What is the best colour for Dragonform bashing in any given scenario?

Szanthax

That's why I get confused.... If I'm supposed to be Dragon stabbing things to death...

Sena

Based on the few numbers I've seen, gut is probably significantly better DPS than Thoth's Fang (at least with str arties; they should be closer at base dragon strength). It looks close enough though (gut shouldn't be more than 25% higher DPS; specifically, gut DPS should be between roughly 98% and 125% of Thoth's) that the faster balance on Thoth's Fang might be enough to come out ahead despite the lower DPS (and that's almost certainly the case when hunting weak denizens).

Artied gut is definitely better than unartied incantation.

Szanthax

Sena said:

Based on the few numbers I've seen, gut is probably significantly better DPS than Thoth's Fang (at least with str arties; they should be closer at base dragon strength). It looks close enough though (gut shouldn't be more than 25% higher DPS; specifically, gut DPS should be between roughly 98% and 125% of Thoth's) that the faster balance on Thoth's Fang might be enough to come out ahead despite the lower DPS (and that's almost certainly the case when hunting weak denizens).

Artied gut is definitely better than unartied incantation.

Thanks for not making me like a scrub for the last 490 years

Tahquil

Incantation is good for mobs that break your limbs a lot. You can incant with a broken arm, but you cant gut. I think?

Cooper

Sena said:

Based on the few numbers I've seen, gut is probably significantly better DPS than Thoth's Fang (at least with str arties; they should be closer at base dragon strength). It looks close enough though (gut shouldn't be more than 25% higher DPS; specifically, gut DPS should be between roughly 98% and 125% of Thoth's) that the faster balance on Thoth's Fang might be enough to come out ahead despite the lower DPS (and that's almost certainly the case when hunting weak denizens).

Artied gut is definitely better than unartied incantation.

I don't think the gut vs thoth's thing is right.

I'm at 20str, just did several tests against the same mob.

Gut was an average of 13.7% damage per attack @ 3s, or 4.57% per second.

Tfang was an average of 9.6% at about 1.85s, or 5.19% per second.

This was done by testing on a mingruk slave until it was at such low health that the next hit would kill it, and assumed a critical hit was straight 2x damage. Without the test server up I can't get the exact speed of Thoth's, but I was pretty consistently hitting about 1.85s, with a couple at 1.80 and a couple at 1.90.

Armali

Couldn't you go and attack a rat and put mob health on prompt to get the most accurate relative numbers?

Sarathai

Tahquil said:

Incantation is good for mobs that break your limbs a lot. You can incant with a broken arm, but you cant gut. I think?

Yes. UW scorpions and such.

Cooper, I'll do some more tests against a Mingruk (just the standard Mingruk slave, right?) when I next log in with and without arties on (I have L3 gauntlets). I actually did go and do some buckawn testing myself, and came out at Tfang doing 12% per 1.8-1.9 and Gut doing 21% per 3s. (At 22 STR for those.)

Sena

The diminishing returns on strength bonus for gut start from a base of 18 while Thoth's starts at 12. So gut could have lower DPS than Thoth's at 20 str and higher at 22 because gut benefits from the extra strength more. And gut having slightly lower DPS than Thoth's is still possible with Sarathai's numbers, which is why I only said that gut is probably higher. I really miss being able to see actual damage numbers.

Assuming jab balance is 7-Speed/50 (I haven't found any problems with that formula for standard weapon attacks so far, and can't think of any reason dragon would have any modifiers to it), Thoth's should be 1.9s with 255 speed, so I used that.

Cooper

Okay, buckawn swordsman this time, assuming 1.9s for Thoth's and 3.0s for Gut (test server says 3.0s for gut, haven't been able to login to see what it says about Tfang):

Thoth's, 20str - 12.25% per attack, 6.45%/second
Gut, 20 str- 19.25% per attack, 6.42%/second

Thoth's, 22str - 13.5% per attack, 7.11%/second
Gut, 22str - 21.25% per attack, 7.08%/second

Re: rats - they get one shotted. Buckawns are the least powerful thing I've been able to find in decent enough numbers to test on.

Regarding the speed of Thoth's, I did about 100 test jabs between Jarrod and Aegoth, and my balance time according to svof was below 1.9s about 90% of the time, I didn't calculate an average cause that would suck, but the average looked much closer to 1.85s than 1.9s, and might even be a bit under 1.85s.

Assuming 1.85s on Thoth's, that changes the numbers to:

20str - 6.62%/second
22str - 7.30%/second

No matter what I've tested on or at what strength, Thoth's has always come out ahead, even assuming 1.9s balance time.

Also note that 22str in Dragon would be level 3 gauntlets + jera (I used level 2 gauntlets and valenticite).

Antonius

Tahquil said:

Incantation is good for mobs that break your limbs a lot. You can incant with a broken arm, but you cant gut. I think?

The benefit of incantation is that you can do it with both arms broken, whereas you need one arm free for gut. UW scorpions are the classic example of when it's really good, but I can't see why you'd choose to use a (generally) worse attack when you can just prioritise arms above legs (except when prone) and continue to use gut.

Aegoth

someone should test fully artied incantation. i can provide collar and sash

Sarathai

I logged some data for 22 STR bashing with Tfang versus Gut against buckawn swordsmen (it's at 22 STR because of L3 gauntlets and a TF, not Jera, though Jera would have the same effect here with +1 STR - unfortunately I can't get 18 STR numbers at present).

Because I'm bad at mathing, for those interested I've put the raw text on Pastebin, for others ( @Sena in particular) to take apart and check for % damage and balance speeds:

http://pastebin.com/RGnP3bT8 <-- Tfang.
http://pastebin.com/DKa0Q6Tp <-- Gut.

Since I'm on an Australian ping I have queueing in both. Dragoncraft AB files list Gut as 3s balance, which seems fairly straightforward. I also made sure that I didn't have Eleusis' current Harmony (+10% damage) at the time.

Anecdotally, I've noticed that in testing places with Tfang my clear times for some areas (Catacombs, Sirocco, Prin, Fissure) appear to be higher, ranging from 3-4 minutes up to about 10 minutes or more. The Fissure was the worst - it was actually starting to respawn the spiders while I was finishing out a clear even in an otherwise fast run.