2h is strong, and the pressure is nuts, but there are also a few ways to deal with it. To whit: not many people really use clumsiness + weariness, even though their classes have access to it. Similarly, a lot of people underutilise lethargy (no idea why, lethargy's crazy strong). The list of things people could do, but don't, is pretty long.

I'm always happy to have a chat with anyone who wants some pointers on defence, though (though I do disclaim that what works against me might not work against someone else!), on forums or in-game.

(That said, if you're like, level 80 and fighting someone with a level 3 bastard sword and decent strength, I don't think anything can actually save you, but that's just the way the world is, sadly)

Keorin

2h damage is where the problems stem from, and I personally think that changing it's damage to a higher percentage and a lower flat component would be a very good step to reducing the binarism it encounters with different people's health, I have little hope that the damage will seriously change. 

What I'm more concerned about is just the lack of defensive options I feel that 2h presents. Different classes have their own things that often go underutilized, I know I'm certainly not playing monk to it's full potential, as @Farrah pointed out (Thank you!), but I don't think that negates the fact that 2h punishes defensive options to the point they're unusable. 

Running, in my mind, is simply one of the most important tools that 2h can largely rule out. It's very important for giving lower health targets a fighting chance, and against any other momentum class, it's a tool that is often necessary if a prep class is going to survive to prep the target. I simply don't understand why 2h knight, which is potent on many counts and even has access to limb prep, requires the ability to almost negate running. 

And as a last question, why the heck did WALK TO get deleted if this is a necessary feature of the class? It's not as if it's some minor capability, it can make a huge difference, and it means that all the previous change did was place a heavier coding burden on the class. 

Anedhel

From what I can remember off the top of my head, momentum classes all have things to keep you from leaving! 

Alchemist: Homunculus block
Apostate: Gravehands
Occultist: Tentacles
Priest: Piety
Serpent: Pinshot
Sylvan: Wildgrowth

Most mixed (aff pressure + limb prep) also have movement blockers. I understand why tendons can be frustrating, but it was toned down to no longer reflect the amount of tendons, making it easier to get away when you're in trouble, from what I've observed! (That also happens to be the shortlist of classes that are a pain in the ass to fight against, for most people, no?)

That said, if the tendons effect was replaced for something else that benefited the knight, I wouldn't be opposed to using isaz + stonewalls, piety/gravehands + icewalls to limit movement, though! 

Calira

Anedhel said:

Most mixed (aff pressure + limb prep) also have movement blockers.

Poor Bard + Shaman

To be fair, 2-handers have way better movement punish tools than any other class. Isaz/Piety/Ghands to hinder the initial escape, torntendons to hinder prolonged escape (and flight!) and Engage to punish you for trying. This is compounded by the potency of Carve, the lack of parrying and access to limb damage.

Anedhel

My point was more that, instead of relying on running, a lot of classes have access to defensive stuff they underuse versus 2h. 

Like I said, I'm cool with tendons being changed in favour of something else, and relying on walls/movement blockers (although flying is still a nuisance)!

Ryzeth

I feel like DWB is worse to fight when it comes to damage than 2h, personally. Granted dwb is probably even easier to hinder.

I think outside of clumsiness rng screwing you over, hindering them isn't too difficult. And most momentum classes get to their kill window faster than 2hander does.

Para spam on top of rebounding timings (which you should pay attention to), as well as clumsiness/weariness (and lethargy if your class has on-demand/easy access to it).

Antonius

Daeir said:

I feel like movement blocking abilities in general would be 200x less annoying yet still powerful if they were reworked to introduce movement channel instead of a flat RNG chance to fail.

Until you consider that almost every class with a movement blocking ability has easy and frequent access to paralysis, in which case it becomes literally impossible to leave the room unless they, for whatever reason, stop using it. That small window you have where you're not paralysed to try to move out of the room becomes a small window in which you can start the delayed movement, but by the time that delay ends you will be paralysed again and movement will fail.

Kenway

Suggested reduced 2h damage in the past two leads. Seems to be a no go. Carve really isn't the issue, it's not that hard to just not keep up rebounding and as for shield, a lot of classes can punish shielding like BM and SnB get a free parry bypass/impale/concuss off of it. The base damage really should be a bit lower and I like @Keorin's idea about making it more percentage based. I'm still very strongly of the opinion that 2h should have a static damage(or percent) value per attack regardless of artefacts. The added speed, limb damage and accuracy(especially in the case of warhammers) are still huge boons and imo just as worth it. The way it currently scales, you're getting dps bonuses from both damage and speed stats when even forged weapons are a nightmare when used well. I fight pretty much exclusively in 2h and I've got an artie hammer and sword for those of you unaware so I'm not crying nerf blindly here. 

Anedhel

You'd be cool with your $472 weapon doing the same amount of damage a forged one does? I gotta be honest, I wouldn't. 

ETA: 2h damage can be looked at, I guess, but I still think a lot of people underutilize defensive measures against 2h and would fare better if they took advantage of them. 

Aegoth

After fighting Savira as 2h, i gotta say that the idea that there are "defensive measures" against a 2h is pretty absurd. By far one of the hardest fights i've fought against a knight

Kenway

Anedhel said:

You'd be cool with your $472 weapon doing the same amount of damage a forged one does? I gotta be honest, I wouldn't. 

ETA: 2h damage can be looked at, I guess, but I still think a lot of people underutilize defensive measures against 2h and would fare better if they took advantage of them. 

 Its faster. Damage per second. Math. It'd still do more damage. Outside of spamming reflections and well timed evades there's not much that can actually really hurt 2h when played well. Precision focus outpaces curing by default, the added speed is more than enough of a power boost both in stacking speed and damage per second.

Mindshell

Still reading through the reports haphazardly. Just came across classlead 118 (which got rejected) where it seems a dual blunt player is struggling with bard trueparry left.

Bard trueparry shouldn't be anymore difficult to deal with than any other class IF you use DOUBLEWHIRL TORSO EXPEND LEFT ARM EXPEND. The paralysis from torso expend lets you bypass parry for the second hit and it only costs 2 momentum (you have to hit once anyway before you could do a simple left arm expend)

Putting this out there for some general exposure to hopefully help the dual blunt player base.

Antonius

Mindshell said:

Still reading through the reports haphazardly. Just came across classlead 118 (which got rejected) where it seems a dual blunt player is struggling with bard trueparry left.

Bard trueparry shouldn't be anymore difficult to deal with than any other class IF you use DOUBLEWHIRL TORSO EXPEND LEFT ARM EXPEND. The paralysis from torso expend lets you bypass parry for the second hit and it only costs 2 momentum (you have to hit once anyway before you could do a simple left arm expend)

Putting this out there for some general exposure to hopefully help the dual blunt player base.

Except you can't expend on two limbs in one doublewhirl (unless that's been changed and I missed the Announce post), so you'd have to do torso expend/left leg for every hit. That's generally better than doing right leg expend/left leg, though, since you don't have to factor in the increased limb damage from prone (though sounds like we might be losing that soon, anyway) and it requires less momentum.

Though in terms of efficiency, you might just be better off prepping the right leg, breaking with expend to prone, then hitting left arm expend on the next doublewhirl while they're prone, then prepping left leg after they stand up.

Mindshell

Antonius said:

Mindshell said:

Still reading through the reports haphazardly. Just came across classlead 118 (which got rejected) where it seems a dual blunt player is struggling with bard trueparry left.

Bard trueparry shouldn't be anymore difficult to deal with than any other class IF you use DOUBLEWHIRL TORSO EXPEND LEFT ARM EXPEND. The paralysis from torso expend lets you bypass parry for the second hit and it only costs 2 momentum (you have to hit once anyway before you could do a simple left arm expend)

Putting this out there for some general exposure to hopefully help the dual blunt player base.

Except you can't expend on two limbs in one doublewhirl (unless that's been changed and I missed the Announce post), so you'd have to do torso expend/left leg for every hit. That's generally better than doing right leg expend/left leg, though, since you don't have to factor in the increased limb damage from prone (though sounds like we might be losing that soon, anyway) and it requires less momentum.

No, you can. I didn't just make it up.

Dunn

Pretty sure you can double expend on separate limbs...

Antonius

You couldn't when dual blunt was first released (by design), despite the syntax looking like you should be able to in the AB file. It caused a lot of people some confusion because they thought it should be possible, but then it didn't work, and I recall discussing it with Makarios at the time. I wasn't aware it was now possible, so I either missed the Announce post saying it had been changed or there wasn't one. That does make trueparry pretty easy to deal with.

Aerek

Antonius said:

Except you can't expend on two limbs in one doublewhirl (unless that's been changed and I missed the Announce post), so you'd have to do torso expend/left leg for every hit. That's generally better than doing right leg expend/left leg, though, since you don't have to factor in the increased limb damage from prone (though sounds like we might be losing that soon, anyway) and it requires less momentum.

You definitely can. I've been doing that to bypass trueparry for a very long time now. It's also handy to expend torso/leg when you're going for a mangle lock strategy, to prone and reset rebounding at the same time so it doesn't foul you.

You could also Expend leg/left arm to nix Trueparry without actually breaking that leg, but that costs 4 momentum instead of torso/arm's 2.