Fleeing as a central combat mechanic

Kenway

I think at the moment the glaring issue in the combat scene is not scripting or anything player driven but rather the trend thats going on of things being built around fleeing. Generally, when im fighting, i want to fight that person. When i die and go huh what am i supposed to do there how do i cure against that and the genuine answer is "run away" thats just annoying. I dont know of a single person who enjoys this mechanic be it with alchemist 2h occie priest whatever. I think serpent is a good example of how this -does- work well where leaving the room on a snap can save your life but that allows you to go right back to fighting, thats a strategic movement rather than just ceasing the fight for several seconds because thats the "cure". Its annoying to fight against because it feels futile and its frustrating to fight -as- for the very same reason. This too, i think is partly a symptom of the transition of combat to account for 'perfect' offenses being more common place but i think it needs some urgent attention because ive seen a few newer players disappear because of it and a lot of older players take extended breaks from fighting because its so frustratingly countered to what we actually enjoy as fighters

Kenway

Also didnt say this since i just c/p'd my thoughts from another thread but obviously very curious to hear thoughts/comments on the topic.

Kiet

Nothing you can do about it until you rework the way prep works (or rework combat entirely)

Kenway

Kiet said:

Nothing you can do about it until you rework the way prep works (or rework combat entirely)

Not sure what you mean, could you expand? To me this seems to be a momentum issue rather than a prep one. Only prep i can think of that this applies to is bstar with impaleslash?

Kiet

Like I've posted several times before, the reason momentum classes are currently designed like this is because before they were buffed to this level prep classes were just 500x better if both opponents played perfectly. When you only have to be in the room for one hit at a time, you have no reason to ever stick around. The counter to this is to make it harder to leave (all the momentum classes have some sort of way to keep you in room now), and to make momentum classes do a lot more before you can leave.

There is no possible way to balance aff momentum vs limb prep that doesn't end up like this or a rework of limb damage entirely. Aetolia, for instance, just has restoration heal a certain amount of limb damage  (rather than levels of it) whether the limb is broken or not, so people have to apply while being prepped or something like that. An Aetolian could explain better!

Calira

Kenway said:

Not sure what you mean, could you expand? To me this seems to be a momentum issue rather than a prep one. Only prep i can think of that this applies to is bstar with impaleslash?

What he means is that there is a lot less fleeing in momentum vs. momentum, since both sides have something to lose by fleeing and both sides usually have more tools to hinder the opponent without having to run. Prep classes lose nothing (or much less) of their own progress by fleeing and usually have less ability to hinder while they prep, creating a situation where fleeing often is not only optimal, it's mandatory. Taken to its logical conclusion, you end up with a situation where prep strategies should always run before momentum ones have any chance to gain traction.

Kiet said:
There is no possible way to balance aff momentum vs limb prep that doesn't end up like this or a rework of limb damage entirely.

I don't think this is true. Reducing perfectly reliable, commitment-free escape options while also slightly reducing the strength of momentum classes (or increasing the hinder potential of prep ones) across the board would help mitigate the issue. Hybrid mechanics like DWB momentum that give prep classes a momentum requirement are a great idea, as is designing momentum classes with access to prep tools like Vodun or limb damage.

Kenway

Kiet said:

Stuff

I could just have had an outlier experience but serpent occie priest and apostate never seemed to me to be worse off against prep classes. Fully recognizing that all but serpent there had room hinder already, i will also point out that current bard does very very well without any room hinder and pre-pinshot serpent was still one of the most competative classes played.

Kiet

I don't know what to tell you other than no. 5+ years ago: priest wasn't even a momentum class, really, occie sucked, apostate was impossible to die against if you knew what you were doing. I'm not sure when pinshot was added, butserpent was super easily survivable class once you learned how to cheese it. Also what made serpent really good was darkshade + hypochondria changes + slickness stripping sileris among other things, pinshot was only part of it.

Bard does well because it's not a pure momentum class and has limb breaks + free prone to hinder people running

Antonius

Alchemist and Occultist, while affliction momentum classes, aren't designed in the same way as classes like Serpent or Bard. It's a mistake to group them together, or to think that we're talking about the latter at all here. How difficult you are to kill when fighting a Serpent or Bard is in large part dependent on how good you are at making smart, on the fly decisions about what afflictions to cure. How difficult you are to kill when fighting an Alchemist or Occultist is (almost) entirely dependent on how often you run. They're not a counter to slow prep classes, they instead force you to fight like that even if you don't want to.

The issue is classes that are essentially built around pure volume of afflictions rather than specific ones. You can make smart curing choices against a Serpent to greatly reduce the need to run. The only smart choice you can make against an Alchemist is to run. Serpent's ability to outpace your curing is required, but not just as a counter to prep classes. The latter is a ridiculous situation that is both needless and awful design.

Kiet

Yeah occie and alchy are on an entirely different level, but they were obviously designed with the mindset behind the buffs the other aff class got.

Armali

Serpent feels like playing sheer volume to me. Ten seconds in and I have darkshade weariness clumsiness, two loki bites, and they just about to dstab curare/kalmia and snap about 1s before they regain bal so they can lock me.

That's just my experience, anyways.

Kiet

That's a weird thing to say as an alchemist

Armali

How is that strange?

Kiet

As Antonius explained, alchemist/occy are the sheer volume aff classes.

Armali

So how does that make my statement that in my experience, serpent feels like the exact same sort of class 'strange'?

Calira

Alchemist isn't really sheer aff volume. It's a timebomb that mandates you leave the room before reaching 4 phlegmatic. In terms of aff volume, nothing compares to hypnosis, hypochondria, passive loki and being hammered by ~1.7s dstabs.

Jarrod

Ok, to explain it another way.

There's a proper way to cure vs the various Serpent offenses.

There is not a proper way to cure vs Occie or Alch.

Armali

That may be true.

I know that if you stand in room against an alchemist and don't do anything but turtle (lyre doesn't count, but shield-looping does), eventually, I will be able to lock and kill you.

I don't know if the same can be said of serpent, where if you just stand in room and cure (optimally)/turtle, you'll never die. Can you?

Antonius

There are things you can do about Serpent which don't require you to leave the room (even if that's the easiest way to survive). Saving tree for when they snap, or even after the lock, since they won't have paralysis on you would help, as does switching your priorities and using any active cures to avoid being forced as easily into dangerous situations. Serpent needs specific afflictions so it threatens at specific times. If they fail to lock you, they have to reset hypnosis and their stack all over again, and you can make it considerably harder to lock you by curing in a smart way.

Against an Alchemist, your choices are: cure paralysis so you can attack or run, cure locking afflictions so you don't get locked, cure humours so you don't die to one of the inundate strategies. You'll notice that none of those choices are actually good ones, since all three lead to your death (they just change what you die to). The only way to not die is to run away, and that's not fun for either side.

When I talk about affliction volume, I'm not talking about who can deliver the most afflictions in a given amount of time. I'm talking about the fact that the mechanics are more about the number of afflictions you have on the target rather than the specific combination of afflictions you have on the target. Occultist is the best example of this, since Cadmus is any three from a pretty large number of afflictions (almost all of the ones that Instill and Bloodleech give) and Hecate is basically any five afflictions.

Calira

One could argue that it's all moot, since leaving the room is still both the easiest and most effective means of surviving a Serpent.

Keorin

Personally, as someone without a ton of health, 2h is probably my least favorite incarnation of this. Particularly given isaz/piety/gravehands/hugalaz procs combined with fractures being both inevitable and further hindering, I feel like I often have to leave the room every two to three hits.

At least against alchemist/occie there are some things you can do to cure or play defense. They're not great options, but at least it's not like 2h where shielding or trying to turtle is even worse then just standing still.

I'm well aware that this is largely due to my health levels, and the ranges of health needed to try and compete these days is probably another topic altogether, but 2h does seem to be designed so that there are essentially just no options for counterplay other then playing run around the arena until things cure off/you sip back up (while avoiding someone with engage).

Armali

Returning to the topic on hand, I voted that I enjoyed this trend because despite despising the effect it has on my class, I feel it increases the skill ceiling and presents challenges that need to be overcome that revolve more around playing against the /player/ than playing against the /class/. On the defender's side, you need to recognize what your opponent can do, and what circumstances mean you need to gtfo. As the attacker, you need to get into your opponent's head and tailor your offense so that your opponent isn't provoked to run until it's too late.

Being a momentum class, I speak of this more in the perspective as someone who needs to deal with running, rather than as someone who needs to run (though I certainly need to do that too!). As one, and as someone used to having to deal with and having to come up with ways to get around it, I'm more inclined to forgive others for doing so. You don't need to apologize to me if you fly/slow prep because I get it, that's how you're going to survive and win and I would do the exact same thing in your position.

Armali

Kiet said:

Like I've posted several times before, the reason momentum classes are currently designed like this is because before they were buffed to this level prep classes were just 500x better if both opponents played perfectly. When you only have to be in the room for one hit at a time, you have no reason to ever stick around. The counter to this is to make it harder to leave (all the momentum classes have some sort of way to keep you in room now), and to make momentum classes do a lot more before you can leave.

There is no possible way to balance aff momentum vs limb prep that doesn't end up like this or a rework of limb damage entirely. Aetolia, for instance, just has restoration heal a certain amount of limb damage  (rather than levels of it) whether the limb is broken or not, so people have to apply while being prepped or something like that. An Aetolian could explain better!

Aetolia sidesteps prep vs. mo because there is no prep. There are no prep mechanics -- Vodun/Puppetry doesn't exist, all semi-prep requires significant momentum to achieve (unlike Occie truename harvesting) and you can apply restoration salve whenever you want (even before a break) and it will STILL cure damage, effectively turning limb-based combat into another momentum thing (you're trying to get around their parry and their restoration applications to achieve the breaks you need for your kill).

In effect, Aetolia is all momentum vs. momentum. Which, I mean, people say that same type fights are enjoyable so IDK. Maybe we should just turn Achaea into all prep vs. prep?

Farrah

Just make everything a hybrid!

I'm not a fan of everything coming down to purely how "well" you cure, because no one even cures manually so it's purely a matter of more scripting. And once you got the scripting right, you'd be immune and momentum classes would be pointless.

In terms of serp vs occie/alchie, it all still comes down to the serpent not being good enough or you shielding/running. You can't outcure a good serpent anymore than you can outcure a good alchemist or occultist. Shield is more effective against them (largely because of the rebounding/shield double defense), but I don't think shield is inherently more fun than running.

Kenway

Okay so things im seeing mentioned.
1. Serpent and bard are not in the same category and alchie occie etc: Yeah but the point for bringing them up wasnt really to compare them against the running issue but rather to point out that momentum can clearly work and work very well without the run or die mechanics.
2. Slow prep is annoying and the reason that this form of momentum exists in the first place: Sure but it also makes slow prep the best/only way to fight so clearly its not the best solution right?
3. The many branching kill paths are the main issue(at least with alchie)  : id honestly not really considered that but it is a good point. A lot of classes have multiple kills but they dont typically build off of one another and its typically one or two rather than three or four.

Szanthax

Kenway said:

Okay so things im seeing mentioned.
1. Serpent and bard are not in the same category and alchie occie etc: Yeah but the point for bringing them up wasnt really to compare them against the running issue but rather to point out that momentum can clearly work and work very well without the run or die mechanics.
2. Slow prep is annoying and the reason that this form of momentum exists in the first place: Sure but it also makes slow prep the best/only way to fight so clearly its not the best solution right?
3. The many branching kill paths are the main issue(at least with alchie)  : id honestly not really considered that but it is a good point. A lot of classes have multiple kills but they dont typically build off of one another and its typically one or two rather than three or four.

I actually think the idea is to get all classes like alchie where they have 4 different kill paths and whomever defends the best and gets to their end wins

Khel

Aetolian here, as requested.

Pre-Resto is a mechanic that gets rid of the prep->execute stage, which means limb classes are momentum-based as well. For the example, instead of 'points' like everyone counts with here, we're going to use percentages. 33% limb damage = a resto break. Snk does 10%, hkp does 5%. So a full combo to the right leg does 20%, leaving you 20/33% broken. If I apply restoration to my damaged leg, and you hit my left leg, instead of curing the resto break that doesn't exist, it cures the residual damage instead. So now my previously damaged right leg now has 0/33% and my left leg (the one you hit) has 20/33%. This makes it so that if I run away to heal up from your affs, you can keep repairing your limbs too- we both reset the fight if one of us runs.

For the other case, if my leg's at 20/33% and you hit my leg again (40/33% now) it breaks, my resto apply ticks and it cures the resto break and leaves a small bit of damage on my leg (so maybe 3/33%), if my health is low. I personally hate this part of it, but there you have it.

Aylek

even if things were changed so that you didn't have to run v the current must run classes, people would still run.

personally I think classes like alchemist and occultist (especially occultist) are pretty absurd, being able to code makes them insane as the level for error (#of affs as opposed to quality) makes them borderline impossible (occie especially with how you can be dead in a matter of seconds) to fight in room, especially with movable hinder. Similarly, priest, on a slightly lesser scale, it's really more quantity than quality re affs. If that aspect is changed I could see people running less, but it won't stop it, it would just mean they can have a wider margin of RNG to leave the room and still survive, where as now hitting tentacles/homunculus twice/three times is pretty much death. 

Some classes are just ridiculous to fight by staying in the room for more than 3-4 hits due to the level of selective input from the user. 

Omor

Personally, I like to just duke it out, but I also like the fact that it's not as simple as "X class beats Y class if both are playing perfectly". The mechanic to run and prevent someone's momentum/affs to stack is going to be used whether or not it's required, so in my opinion, just play as you feel works. If you have a fuck ton of affs, run before you get locked, or die. I don't see how completely reworking combat to make it so you don't *have* to run will change anything, because good combatants will still back out when they see the kill coming.

Cynlael

Omor said:

because good combatants will still back out when they see the kill coming.

@Mizik does not live by this statement, at all. He's like basically perma Yolo-mode.

Anedhel

I actually don't mind having to run. What I -do- mind is that the classes you have to run from most take -ages- to cure so you can get back to fighting. Anything where you have to sit around for more than twenty seconds just eating herbs and spamming shields to get back to I-can-hit-you status is boring, and clumsy. If there were something like restore for tempers, it'd be fine, but it feels like you basically have to change entire areas to get away from Alchemists and 2h to heal up completely, and that's goofy.