Bleeding

Armali

Some bleed research I did that I thought might be useful, provoked mostly by, 'do robes hard counter BM'. Thanks to @Tydas and @Calira.



BLEED AMOUNTS
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Impale - 39
Impale tick - 54

Impaleslash - 48

Twist - 275
Twist (damaged) - 375
Twist (mangled) - 480

Brokenstar threshold is 700 bleed.

(the thing I'm not sure about is whether or not impale bleed scales based off of strength. @Tydas, my tester, had 13 str, so you can take that as an average or as a floor and assume more for the average)



COMMON EXECUTION SCENARIOS
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NO PRE-IMPALESLASH, TWO TWISTS (ex. straight two leg execution)
Two impale ticks, impaleslash, twist x 2 = 706 bleed (+39 bleed if you get a second impale, +314 if you get one more twist, but they'll also let them stand and possibly escape)

NO PRE-IMPALESLASH, TWO TWISTS + IMPALE (ex. arm + leg execution, target applies to arms)
impaleslash, two impale ticks, twist x 2, impale = 745 bleed (+275 if you get one more twist, but they'll be able to stand)

PRE-IMPALESLASH, FOUR TWISTS (ex. pre-impaleslash into two leg execution)
Impaleslash, impale, two impale ticks, twist x 4 = 1295 bleed (+39 bleed if you get a second impale, +314 if you get one more twist, but they'll also let them stand and possibly escape)

NO PRE-IMPALESLASH, TWO TWISTS + IMPALE, DAMAGED TORSO (ex. head + torso + leg execution, target applies to head)
impaleslash, two impale ticks, twist x 2, impale = 945 bleed (+375 if you get one more twist, but they'll be able to stand)

PRE-IMPALESLASH, FOUR TWISTS, DAMAGED TORSO (ex. pre-break torso, pre-impaleslash into two leg execution)
Impaleslash, impale, two impale ticks, twist x 4 = 1695 bleed (+39 bleed if you get a second impale, +314 if you get one more twist, but they'll also let them stand and possibly escape)



CLOTTING
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Clot cost with impaleslash was base + 1/30th max mana, where base was 80 before trans Survival and 60 for.  On your average opponent, clotting costs average out to ~4.4% max mana (the scaling component is always 3.33%, and the static component can be from 1.5% [4k mana, an unartied scrub in con spec at 85] to 0.6% [10k mana, Jhui in dragon], realistically), which is 22 clots and change, or 440 bleed. This number can increase by 20 - 80% depending on sip priorities, and can go up by another 50% if they have robes.



OTHER OBSERVATIONS
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I have a nagging feeling something's not right here, since the bleed numbers don't seem to quite correspond with what I've seen in the field (I've only had a pre-impaleslash two leg break into 4 twists fail once, and the second time I tried it out on the same opponent it didn't). If anyone else has input, please, share!

Cooper

Mana regen ring, robes, moss tattoo, and mana sip ring would probably make someone immune to blademasters, but robes alone doesn't. 

The problem is getting the pre-impaleslash and having the opponent stay in the room and not be shielded/have rebounding up to break.

Atalkez

After an impale, you 100% get balance to do another action. Just need to be using queueing and not have lethergy. 

What is your concern here? That bleeding isn't calculating right? 

400-600 clotting possibility is accurate. Seragorn/Jhui types are the only ones I've had survive a pre-imp 4 twist setup without auxiliary mana healing abilities. 

Armali

Just seems like anyone with robes should be able to survive most BM prep set ups, based on the numbers I've gathered. Wondering if I'm missing something significant that's helping land kills! (the four twist gives 1300 bleed for example, + 20-30 if you impale after the twists, but even a 4k mana person could clot 600 bleed with robes without sipping, and likely get 200-300 more if you do count sip)

Atalkez

Robes will allow you to survive basically every setup.

Vs robes opponents I use torso break. If they're smart and track torso properly, it's an effort in futility without prepping every limb to bury the torso break, which is also easily defended against.

Impaleslash is supposed to make clotting less effective. How much so and all that I have no idea.

I complained about this a while back too after testing with Jhui. 

Armali

Well, for me this was less a complaining thread and more a, 'I killed @Zulah with a bstar set up (once) but I thought his super robes would make him invincible to it so what's up with that?' kind of thread. Trying to pick brains to see if I missed something.

Zulah

Armali said:

Well, for me this was less a complaining thread and more a, 'I killed @Zulah with a bstar set up (once) but I thought his super robes would make him invincible to it so what's up with that?' kind of thread. Trying to pick brains to see if I missed something.

I also want moving or hindering since that was more of a testing session. 

Atalkez

Does Zulah have max Int for his build (+3)? Max sip? Was he mana prio going in?

Vs Jhui/Seragorn (high end of the spectrum on arties, and resists for Sera with that simula-mana thing) a pre-impaleslash 4 twist combo always put them about 500 bleeding and 0 mana, but not enough to kill.

A pre-impaleslash, 4 twist combo with broken torso was a kill, but super close to the line. A worry stone procc could negate it, or (as monk/occie) active mana regeneration. Generally, pre-impaleslash isn't very good to rely on because of the window to run (hamstring increase to 9s last classlead was designed to fix this small hole, and has seemed to help a lot), but it lasts long enough to still make use of it, assuming you can keep up with them running.

If they don't let you work the pre-imp into it, you have to go with a torso>leg setup. When you do this, smart curing of torso erases the kill attempt, as imp > slash > twist > twist isn't enough, even if you impale again and twist again (they'll 100% stand/leave before you're on balance from this). 

You can do a hidden torso break into legslash, but if they cure the torso you're screwed. You can try head/arm breaks to push salve balance, but ignoring those and applying to legs/torso negates that setup too.

Overall, BM does just fine against everything but the top top end of the spectrum. Generally, at those heights, the limb prep is high enough coupled with what I outlined above, to make the kill extremely hard to secure. 

Edit: I've also never seen bleeding scale on strength or intelligence of the BM from my testing. Balance times on slash/twist also don't get augmented by bands.

Zulah

I was low int troll heath prio not parry swappingnot rebounding not moving with 0 mana. Not an example id use

Atalkez

Parry/Reb not an issue, since generally the execution those things aren't a problem.

More the Int/Sip/Prio because of mana efficiency versus the setup.

Zulah

Atalkez said:

Parry/Reb not an issue, since generally the execution those things aren't a problem.

More the Int/Sip/Prio because of mana efficiency versus the setup

Just emphisizing the ease of impaleslash prep into leg break. Took 2 seperate full impale/bladetwist combos after the impaleslash before double break prep to pull that. If I hindered or even just turned on mana prio it wouldnt have happened without a lot more effort.

I know ive put impaleslash followed by 5-6 bladetwists into full int spec magi with robes and not even seen >300 bleed. I had to do a double check after because i thought i was off on something.