Retardation

Aegoth

Something I've been thinking about. Retardation is a fun skill to have in certain situations. However, Retardation also makes it impossible to balance the class in any agreeable way because 99% of the game dreads and fears Retardation, the very thought of the skill being the focus of tales to make bad children behave, "Else the Ret Monster will eat your toes!"

First, I will preface this with saying I love fighting in Retardation. I find it fun and challenging. What I don't like is having to fight -other- people in Retardation. What I mean by this is that dropping ret quickly because a game of "spam the brazier", which makes it no fun at all, or "cheese the sleep lock", which isn't any fun for the opponent.

I want to suggest something radical: remove retardation from the game. Why? Because the top 1% of the top 10%... erm, uhh... I mean, I want to make changes to Magi to make it a more dynamic class to play, and to open up more options for magi to have defensively and offensively. Without the looming threat of the Ret Monster above our heads, it'll be easier to make suggestions to make healthy changes to the class. What are everyone's thoughts?

Saeva

I adore retardation. I think it's so fun. I love the change it can make in groups, for good or bad.

That being said. I'd be glad to see retardation go if it meant the skillset didn't have to be so bland. Smash smash X 7 instakill is just.... not fun. The things you can do in ret are still fun but I agree with the brazier mania. 

Also, destabilisation: amazing concept, for groups in particular it's a really great way to screw your whole entire team over. I'd prefer to see it using targetable effects instead of just ...never getting used because it's going to make your whole team hate you. Plus if you're 1v1 it's already going to only effect the target you're fighting. Win win.

Dochitha

It's fine cos
- You can chain multiple action into an alias and queue that alias, all the actions go through
- You can have up to 9 actions in a single alias
- You can line up the cures you need into that alias, to go through with your offense too
- You can clot in retardation, outr, eat, sip, tree, shield, wake, smoke, and still hit at the same time.

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/495e32be

Cos it's bugged, as much as I believe it is. @Wyd don't hate me...

Atalkez

It's been bugged already.

Wyd

Yeah, I've sent in a bug about it, and I'm sure others have in the past

Tael

I would be pretty devastated to see retardation go.

It's one of the most unique abilities in the game and it's especially neat in that it's symmetric - dropping ret doesn't directly benefit you, it's only to your benefit if you're better at making use of it than your opponent is. It's the Achaean equivalent of turning off the lights and fighting in the dark because, even though it means you can't see either, you're wagering that you're more practiced at fighting in the dark than they are.

It seems like the main problem with retardation is that people feel like leaving the vibe is usually a better option than fighting in it. I wonder if a better solution isn't some sort of engage-like mechanic to discourage just trying to run the moment retardation goes down?

I'm not really sure how I see how retardation precludes making magi combat more dynamic either.

Khel

Tael said:

I would be pretty devastated to see retardation go.

It's one of the most unique abilities in the game and it's especially neat in that it's symmetric - dropping ret doesn't directly benefit you, it's only to your benefit if you're better at making use of it than your opponent is. It's the Achaean equivalent of turning off the lights and fighting in the dark because, even though it means you can't see either, you're wagering that you're more practiced at fighting in the dark than they are.

It seems like the main problem with retardation is that people feel like leaving the vibe is usually a better option than fighting in it. I wonder if a better solution isn't some sort of engage-like mechanic to discourage just trying to run the moment retardation goes down?

I'm not really sure how I see how retardation precludes making magi combat more dynamic either.

Because any fancy/snazzy skills that require more thought to cure/counter are argued against with 'you can just drop ret and do x to insta-win'. For instance, and this is a terrible example, imagine a skill that strips insomnia/puts you to sleep. You want this skill because hey, it's a good way to prone/drain their mana by forcing insomnia/whatever. But you can't have it because if you combine it with retardation, a skill with niche appeal suddenly becomes amazing. So instead of having to play a boring/straightforward to cure class (to make up for your ability to turn off the lights at will), ditch the one 'unique' mechanic in exchange for some less powerful unique skills that make fighting as magi more fun.

At least, that's my understanding of it?

Tael

I guess I feel like the number of abilities like that, abilities that would be outrageously strong in retardation, is relatively small compared to the number of possible abilities that could make magi more dynamic. It's hard for me to imagine that someone proposing ways to make magi more dynamic would just be constantly at odds with the existence of retardation.

It seems more to me like the idea is that people who are wrong will complain about making magi more dynamic because magi also has access to retardation - the you already have a fun, unique mechanic, you shouldn't get to have any more! people. But that's not really a balance problem or a reason to get rid of retardation, that's just an issue of people being wrong.

And this is all ignoring the existence of non-magi classes that already have extremely strong abilities under retardation.

Kaden

I actually think the argument of x might be more powerful if a class had retardation is a lot more true in the past when vibes still worked in ret rather than now where it's a lot more riskier to fight against any class in ret with some being harder than others thanks to their faster rate of affliction.

I will say that removing ret entirely would probably remove the only dynamic ability magi has left now that it's been brought in line with other classes but I am biased and absolutely adored old magi for letting me get away with average technical knowledge but different and crazy ways to kill someone. Like how I realized that evade was also a serpent's weakness as much as it was their solution to ret (hello balance loss from evading into a room). I was also that weird guy who actually loved magi vs. magi combat, so I may actually just be a psychopath come to think of it.  

Personally I felt that the actual problem with old mage had more to do with how crazy good it gets damage-wise as well as some really niche but cheesy abilities (looking at you hellfumes). And I did notice that in the combat season just before artificing was rolled out. Every other mage I ran into in ranked spars were either artied to the teeth and leaned on their incredible damage (I'd go from green health to dead in dragon if I wasn't really careful) or just used hellfumes and waited it out.

I honestly think it'd have been better if we got destabilize as a class skill because it'd have been a risk-reward proposition between gaining advantage from wrecking one of your vibes while shortening that timer you had to kill someone. People may disagree but I am rather open about my dislike that magi kill routes feel like its been taken from the same cookie-cutter as other classes.

Szanthax

I think we should change ... the name.

Mithil

I'm still pretty new to the class and learning (don't have an active Targossian Magi to learn from) and I really haven't used it a lot.  But some of the spars and duels I've had one person ask, "No Ret?".  Still trying to get a handle on what I feel are clunky Artificing abilities.  Also feel like Holocaust is kind of a let down.

Sarathai

Mithil said:

Also feel like Holocaust is kind of a let down.

@Aegoth

Antonius

Holocaust really shines in groups if you're happy/willing to kill your allies as well as your enemies, but not necessarily that much in 1v1 fights where it's harder to keep your target in the room if they don't want to be there.

Rangor

holobombs before leg breaks are pretty hot.

Aegoth

A deep rumbling ensues across the landscape, with pillars of fire bursting forth from the ground! Angels from the heavens weep in sorrow while even the mighty inferno daemons quail in sheer terror! For 'lo, HE is nigh! The Holocaust King doth survey his demesne with palpable hatred, a cruel grin spreading across his malignant countenance as he puts women and children to flame, husbands thrust unto the lakes of fire! Yea, for all shall perish at the hands of the Holocaust King!  At long last, he affixes his mighty gaze upon @Mithil and beckons the meek, complacent Magi to him.

My son, what knowledge doth ye seek from the Holocaust King?

Kaden

Didn't really like using holocaust. Most of my successes one on one with them was when I teamed them at 60 and 56 and watched my opponent enter the room again and assume the bombs had gone off.

Borran

Retardation is Retarded. 

Jeslyn

Aegoth said:

A deep rumbling ensues across the landscape, with pillars of fire bursting forth from the ground! Angels from the heavens weep in sorrow while even the mighty inferno daemons quail in sheer terror! For 'lo, HE is nigh! The Holocaust King doth survey his demesne with palpable hatred, a cruel grin spreading across his malignant countenance as he puts women and children to flame, husbands thrust unto the lakes of fire! Yea, for all shall perish at the hands of the Holocaust King!  At long last, he affixes his mighty gaze upon @Mithil and beckons the meek, complacent Magi to him.

My son, what knowledge doth ye seek from the Holocaust King?

I absolutely love you for this. I laughed so hard.